Who Should NOT Join the Church?

[quiet52]

Fortunately, my parish does have adult education programs. I did learn a lot in those when I reverted. I actually got a copy of the Catechism from one of those adult education classes at my parish. We also have a Bible study. So it looks like the former and current pastors of my parish did know about the letter and are doing something about it.

Could you share with us what’s going on in your parish’s adult ed. program? How did your parish invite people to it? I realize you were responding to the promptings of the Holy Spirit – but in what ways did your parish respond to his promptings, to help you? How did it persuade parishioners to take advantage of the opportunity?

Our Hearts Were Burning Within Us: A Pastoral Plan for Adult Faith Formation in the United States (USCCB):
usccb.org/education/ourhearts.htm

I apologize for being off-topic.

 

[ponyman]

RE: Quiet52

You have stated your case elloquently and passionately, and I think that you have, in large part, made my point for me, although I feel that you have erred in part by restating my very opening argument. My argument being that the Church spends too much time dealing with the legalism associated with membership rather than in seeking to save souls by encouraging those who are seeking membership to be admitted.

As you will remember, most of the people who Christ called to Him were those of a rather, shall we say, desparate past. I do not recall Him ever asking anyone to recite the Nicene Creed before He accepted them. I do not ever recall His requiring them to attend adult education classes; He simply accepted them if they professed both a belief in Him and a willingness to follow Him.

WE are the Church. WE are the body of Christ. WE are the reason Christ came, and not some administrative body, but the Body of Christ. WE can not be exclusive but must rather encourage inclusivity in embracing the Chrisitan journey toward eternity. WE, the Church and Body of Christ, are not some metaphysical institution; WE are the living and breathing Body of Christ who should stand ready to accept all who come knocking at the door of the Church without setting out archane rules which few can give either the proper answer or proper hand-shake before they are granted entry. The example of the Appostles who were fortunate to be in the company of the Lord for several years did not, most of the time, have either the proper answers or the appropriate knowledge to even realize who the Lord really was, let alone why He came. Therefore how can we, or should we - as a Church - expect a novice to even begin to have all of the proper answers. WE should encourage everyone, regardless of his or her naivete in the faith, to enter into communion with the Lord. WE are the Church; it is not just a building or an institution or administrative body. QW need not make it complicated. Remember what Christ said: “It is so simple that even a little child can understand.” Neither WE nor the administrative body of the Church decides who is called to the door of the Church and who seeks admission; it is Christ alone who calls.

I quote from I Timothy, 2:4, which says that God “wishes all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” Naturally this implies a coming to the knowledge of the truth and not presenting oneself already in the knowledge of the truths. To some He gives more grace than to others, so some may come less equiped than others.

The following comes from the authorized Sermon for the 26th Sunday after Pentecost, entitled: God’s Will to Save All Men: "It is one of te most consoling doctrines of the catholic Church that God wills to save all men. , A touching manifestation of Our Lord’s great desire to save all men was given on the occasion when, preaching in the temple, He cried out, “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen gathers her young under her wings, but thou wouldst not. (Matt., 23:37”

I think that, as the author the Very Rev. Francis J. Connell, C.SS.R., S.T,D., LL.D., stated so eleoquently: "God wishes to save them [sinners] and lavishes His choicest graces on them as long as they live, even though they continue to harden their hearts.

If God is willing to lavish graces upon all sinners, even those who harden their hearts, then how much more would He lavish His graces upon any who stand at the door and knock. We make a fundamental mistake in making things to difficult sometimes.

All that I am saying is this, the Lord made it rather simple so why should the Church, which is WE, ever make it difficult. There is no reason that anyone should ever be denied access to the Lord simply because they may not have all of, what WE may perceive, the right answers. All that the Lord has ever required was that WE seek Him first, and then all things will be added to us.
In Christ,
Ponyman

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Could you share with us what’s going on in your parish’s adult ed. program? How did your parish invite people to it? I realize you were responding to the promptings of the Holy Spirit – but in what ways did your parish respond to his promptings, to help you? How did it persuade parishioners to take advantage of the opportunity?

