Who Should Be The Criminal?

[Robertsxxx]

We don’t have to necessarily make abortion illegal to end it. Simply make it harder to get while simultaneously offering assistance and support for women and girls who would be tempted to seek out abortions would do much to curb this out of control industry of death.

The abortion industry has used the law and the courts to push their agenda all across the globe. Well, why not beat them at their own game using similar methods?

If you manage to set up a perfect system where women would not even want to chose abortion because of the support or other help received, that would be great
But currently that is no the case.

Furthermore, I am pretty sure that even then there would still be women who would want to not carry the possible child.

 

[neat62]

It is also known, that almost anything can be reasoned, and hence, justified. Humanity has been slaughtering each since creation, that slaughter has always been reasoned and, in some people’s minds, justified. The same goes for abortion. The real issue is, who can stop it and how to stop it. Eric Rudolph certainly used reason and justification for his acts. Although his acts were in response to another act, not out of fear, selfishness, money, or self percieved superior intelligence.

Both sides have reason and justification. The real question is: Who has the will and the guts to win?

 

[neat62]

Drilling4Truth;

We don’t have to necessarily make abortion illegal to end it. Simply make it harder to get while simultaneously offering assistance and support for women and girls who would be tempted to seek out abortions would do much to curb this out of control industry of death.

Won’t work. It isn’t working now on a mass scale. Everything today is about women. If they can’t get help now, then they aren’t looking. But it’s not always about help. A great many abortions are done out of simple selfishness by people who do not want help, they want recklessness.

The abortion industry has used the law and the courts to push their agenda all across the globe. Well, why not beat them at their own game using similar methods?

Because the pro life side does not have the will or the guts to fight abortion the same way as the pro aborts do. The legislature will have to put restrictions on abortion, but 1) They won’t and 2) The pro aborts will contest it in court and will win.

There is very little the pro life side can to to end or even to restrict abortion. Very little, that is, without using measures that may seem *un Christian-like *to some. (IE: civil disobedience)

 

[Drilling4Truth]

If you manage to set up a perfect system where women would not even want to chose abortion because of the support or other help received, that would be great
But currently that is no the case.

Furthermore, I am pretty sure that even then there would still be women who would want to not carry the possible child.

I don’t advocate for a “perfect system”. I advocate for one that views children as something more than just burdens, as a high profile politician described them not long ago.

As it is, there are many services that already exist to help women who are pregnant. But, these organizations don’t receive near as much funding from the government as Planned Parenthood does, oddly enough. But, that trend is starting to change. My congressman and senators know where I stand on the issue of Planned Parenthood funding, does yours?

This battle to end abortion will continue to be long and hard fought. But, it’s one of the most remarkable things you’ll see in Pro-Life marches; how many young people are active.

 

[crowonsnow]

We don’t have to necessarily make abortion illegal to end it. Simply make it harder to get…

I really don’t know what your abortion industry is exactly, but you have an interesting perspective. I was referring to the OP and criminality.

digression

Drilling4Truth:

Hitler was democratically elected to power.

Hitler was never as you say, “democratically elected to power.” He was appointed chancellor by Hindenburg after much political maneuvering. The Nazi Party never had majority support and was always internally factionalized just like any other organization.

/digression

 

[marietta]

neat62 writes:

" . . . the pro life side does not have the will or the guts to fight abortion the same way as the pro aborts do."

Why do you suppose that is?

marietta

 

[survive]

For the record, the child’s nervous system begins developing a few scant days after fertilization, the brain begins forming mere days later and by the time Mama’s period is due the child is moving independently, turning his head side-to-side, wriggling little bud arms and forming eyes and ears that may already work to some degree. At three weeks the child has a doll face with big black eyes that have moved to the front, lips, the beginning of eyelids, arms long enough to start forming elbows, little legs, little paddle-like fingerless hands, and the pseudotail, which was the spine of course, is gone, because she has grown along it. The eyes definitely react to light then, and the ears to loud sudden noises. Brain activity is so constant at four weeks that he has recognizably human brainwaves. Two weeks after that, she sleeps, wakes up, swims gracefully and swiftly around in several directions, shows a wide range of facial expressions, feels the cord and her hands and feet with her fingertips, hugs herself, and has every organ she will ever have, most of them up and running the way they will all her life. Only the lining of the lungs, the fatty deposits, the reproductive system, a few of the slower-growing brain lobes (corpus callossum e.g.), parts of the immune system and pancreatic system, myelin sheathes and other last-minute finishing touches still need time. Of course, she won’t use her repoductive system to reproduce (its central purpose) until she is at least adolescent, but preferably later than that. However, it is already working to feminize her body and brain by producing hormones. If the child is male, his reproductive system is producing hormones to masculinize his body and brain. That is at six weeks after conception (eight weeks gestational age, four weeks after Mama had any reason to suspect pregnancy at all.) Abortion is extremely rare that early.
It’s fairly normal to miss a period and then have the next a week or two late without being pregnant, so she might not even suspect pregnancy until the child is seven weeks along – there are no signs or symptoms of pregnancy until much later than that. Also, sometimes the first and even the second “missed” period is actually present but very light, so many women don’t know until even later. Even if she gets the OTC test the day it was expected to start, it’s sometimes falsely negative at that early stage.
The frontier of viability is now moving into the late part of the first half of a normal term. The challenge is the lungs. Other than that, a second-trimester child is identical to a nine-monther only a lot shorter, a whole lot skinnier, and therefore needing to be fed more frequently and kept warmer. There are also slight immune deficiencies, but nothing an incubator doesn’t take care of. The key difference between a baby of nine months and a baby of half that age is the lining of the tiny lungs.

