Who Should Be The Criminal?

[Gamera]

If, as so many on these boards believe, abortion is murder, than the woman is the murderer. The doctor is a co-conspirator. As there have been about 40 million abortions, we have at least 30 million murderers at large

Is anyone here related to any of these murderers?

I don’t understand the question — are you suggesting that one’s opinion of the legality of abortion should depend on whether they are related to someone who is a murderer? Why not ask, “Is anyone here related to a baby who was beheaded by abortion?” Isn’t that an equally relevant question?

 

[Gamera]

I think you’ve just exposed the hypocrisy of equating abortion with murder.

How? Anyone related to the murderer, is by definition also related to the baby who got killed. Where is there “hypocrisy?”

 

[jmcrae]

I think you’ve just exposed the hypocrisy of equating abortion with murder.

Yes, because anyone that I am related to is, by virtue of that fact, without sin, and therefore, if they had an abortion, it was not actually a sin, due to the fact that they are related to me.

(The above is meant sarcastically.)

 

[survive]

A close relation of mine was a babykiller, as was I. I paid for my crime in the suffering that followed my deed, which I think was fairly proportionate, since I almost died and since the deed wasn’t my idea and I did put up some fight against it. I wouldn’t want anyone else who brought children to be aborted to go through what I already went through, but of course a repeat offender who freely made the decision understanding what it actually was, should face some kind of charges. As to repentance before God, I have done that and been absolved. I am forgiven for the horrible thing I did. Thank God! I also forgive others and don’t judge them as people. The intense pressure put on young women to let their children be killed is mindboggling, and is a mitigating factor, though not a total excuse unless they are actually forced, which has happened several times lately.
The abortionist is in a different category, as I see it. He is a professional child-killer. He postures as a medical doctor who heals and protects life, while actually he is the furthest thing from that (unless he does both separately). I see professional hit men who encourage the wider society to treat them as pillars of the community in a particular way. I consider such lifestyles to be terrible, heinous ways to use the only life we’re given in this world. I will pray for their conversion.

 

[Gamera]

Yes, because anyone that I am related to is, by virtue of that fact, without sin, and therefore, if they had an abortion, it was not actually a sin, due to the fact that they are related to me.

(The above is meant sarcastically.)

Yeah, no kidding. Plenty of people have relatives who they know belong in jail.

What exactly is the argument here? If my sister paid someone to chop off her own baby’s head, I’d expect her to go to prison, regardless of whether the baby was inside the womb or outside the womb at the time.

 

[Gamera]

A close relation of mine was a babykiller, as was I. I paid for my crime in the suffering that followed my deed, which I think was fairly proportionate, since I almost died and since the deed wasn’t my idea and I did put up some fight against it. I wouldn’t want anyone else who brought children to be aborted to go through what I already went through, but of course a repeat offender who freely made the decision understanding what it actually was, should face some kind of charges. As to repentance before God, I have done that and been absolved. I am forgiven for the horrible thing I did. Thank God! I also forgive others and don’t judge them as people. The intense pressure put on young women to let their children be killed is mindboggling, and is a mitigating factor, though not a total excuse unless they are actually forced, which has happened several times lately.
The abortionist is in a different category, as I see it. He is a professional child-killer. He postures as a medical doctor who heals and protects life, while actually he is the furthest thing from that (unless he does both separately). I see professional hit men who encourage the wider society to treat them as pillars of the community in a particular way. I consider such lifestyles to be terrible, heinous ways to use the only life we’re given in this world. I will pray for their conversion.

I’m so sorry about what you experienced. What a nightmare. Praise God that He is so merciful to all of us.

Your observations about abortionists are right on the money, as far as I’m concerned. It’s one thing to be the mother in the midst of a problem pregnancy making a decision under stressful and possibly overwhelming circumstances. It’s another thing to actively pursue abortion as a 9-to-5 job, knowing well in advance exactly what you will be doing over the course of weeks, months, years.

 

[Valke2]

The abortionist is in a different category, as I see it. He is a professional child-killer. He postures as a medical doctor who heals and protects life, while actually he is the furthest thing from that (unless he does both separately). I see professional hit men who encourage the wider society to treat them as pillars of the community in a particular way. I consider such lifestyles to be terrible, heinous ways to use the only life we’re given in this world. I will pray for their conversion.

Doesn’t a woman who has an abortion posture as a mother and is she not the furthest thing from that? Why is not her lifestyle as terrible as that of the doctor? Doesn’t the person who hires the hitman also commit murder?

 

[Valke2]

I’m so sorry about what you experienced. What a nightmare. Praise God that He is so merciful to all of us.

Your observations about abortionists are right on the money, as far as I’m concerned. It’s one thing to be the mother in the midst of a problem pregnancy making a decision under stressful and possibly overwhelming circumstances. It’s another thing to actively pursue abortion as a 9-to-5 job, knowing well in advance exactly what you will be doing over the course of weeks, months, years.

You don’t think that many who commit murder are under some kind of pressure? Why give the mother a pass? Either abortion is murder or it isn’t. If it is, you cannot excuse a mother who chooses to have one. If you feel empathy for the mother and are trying to make excuses for her behavior, perhaps it is because on some level you believe that abortion and murder are not the same thing.

 

[Valke2]

Yeah, no kidding. Plenty of people have relatives who they know belong in jail.

What exactly is the argument here? If my sister paid someone to chop off her own baby’s head, I’d expect her to go to prison, regardless of whether the baby was inside the womb or outside the womb at the time.

The point wasn’t that difficult. If abortion is murder than there are appoximately 40 million murderers running around free today. If so, the chances are that we count at least one among our friends and family.

Additionally, I have to conclude that women are far more violent than men and that they represent a substantial danger to society, as they have a tendancy to prey on the weakest and most innocent.