Our Hearts Were Burning Within Us: A Pastoral Plan for Adult Faith Formation in the United States (USCCB):
usccb.org/education/ourhearts.htm

I apologize for being off-topic.

I also have my set of Power Points I used for presenting the document in the parish to the Faith Formation Commission. Along with the results of a parish wide Adult Education Survey. As well as a plan for Adult Faith Formation. If anyone is interested send an Email with your Emailaddress to me.

Here is the outline:

IV. Five Sessions (1 1/2-1 3/4 hours)

Session One (I 1/2 hours)

. Welcome and Opening Prayer (15 minutes)
. Introduction (20 minutes)
. Personal Experience (20 minutes)
. Signs of the Times (30 minutes)
. Closing Prayer (5 minutes)

Session Two (l 1/2 hours)

. Opening Prayer (10 minutes)
. Fostering Mature Faith (30 minutes)
. Goals and Principles (30 minutes)
. Current Parish Efforts (5 minutes)
. Closing Prayer (15 minutes)

Session Three (1 3/4 hours)

. Opening Prayer (5 minutes)
. Questions and Concerns (20 minutes)
. Six Content Areas (20 minutes)
. Further Exploration (20 minutes)
. Comparing Notes (10 minutes)
. Approaches to Adult Faith Formation (20 minutes)
. Closing Prayer (10 minutes)

Session Four (I 1/2 hours)

. Opening Prayer (10 minutes)
. Thinking Differently (20 minutes)
. The Pivotal Importance of the Parish (30 minutes)
. Key Parish Roles of Leadership and Service:
Objective One (15 minutes)
. Closing Prayer (15 minutes)

Session Five (1 3/4 hours)

. Opening Prayer (5 minutes)
. Key Parish Roles of Leadership and Service:
Objective Two (20 minutes)
Objective Three (20 minutes)
Objective Four (20 minutes)
. Identifying the Next Steps (30 minutes)
. Sending-Forth Prayer (10 minutes)

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

RE: Quiet52

You have stated your case elloquently and passionately, and I think that you have, in large part, made my point for me, although I feel that you have erred in part by restating my very opening argument. My argument being that the Church spends too much time dealing with the legalism associated with membership rather than in seeking to save souls by encouraging those who are seeking membership to be admitted.

As you will remember, most of the people who Christ called to Him were those of a rather, shall we say, desparate past. I do not recall Him ever asking anyone to recite the Nicene Creed before He accepted them. I do not ever recall His requiring them to attend adult education classes; He simply accepted them if they professed both a belief in Him and a willingness to follow Him.

WE are the Church. WE are the body of Christ. WE are the reason Christ came, and not some administrative body, but the Body of Christ. WE can not be exclusive but must rather encourage inclusivity in embracing the Chrisitan journey toward eternity. WE, the Church and Body of Christ, are not some metaphysical institution; WE are the living and breathing Body of Christ who should stand ready to accept all who come knocking at the door of the Church without setting out archane rules which few can give either the proper answer or proper hand-shake before they are granted entry. The example of the Appostles who were fortunate to be in the company of the Lord for several years did not, most of the time, have either the proper answers or the appropriate knowledge to even realize who the Lord really was, let alone why He came. Therefore how can we, or should we - as a Church - expect a novice to even begin to have all of the proper answers. WE should encourage everyone, regardless of his or her naivete in the faith, to enter into communion with the Lord. WE are the Church; it is not just a building or an institution or administrative body. QW need not make it complicated. Remember what Christ said: “It is so simple that even a little child can understand.” Neither WE nor the administrative body of the Church decides who is called to the door of the Church and who seeks admission; it is Christ alone who calls.

I quote from I Timothy, 2:4, which says that God “wishes all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” Naturally this implies a coming to the knowledge of the truth and not presenting oneself already in the knowledge of the truths. To some He gives more grace than to others, so some may come less equiped than others.