 

[neat62]

A fun little video I found from Catholic News Agency.

Fun & Games

 

[jmcrae]

An individual without brain formation is vastly different from a human being with a functioning brain that has been temporarily incapacitated. The person who has been drugged will eventually sober up and can try to fill in any blanks where pieces of an event are missing. A feetus which has no brain or an undeveloped brain, hence no sensation or memory, is in no danger of forgetting or feeling a surgical abortion.

marietta

What about in the afterlife? After all, the child has an immortal human soul, given at the moment of conception, and will go ultimately either to Heaven or to Hell.

She or he will find out what happened, with a clarity that cannot be matched here on earth, and what could be worse than finding out that your own mother’s doctor killed you - whatever the reason may have been?

 

[jmcrae]

If you manage to set up a perfect system where women would not even want to chose abortion because of the support or other help received, that would be great

This would be the first step.

But currently that is no the case.

Sadly, no. But, why not? Is it not precisely because it’s easier and cheaper to get an abortion than to support a child? Are we not selling out the future of our great continent, for the sake of a few dollars?

Furthermore, I am pretty sure that even then there would still be women who would want to not carry the possible child.

This is another part of the problem - people think that the child in their womb is only a “potentiality” - they don’t realize that it’s already a child - a human being, with an immortal soul, who will stand at the Judgment Day right alongside the rest of us, to tell his or her story.

 

[Robertsxxx]

Sadly, no. But, why not? Is it not precisely because it’s easier and cheaper to get an abortion than to support a child?
You must be joking…

Anyway, I checked up the prices for abortion just out of curiousity. First trimester abortions cost about $300 - $600 (depends where you live) + there might be insurance coverage.
How much do you think it costs to support one child, both physically well off & provide with enough money so they could get a good education + all the time/effort spend on bringing the kid up.

Are we not selling out the future of our great continent, for the sake of a few dollars?

How so? Is there a lack of children?

This is another part of the problem - people think that the child in their womb is only a “potentiality” - they don’t realize that it’s already a child - a human being, with an immortal soul, who will stand at the Judgment Day right alongside the rest of us, to tell his or her story.

That’s arguable; especially the soul part, but I’m not gonna go into this one here

 

[Robertsxxx]

What about in the afterlife? After all, the child has an immortal human soul, given at the moment of conception, and will go ultimately either to Heaven or to Hell.

She or he will find out what happened, with a clarity that cannot be matched here on earth, and what could be worse than finding out that your own mother’s doctor killed you - whatever the reason may have been?

Wait, people age in the afterlife? Can you direct me to where you came to this conclusion from?

Furthermore, I think it’s 60% (or higher) of conception that ends in spontaneous abortion; hasn’t heaven run out of space by now?

Moreover, where are you getting from that those children/other people will get access to all the information?

 

[jmcrae]

That’s arguable; especially the soul part, but I’m not gonna go into this one here

“Arguable,” how?

The soul is the life of the body. (The word for “soul” is “anima”, as in “Anima Christi” - “Soul of Christ” - which is also the root word of “to animate” which is, to make it move)

The body in the womb has nothing in it except for human DNA; thus, it is a human body - therefore, that which makes it move - its soul - is a human soul - which the Bible tells us is immortal.

Wait, people age in the afterlife? Can you direct me to where you came to this conclusion from?

No, of course not - but they are given all knowledge of all things, as we are told in the Book of Revelation.

Furthermore, I think it’s 60% (or higher) of conception that ends in spontaneous abortion; hasn’t heaven run out of space by now?

For the time being, until the end of the world, it is our souls only that go to Heaven (assuming that we go to Heaven - there are also some who go to Hell, as well), and our souls don’t actually occupy any space. (Neither does Heaven, that I know of, since at present, it is a spiritual place, not a physical place.) On the Last Day, when we are all raised up from the dead, God will create a new Heaven and a new Earth, with sufficient space for everyone who is going to be there.

Moreover, where are you getting from that those children/other people will get access to all the information?

It’s in the Bible - Revelation 20:11-15.

 

[Robertsxxx]

No, of course not - but they are given all knowledge of all things, as we are told in the Book of Revelation.

