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Gamera
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Who “overlooked” a murderer? What are you talking about?
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crowonsnow
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Hello Gamera,
Let me illustrate. Please don’t take what I am about to say personally. I have encountered this mass murder charge before and am simply responding as I have always responded.
Basically, you can’t hold someone to be a criminal and then treat them as if they are not a criminal. That’s hypocrisy. When you do this, when your actions indicate that you are not serious about your accusations, that is being hypocritical. You are saying one thing and doing the opposite.
As Valke2 pointed out, if I allege that there is mass murder taking place and that there are tens, perhaps hundreds, of millions of these mass murderers at large preying on our babies and our children, going out and cutting their heads off and slaughtering them, and yet while all this is taking place I still find the time to sit at my keyboard and have a chat with my forum mates, many if not most of whom are complicit in this mass murder, no one is taking my claim seriously, except perhaps other hypocrites.
Perhaps most importantly, what should be the penalty for anyone taking part in this mass murder? Should we sterilize mothers that have abortions? Is that a fitting punishment for a mass murderer? Should we remove the doctors’ licenses? Is that a fitting punishment for mass murderers that cut babies heads off by the millions? Should we incarcerate the nurses and anesthesiologists for thirty days? Is that a fitting punishment for mass murderers?
What should I be doing if I am convinced that there is the most heinous form of mass murder ongoing against the most innocent of our population? Should I be chatting with my cyber buddies? Should I be buying Christmas gifts and filling out my income taxes?
So I hope you see my point and why charges of mass murder, while no doubt must be gratifying to make, ring hollow when observed by someone like myself. It really is a case of all sound and no fury.
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Gamera
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Oh, I get it. Well, you’re quite right, we must act. I agree.
Perhaps I should offer my personal example. In the past six months, I’ve written a “Stop Killing Babies” letter to every abortion facility in the United States (748 of them). I’ve also written a “Stop the Abortion Holocaust” letter to all 441 members of the U.S. House of Representatives (that’s 435 voting members plus 6 non-voting members). I plan to do the same with the Senate next month. Back during the election, I donated to National Right to Life PAC (enough so that it had to be reported). And since Barack Obama took office as President, I’ve already written him three letters asking him to help stop abortion. Oh, and I also put two pro-life bumper stickers on my car.
Am I a hypocrite, by your standards?
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crowonsnow
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If you are going to keep insinuating mass murder I’d say you are still a hypocrite. But if you went out like a John Brown I’d say you were not a hypocrite. If you dialogued about the ethical implications and planned mass rallies and spent every waking moment for your cause, and dropped the mass murder insinuations, I’d say you were not being a hypocrite.
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ninaq4
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This is not true at all…to do something means doing what is within your power to do.
Gamera has done what he can…and sometimes raising awareness of attrocities can be done while sitting in a forum chatting…and umm…let me ask this, if you are “horrified” as well…why are you not out in the streets rallying for your cause??
Even generals of great armies, sometimes need consoltation and chatter among their like minded to help them plan or see a new strategy to succeed. In addition, they need to do what they can to recruit NEW supporters to their fight…going whereever they can…including online forums, to find brave new soldiers to join the fight.
I wish MORE people acted as Gamera has claimed he does…although, frankly, until those who are appalled enough (including myself) to take to the streets and really fight to save those babies lives…nothing will ever change!
We are willing to sacrifice the most innocent amongst us…because we are not courageous enough to actually do what is necessary to stop it, period!
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Gamera
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Hey, I’ve got the Post Office receipts to prove it — plus the Staples’ bills (the actual expense of a mass mailing includes not only postage, but the address labels, self-sealing envelopes, the paper, and the dreaded inkjet printer cartridges). I’ve mentioned this before on another thread: anyone interested in the mailing labels of the abortion facilities, feel free to PM me and I will e-mail you the labels (I’ve had two takers so far!).
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Gamera
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You don’t seem to understand what a “hypocrite” is. A hypocrite is someone who does the opposite of what he preaches. I oppose abortion in word and I oppose abortion in deed. Where is there any inconsistency?
You seem to think a “hypocrite” is a person who holds any opinion about anything yet fails to transform into a One Man/Woman Army to wage full-time struggle for their cause. By your view, anyone opposed to the death penalty would be a “hypocrite” unless he personally staged a prison break for every condemned inmate in America. And anyone favoring the death penalty would be a “hypocrite” unless he personally injected poison into each death row inmate’s arm.
It’s an absurd standard. Do you spend every waking moment toiling for your causes? If so, why are yhou taking time out to post here? If not, doesn’t that make you a “hypocrite” by your definition? What if you support more than one cause? You can’t spend every waking moment working for one cause AND every waking moment working for another cause, so doesn’t that make you a “hypocrite” regarding both causes?
I’m doing exactly what I’m supposed to do in a democracy.
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ninaq4
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And I totally commend you for doing so…you are doing much more than most will even think of…so God bless you!
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Gamera
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jmcrae
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If they don’t think you’re crazy, you’re not yelling loud enough.Why thank you! God bless you, too.
P.S. My mailman thinks I’m insane.