The following comes from the authorized Sermon for the 26th Sunday after Pentecost, entitled: God’s Will to Save All Men: "It is one of te most consoling doctrines of the catholic Church that God wills to save all men. , A touching manifestation of Our Lord’s great desire to save all men was given on the occasion when, preaching in the temple, He cried out, “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen gathers her young under her wings, but thou wouldst not. (Matt., 23:37”

I think that, as the author the Very Rev. Francis J. Connell, C.SS.R., S.T,D., LL.D., stated so eleoquently: "God wishes to save them [sinners] and lavishes His choicest graces on them as long as they live, even though they continue to harden their hearts.

If God is willing to lavish graces upon all sinners, even those who harden their hearts, then how much more would He lavish His graces upon any who stand at the door and knock. We make a fundamental mistake in making things to difficult sometimes.

All that I am saying is this, the Lord made it rather simple so why should the Church, which is WE, ever make it difficult. There is no reason that anyone should ever be denied access to the Lord simply because they may not have all of, what WE may perceive, the right answers. All that the Lord has ever required was that WE seek Him first, and then all things will be added to us.
In Christ,
Ponyman

The Catholic Church is always invitational. But remember the story of the young man. "What must I do for Eternal Life? Christ answers him, but he does not like the answer and turns away. This is still happening today. It’s no differet.

 

[Teflon93]

If you limit infallible teaching of the Magisterium to only defined Dogmas, it’s going to be a small and very short list.

Indeed, an unnecessarily short list, for in the Church, dogma is not defined until violated. There is no need to infallibly define that which has not led to heresy thus far. Man being endlessly innovative in disobedience, we’ll no doubt eventually require every teaching to be dogmatically defined.

 

[ponyman]

RE: Bro. Rich.

Please remember, my friend, that it was Christ and not the Church that was making the decisions in your scenario, plus the man was actually the one who made the decison. Many walk away but also many knock. When they knock the Church should never close the door but rather open it wider so that knowledge in the faith may come with learning.

Life is a journey and the same is true of the Christian journey. No one has the answers when they first begin the journey. In fact, we will never have the answers until we make the transition to Eternity. Look at people like Merton and Aquinas for example. Even Christ Himself had His doubts in the garden and even He did not come to complete fruition until the moment of His resurrection. So then, who are WE as a Church - the Body of Christ - to ever deny one of its members the opportunity to enter into fullfillment in Christ.

The RC is much like the Army, it has a rule for everything and most rules can be overcome with a request for waiver. God Himself started out with only ten rules and then Christ added another = Love your brother as yourself. This commandment requires us to open the door to all who knock regardless of the rules established which complicate everything.

Christ is the one who calls men and only Christ can deny them. It is really that simple. “Knock and the door will be opened.”

In Christ,
Ponyman

 

[lak611]

Could you share with us what’s going on in your parish’s adult ed. program? How did your parish invite people to it? I realize you were responding to the promptings of the Holy Spirit – but in what ways did your parish respond to his promptings, to help you? How did it persuade parishioners to take advantage of the opportunity?

Our Hearts Were Burning Within Us: A Pastoral Plan for Adult Faith Formation in the United States (USCCB):
usccb.org/education/ourhearts.htm

I apologize for being off-topic.

When I returned to the Church, the associate priest who heard my Confession mentioned the adult ed. program. He was teaching a class on Church history. After that class, my pastor taught a class on the Catechism. Then the Sister started a Bible study. Now the Bible study is led by a layman. I just got more and more involved in my parish by going to classes. I also joined other groups. For instance, I started volunteering at an ecumenical meal for the poor at the Methodist church because people in the Bible study were asked to help. I also met people from the Bible study who were also part of the Evangelization Committe, and I joined that group. Eventually, my pastor asked me to become an EMHC.

Basically, having a great confessor was what got me interested. That was not my penance, but when he mentioned it, I decided to check it out.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

RE: Bro. Rich.

Please remember, my friend, that it was Christ and not the Church that was making the decisions in your scenario, plus the man was actually the one who made the decison. Many walk away but also many knock. When they knock the Church should never close the door but rather open it wider so that knowledge in the faith may come with learning.