 

[Gamera]

You don’t think that many who commit murder are under some kind of pressure? Why give the mother a pass? Either abortion is murder or it isn’t. If it is, you cannot excuse a mother who chooses to have one. If you feel empathy for the mother and are trying to make excuses for her behavior, perhaps it is because on some level you believe that abortion and murder are not the same thing.

Nowhere did I give any murderer a “pass.” Murder can be committed under pressure. It’s still murder. Nowhere did I say that I “excused” murder. Feeling empathy for a murderer doesn’t mean approving of the murder. On no level do I believe chopping off a baby’s head is okay. Do you?

 

[Gamera]

The point wasn’t that difficult. If abortion is murder than there are appoximately 40 million murderers running around free today. If so, the chances are that we count at least one among our friends and family.

… and by definition we can also count among our friends and family a baby who was beheaded by abortion. Again, how should that influence the legality of abortion?

Additionally, I have to conclude that women are far more violent than men and that they represent a substantial danger to society, as they have a tendancy to prey on the weakest and most innocent.

Abortion does prey upon the most weak and innocent. Men can commit abortion just as easily as women, as the abortionist.

 

[Valke2]

… and by definition we can also count among our friends and family a baby who was beheaded by abortion. Again, how should that influence the legality of abortion?

Abortion does prey upon the most weak and innocent. Men can commit abortion just as easily as women, as the abortionist.

There are far more woman having abortions than men performing them. You seem to be one of the few who are willing to agree that the mother who has an abortion is a murderer.

So, given this, it stands to reason that the mother who has an abortion in a state that has the death penalty should be subject to it, as she has killed the most innocent and helpless of people.
And shouldn’t prolife people be arguing for defining abortion legally as murder, rather than just fighting to ban it?

 

[Gamera]

There are far more woman having abortions than men performing them. You seem to be one of the few who are willing to agree that the mother who has an abortion is a murderer.

So, given this, it stands to reason that the mother who has an abortion in a state that has the death penalty should be subject to it, as she has killed the most innocent and helpless of people.
And shouldn’t prolife people be arguing for defining abortion legally as murder, rather than just fighting to ban it?

Murder has degrees. Not all murder is punishable by the death penalty. On the contrary, relatively few murder cases are death penalty eligible. I don’t understand the second part of what you say here, though. What do you think the pro-life movement wants to happen with abortion? That it should be a misdemeanor?

 

[Valke2]

Murder has degrees. Not all murder is punishable by the death penalty. On the contrary, relatively few murder cases are death penalty eligible. I don’t understand the second part of what you say here, though. What do you think the pro-life movement wants to happen with abortion? That it should be a misdemeanor?

As I understand it, laws that prohbiited abortion in this country did not in the past equate it with murder.

And while their are different degrees of murder, if we equate a fetus with a baby, then we are talking about one of the most terrible forms of murder imaginable. I would assume that most abortions would then be punished by the death penalty. Especially in Texas.

 

[Gamera]

As I understand it, laws that prohbiited abortion in this country did not in the past equate it with murder.

And while their are different degrees of murder, if we equate a fetus with a baby, then we are talking about one of the most terrible forms of murder imaginable. I would assume that most abortions would then be punished by the death penalty. Especially in Texas.

Well, Texas hands out the death penalty like candy, so that’s a little different. Texas has, or at least had, the death penalty for second-degree murder, which would seem to defeat the whole purpose of having degrees of murder.

I see you’re from New York State, as am I. Here in New York, where we legalized abortion in 1970 then re-criminalized it in 1972, Abortion in the First Degree under Penal Law 125.45 was a Class D felony, punishable by 7 years in prison. But New York may not be a good example of what a post-Roe world would resemble, since we’d be about the last state to re-criminalize abortion (just ahead of Connecticut and Massachusetts).

 

[crowonsnow]

Nowhere did I give any murderer a “pass.” Murder can be committed under pressure. It’s still murder. Nowhere did I say that I “excused” murder. Feeling empathy for a murderer doesn’t mean approving of the murder. On no level do I believe chopping off a baby’s head is okay. Do you?

If I equate abortion with murder then lots of murderers are getting away with murder and I’m doing nothing about it. I’m therefore a hypocrite.

 

[Gamera]

If I equate abortion with murder then lots of murderers are getting away with murder and I’m doing nothing about it. I’m therefore a hypocrite.

A hypocrite is someone who says one thing and does a contradictory thing. Failure to act may be bad but it doesn’t constitute hypocrisy. Hypocrisy would be if one denounced abortion then turned around and got an abortion.

 

[JustWar]

I think alot of you are still missing the point. We are Catholics and that group is whom we are concerned about here. We need to focus our attention on Catholic women that get abortions. The Church needs to as well. The church should not speak to other religions and non-catholics, period. And should not be involved in secular political decisions like Roe v. Wade. We have to start with out own Catholic women who kill 300,000 unborn children every year. If the Church can’t keep its own members from having abortions and keep its own house in order then how can it be effective by getting involved in the corrupt secular politics of the day?

 

[jmcrae]

The point wasn’t that difficult. If abortion is murder than there are appoximately 40 million murderers running around free today. If so, the chances are that we count at least one among our friends and family.

The ugly truth is that any one of us, under the right circumstances and with the proper motivation, can be a murderer. I’m betting there are more of us than we realize, who are also related to persons who have committed what the law calls murder, too, as well as to women who have had abortions.

 

[crowonsnow]

A hypocrite is someone who says one thing and does a contradictory thing. Failure to act may be bad but it doesn’t constitute hypocrisy. Hypocrisy would be if one denounced abortion then turned around and got an abortion.

You can’t condemn abortion as murder and conveniently overlook all those murderers in the same breath. That is simply hypocritical.