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Gamera
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Then again, as my wife would point out, “Just because you’re right doesn’t mean you’re not crazy …”If they don’t think you’re crazy, you’re not yelling loud enough.
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crowonsnow
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It just strikes me as more rhetoric. If I really believed that millions of babies were being slaughtered I wouldn’t be licking stamps. That would be as criminal as killing them myself.
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Gamera
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You make it sound like I’m just “licking stamps” to collect them in a stamp album. I write to our nation’s leaders to beg them to enact laws to protect babies’ lives. That’s precisely what I’m supposed to do in a democracy. Why, what action are you taking to protect the lives of unborn children?
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jmcrae
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What else is there to do?
When we picket abortion clinics to alert people of what is taking place inside, we get arrested for disrupting the peace.
We are told that we must use peaceful means to make our point.
Obviously, bombing an abortion clinic would be just as bad as committing the abortion - all human life is precious, even those of “doctors” who do heinous things - and in that case, too, we would be rightly arrested for murder.
So, we educate, we rescue as many kids as we can using peaceful means - mostly by talking to the mothers and convincing them not to abort their children and providing them places like “Elizabeth’s House” where they can go and live during the term of the pregnancy and until the child is one year old, and we write letters to those who have the power to make it illegal to kill unborn children. Everyone has to do their part. One person can’t do it all.
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crowonsnow
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Again, and in my very humble opinion, writing letters to congressmen and congresswomen is not an appropriate response if I indeed believe that millions of babies are being murdered and that these mass murderers are at large murdering at will. If a man was “legally” roaming your neighborhood shooting children and cutting their heads off what would you do? Would you be writing letters to your government representatives?
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Gottle_of_Geer
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Neither. It’s not a crime, but a sin (supposing it to be objectionable, that is). Some objectionable things are sins, but are not crimes, because they not illegal - yet they are sins even so; sin & crime are different categories (though in antiquity, the two were not distinguished because they were not conceptualised in this way; but that is another matter).
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Gamera
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You haven’t suggest what I SHOULD do. You keep repeating that writing our congressman “isn’t enough,” but you never say what you expect. In your scenario, what would YOU do? Murder the murder? Capture the murderer and imprison him in your basement for life? What do YOU suggest would be appropriate if you knew a killer was “roaming your streets shooting children?” Let’s hear what YOU think would make us not be “hypocrites.” Don’t expect me to guess what you’re thinking. Tell me.
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crowonsnow
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Okay.
What I’m thinking is that if I witnessed persons going around murdering children and babies, as you say, by the millions and cutting their heads of, I know for a fact I would not be buying stamps and writing letters to state officials to get the practice stopped. And there are lots of schools and playgrounds and hospitals and parks around here.
I would adopt the same principle that you believe in as catholic, and commit the lesser evil to prevent the greater evil, the lesser evil being the use of force, the greater evil prevented being the murder of children and babies.
If in the application of that force it meant to cause the death of persons murdering babies and children, I think I would be capable of same. But in my case I am not claiming to witness these mass murders, as are anti-abortionists making claims of mass murder. So I figure these anti-abortionists are just engaging in rhetoric, in which case they really don’t believe there is ongoing mass murder, or else they are acting hypocritically, claiming that there is mass murder but abiding it just the same.
So that’s what I am thinking. Does that sound reasonable?
My position is that any law abiding person would do the same thing to protect children and babies, if in fact they were witness to such murderous acts. Our laws and our culture are, after all, based on the prevention of such acts. But perhaps you disagree that our laws are so based and would care to elaborate.
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Gamera
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There are two basic reason why the use of force is inappropriate; moral, and practical.
Morally, as a Catholic I am only permitted to use force in a limited range of circumstances, one of which is that the threat must be imminent. I cannot personally be present in all 748 of America’s death camps, simultaneously, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Nor can I predict the exact moment at which each death camp will behead a particular baby. I therefore am not in a situation in which I am allowed to use force.
Practically, even if I could magically hop from one death camp to the next, to the next, to the next, that would do little to stop the holocaust machinery itself, since abortion would remain legal. Babies would continue to die by the millions long after I’m dead and gone. Our children never will be safe until the enjoy legal protection, not just some kind of ad hoc vigilante protection.
In combat, if you try not to get anyone killed, you’ll end up getting everyone killed. We have a responsibility to devote our resources (time, money, effort, and energy) to winning the overall war, even if that means refraining from devoting all our resources to winning every individual battle.
Okay, so I get that for some reason you think it should be legal to behead a baby in utero. But there must be some other issue about which you care, right? Death penalty? Starving children in underdeveloped countries? Animal rights? You must care about some issue, so my question is, have YOU devoted yourself to becoming a One Man/Woman Army, tirelessly working 24/7 for your cause? If not, then aren’t you a “hypocrite” by your own standard? If not, why not?
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crowonsnow
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So you are saying that the reason a person can claim mass murder but yet content him or herself to writing letters is that there is no imminent threat? That definitely confuses me.
If as you say millions of babies are being beheaded in 748 death camps in the US there is certainly an imminent threat to babies.
Or are you saying that there is no imminent threat to the anti-abortionist.
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