Life is a journey and the same is true of the Christian journey. No one has the answers when they first begin the journey. In fact, we will never have the answers until we make the transition to Eternity. Look at people like Merton and Aquinas for example. Even Christ Himself had His doubts in the garden and even He did not come to complete fruition until the moment of His resurrection. So then, who are WE as a Church - the Body of Christ - to ever deny one of its members the opportunity to enter into fullfillment in Christ.

The RC is much like the Army, it has a rule for everything and most rules can be overcome with a request for waiver. God Himself started out with only ten rules and then Christ added another = Love your brother as yourself. This commandment requires us to open the door to all who knock regardless of the rules established which complicate everything.

Christ is the one who calls men and only Christ can deny them. It is really that simple. “Knock and the door will be opened.”

In Christ,
Ponyman

I agree.

 

[mtnutt]

I joined the RCIA program last year because I had decided to bring peace to my family. My wife of 18 years and our 5 children were all Catholics and she had been trying for several years to get me to convert. There was no great animosity, just gentle pressure. I finally decided to make the move because I thought that it didn’t really matter whether I stayed Baptist or became Catholic because we held the same core belief, that Christ had died for us to save us from sin. I had joined the RCIA program 5 years ago to learn more about the church, but dropped out at the time of the Rite of Welcome, because I stubbornly did not want to become Catholic. As I progressed through the program this time around, I slowly changed from casual belief to true belief in the teachings of the church. I truly believe that the Holy Spirit was working on me, leading me to believe intellectually that it was peacemaking, and then revealing to me the truth of my faith. I suspect this type of thing happens more often than most people would believe.

Mine was a long journey, but well worth the time and effort. I am currently examining ways to become more involved in ministries. I am having some difficulty deciding because of schedule issues, but I do know that I want to be involved in the RCIA process from this side, so I can help others who are like I was.

 

[Teflon93]

Mine was a long journey, but well worth the time and effort. I am currently examining ways to become more involved in ministries. I am having some difficulty deciding because of schedule issues, but I do know that I want to be involved in the RCIA process from this side, so I can help others who are like I was.

God bless you and welcome!

I’ll pass on the advice my deacon passed onto me:

The most important thing a Catholic can do is come to Mass and take part in the Eucharist. This is what Christ bid us do; it’s of paramount importance we do it.

The second most important thing a Catholic can do is live a Christian life tending to their family. As the bishop is shepherd to the flock, so are we the shepherds of our families. We must devote our energies to providing for and guiding them.

Ministry participation is therefore of tertiary importance for the laity. Too many misplace it as primary and either fail to attend Mass or fall into serious sins prohibiting access to the Eucharist by not attending Confession prior to Mass; others get so wrapped up in ministry participation that they shirk their responsibilities to their family. The latter may be typical of converts from evangelical communities in particular, where one feels you must always be “doing something” church-related. My wife wrestles with this, which is why our deacon felt the need to correct us.

By all means, seek ways to lend your time and talents to the Church, but make sure you’re doing so without sacrificing time with God or with family.

 

[mtnutt]

God bless you and welcome!

I’ll pass on the advice my deacon passed onto me:

The most important thing a Catholic can do is come to Mass and take part in the Eucharist. This is what Christ bid us do; it’s of paramount importance we do it.

The second most important thing a Catholic can do is live a Christian life tending to their family. As the bishop is shepherd to the flock, so are we the shepherds of our families. We must devote our energies to providing for and guiding them.

Ministry participation is therefore of tertiary importance for the laity. Too many misplace it as primary and either fail to attend Mass or fall into serious sins prohibiting access to the Eucharist by not attending Confession prior to Mass; others get so wrapped up in ministry participation that they shirk their responsibilities to their family. The latter may be typical of converts from evangelical communities in particular, where one feels you must always be “doing something” church-related. My wife wrestles with this, which is why our deacon felt the need to correct us.

By all means, seek ways to lend your time and talents to the Church, but make sure you’re doing so without sacrificing time with God or with family.