…So… they don’t age… so there ae a bunch of fetuses & embryos floating around in heaven? Furthermore, they are geniuses since they can compehend & analyze data presented to them, moreover, have the brain capacity, which according to the development they don’t even have yet, to process all of this.

Thank you for the verse reference, I looked it up & it continually repeats “they were judged every man according to their works”. How does that include these children?

Moreover, those verses you pointed do not say anything about the ones being judged getting to possess all the information.

 

[jmcrae]

…So… they don’t age… so there ae a bunch of fetuses & embryos floating around in heaven?

Their souls are, yes.

Furthermore, they are geniuses since they can compehend & analyze data presented to them, moreover, have the brain capacity, which according to the development they don’t even have yet, to process all of this.

None of us are going to have physical brains in Heaven - at least, not until after the Resurrection, on the Day of Judgment. Yet, just like Mary and all of the other Saints do now, we will all know what’s going on.

Thank you for the verse reference, I looked it up & it continually repeats “they were judged every man according to their works”. How does that include these children?

Obviously, they have no sins - nothing by which to “merit” Hell. Equally obviously, they have no good deeds, either, and have never experienced the Sacraments - thus, nothing by which to “merit” Heaven, either. I have no idea how they will be judged. The Church does not answer this question - we simply do not know what will happen to their souls, in the end. We trust in God’s mercy, and in the fact that God desires all human beings to go to Heaven. It seems unlikely that they would refuse to go to Heaven, but who can predict another person’s behaviour?

Moreover, those verses you pointed do not say anything about the ones being judged getting to possess all the information.

If you look at the whole section there, it refers to all things being revealed. There is also the 8th chapter of the Epistle to the Romans, and the 25th chapter of the Gospel According to Matthew.

 

[Valke2]

In the case of an abortion, who should be considered the criminal?

The doctor or the woman?

And should the woman go to a friend to help her pay or obtain an abortion, should that friend be held criminally liable as well?

If, as so many on these boards believe, abortion is murder, than the woman is the murderer. The doctor is a co-conspirator. As there have been about 40 million abortions, we have at least 30 million murderers at large

Is anyone here related to any of these murderers?

 

[Robertsxxx]

None of us are going to have physical brains in Heaven - at least, not until after the Resurrection, on the Day of Judgment. Yet, just like Mary and all of the other Saints do now, we will all know what’s going on.

However, once again if they have no brain, no ability to learn or what to process info with, how can they evaluate the information?? They are just an empty foating energy or whatever you want to call it, without any mind or thought.

Obviously, they have no sins - nothing by which to “merit” Hell. Equally obviously, they have no good deeds, either, and have never experienced the Sacraments - thus, nothing by which to “merit” Heaven, either. I have no idea how they will be judged. The Church does not answer this question - we simply do not know what will happen to their souls, in the end. We trust in God’s mercy, and in the fact that God desires all human beings to go to Heaven. It seems unlikely that they would refuse to go to Heaven, but who can predict another person’s behaviour?

So no clear answer was given in the scriptures, so you’re assuming that because God is loving they will go to heaven, which makes sense; nevretheless, aren’t then people that abort children or kill infants for that matter, doing them a favour by buying a straight ticket to heaven without the possibility of sinning & having a fall out with God during their mortal life?

 

[jmcrae]

However, once again if they have no brain, no ability to learn or what to process info with, how can they evaluate the information??

How do any of us? Since we all lose all function in our brains when we die, right?

They are just an empty foating energy or whatever you want to call it, without any mind or thought.

If so, then it’s the same for everyone else, too. Yet, in the Book of Revelation, we see the Saints talking to God, asking Him questions, worshipping Him, singing hymns, etc. All without functional brains. So I certainly think that the unborn will have the same abilities as the rest of us, since they have perfectly functional souls, just like the rest of us do.

So no clear answer was given in the scriptures, so you’re assuming that because God is loving they will go to heaven, which makes sense; nevretheless, aren’t then people that abort children or kill infants for that matter, doing them a favour by buying a straight ticket to heaven without the possibility of sinning & having a fall out with God during their mortal life?

Well - they are also not baptized, which means that they still bear Adam’s original sin on their souls. So, we simply don’t know.

We lock up murderers, not because we don’t think the victims went to Heaven (most people assume that murder victims go to Heaven, I think), but because society in general thinks that people should be able to live their lives without fear of being murdered.

 

[kage_ar]

No, that is not comparable. Because we as a democracy have decided what we want. You are suggesting Germany was a democracy?

Really? Was the legalization of abortion put on the ballot so the citizens of the USA could decide? No, it was decided by a few judges.

I’m all for putting it to a national vote. Let’s let the citizens of a democracy decide!

 

[crowonsnow]

If, as so many on these boards believe, abortion is murder, than the woman is the murderer. The doctor is a co-conspirator. As there have been about 40 million abortions, we have at least 30 million murderers at large

Is anyone here related to any of these murderers?

I think you’ve just exposed the hypocrisy of equating abortion with murder.