Thanks for the advice, these are the exact issues I am dealing with. I have already decided that missing mass is not an option, we have 3 to choose from so there is little or no excuse for not making it, in my opinion. I have only missed once in the last year, my wife had to finish preparing for the CCD class she teaches and we didn’t get done in time to make it to mass. I do think I need to be involved beyond simply attending mass, but I fully realize it must be balanced with my work and family life.

Thanks again.

 

[Teflon93]

Thanks for the advice, these are the exact issues I am dealing with. I have already decided that missing mass is not an option, we have 3 to choose from so there is little or no excuse for not making it, in my opinion. I have only missed once in the last year, my wife had to finish preparing for the CCD class she teaches and we didn’t get done in time to make it to mass. I do think I need to be involved beyond simply attending mass, but I fully realize it must be balanced with my work and family life.

Thanks again.

No problem—sounds like you’re right on target. We still wrestle with feeling like we’re not doing “enough”, but our deacon gently reminded us that the whole point is to worship God, not to check off lists. It’s a hard habit to break—many of us have that nagging voice saying “Do more”, but if we listen closely it’s not the voice of God, but the voice of parent or pastor.

 

[Michael96]

Life is a journey and the same is true of the Christian journey. No one has the answers when they first begin the journey. In fact, we will never have the answers until we make the transition to Eternity. Look at people like Merton and Aquinas for example. Even Christ Himself had His doubts in the garden and even He did not come to complete fruition until the moment of His resurrection. So then, who are WE as a Church - the Body of Christ - to ever deny one of its members the opportunity to enter into fullfillment in Christ.

I think that’s a lovely way of putting it Ponyman.

I remember when I joined the Church and the priest said “this is the *real *start of the journey”, and that is what it *has *felt like and what it continues to feel like. I have to say sometimes looking at a forum like this I feel a very poor Catholic because I’m exploring my faith in Christ, exploring the writings of the doctors of the Church, and don’t necessarily “jump to attention” on everything; but what you wrote Ponyman really re-connected me to why I joined the Church - so thankyou very much!

Michael

 

[BillP]

If you limit infallible teaching of the Magisterium to only defined Dogmas, it’s going to be a small and very short list.

Precisely!

 

[ponyman]

Hi Michael:
Have a good journey, my brother. Christ always goes before us, so fear not! We may stumble, and we will, but He is always there to pick us up. Can we do any less for those who are just beginning their journey?
Keep the faith and be gentle with yourself as Christ is gentle.
Wishing you all good things,
In Christ,
Ponyman

 

[ponyman]

In support of my plea for gentleness for all who seek the Lord and in justification for all who apply for the graces of the Church, I would offer the following from the Collected Works of St. John of the Cross, a section entitled The Sprititual Canticle: " The Spirit of the Lord, who abides in us and aids our weakness, as St. Paul says [Rom. 8:26] pleads for us with unspeakable groanings in order to manifest what we can neither fuly understand nor comprehend." He goes on to say: “Who can describe the understanding He gives to loving souls in whom He dwells? And who can express the experience He impars to them? Who, finally, can explain the desires He gives them? Certainly, no one can! Not even they who receive these communications. As a result these persons let something of their experiencs overflow in figures and similes, and from the abundance of their spirit pour out secrets and mysteries rather an rational explanations.”

It is often diffificult in and of itself to decern when, why and how the Lord may call one to Himself. It should be our task to make that journey more easy than difficult in decerning the will of our Lord for a given person who is seeking Him. At times I believe it sufficient for a catecumin to simply say, "I believe, " as stands as the major requirement for salvation in Holy Scripture in accordance with the words of our Saviour. At that point the journey to Christ can begin which will end in Divine communion with Him who calls all men to Himself.

As St. Anselm intimated, “God is that of which nothing greater can be thought.” We can’t explain Him or His methods of calling another to Himself. Our task is to humbly accept and teach those who come in the ways of our Lord. We can not judge their motivations; only Christ can do that.

In Christ,
Ponyman