Who Should NOT Join the Church?

[ponyman]

Christ Himself said that you do not send a doctor to a well man. That says it all.

We are all travellers on the road to salvation in our journey with Christ. It would be improper for anyone seeking salvation to be turned away from the Church.

Everyone has his opinions but no man has a right to be wrong in the facts. Christ calls all to His Church and no one should be limited because of legalism.

Would you want to stand in front of Almighty God and try to explain to Him why you turned someone away. Rather, try leading in a spirit of mercy and compassion and perhaps others will follow.

In Christ,
Ponyman

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

What is the official teaching on adults joining the Church? Do they not have to believe everything the Church binds on the faithful? Do not all have to make a profession of faith saying they believe in all the Church’s binding teachings?

My friend asked me a few weeks ago how she could turn Catholic. I said, “Do you believe the Catholic Church is the One True Church established, preserved and guided by Christ and is always correct on binding teachings?” She said, “no.” I then told her not to join until she believed that.

In my mind, one of the things that reflects the worst on the Church and Christ is the existence of Cafeteria Catholics, people who call themselves “Catholic” but reject the authority of the Church. It was clear to me that my friend would have been a cafeteria from the get-go.

However, under canon law, is there some blanket clause that says any adult can join the Church, regardless of what he/she believes?

I learned yesterday that in 1703 the Congregation for the Propagation of the Faith issued a decree that forbid missionaries to Baptize an adult, even in danger of death, who was ignorant of the truths necessary for salvation. This was based on the letter to the Hebrews 11:6.

In 1883 Pope Benedict XIV established requirements before Baptism could be administered to and adult, except in the case of danger of death. 1. Knowledge of the principle mysteries of the Faith. 2. The Creed. 3. The Our Father. 4. The Ten Commandments. 5. The Precepts of the Church. 6. The Effects of Baptism. 7. The Acts of Faith, Hope and Charity.

 

[lak611]

I learned yesterday that in 1703 the Congregation for the Propagation of the Faith issued a decree that forbid missionaries to Baptize an adult, even in danger of death, who was ignorant of the truths necessary for salvation. This was based on the letter to the Hebrews 11:6.

In 1883 Pope Benedict XIV established requirements before Baptism could be administered to and adult, except in the case of danger of death. 1. Knowledge of the principle mysteries of the Faith. 2. The Creed. 3. The Our Father. 4. The Ten Commandments. 5. The Precepts of the Church. 6. The Effects of Baptism. 7. The Acts of Faith, Hope and Charity.

Lots of cradle Catholics would probably be disqualified from being Catholic if they had to meet all those requirements. It reminds me of the tests for US citizenship. I think a lot of people who are citizens by birth would fail the test that people have to take to become naturalized citizens.

 

[HelenRose]

I found the above at canticanova.com/planning/year-c/plnevc_l.htm

I have verified this against the OCP “Today’s Missal - April 1- June 7 2007”

THere is an alternate form for the first part, the renunciation of sin.

Between this and the Creed, that is the dogma that must be believed to be accepted. A great deal of the church’s teaching is doctrine: you may not teach nor preach in violation of doctrine, but you are not required to believe it.

I think that you are correct. With teachings that an individual is uncertain about, he or she should be well disposed to believing.

When I became a Catholic, I did not understand the teaching on birth control. I believed that it was an ideal to strive for but did not accept it as reasonable or possible. Over the years, by studying more about the teaching of Pope John Paul II, I am becoming more convinced that the position is reasonable and possible. I still have reservations but it is a learning process.

When we are new Catholics, it takes a while to understand. We certainly don’t start out as saints. We are children who are struggling in our faith.

It is like walking into a beautiful forest and being expected to understand and name all the plants and trees we see. We can say we love the forest and want to be here but, please give us time to learn and understand all the miracles that surrounds us.

 

[Church_Militant]

What is the official teaching on adults joining the Church? Do they not have to believe everything the Church binds on the faithful? Do not all have to make a profession of faith saying they believe in all the Church’s binding teachings?

Yep.

My friend asked me a few weeks ago how she could turn Catholic. I said, “Do you believe the Catholic Church is the One True Church established, preserved and guided by Christ and is always correct on binding teachings?” She said, “no.” I then told her not to join until she believed that.

Right on!

In my mind, one of the things that reflects the worst on the Church and Christ is the existence of Cafeteria Catholics, people who call themselves “Catholic” but reject the authority of the Church. It was clear to me that my friend would have been a cafeteria from the get-go.

Yeah… as the saying goes.
“If you’re going to do a thing, you should do it thoroughly. If you’re going to be a Christian, you may as well be a Catholic.” Muriel Spark

However, under canon law, is there some blanket clause that says any adult can join the Church, regardless of what he/she believes?

Not that I’ve ever heard of…doubt is one thing, but denial is another altogether.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Lots of cradle Catholics would probably be disqualified from being Catholic if they had to meet all those requirements. It reminds me of the tests for US citizenship. I think a lot of people who are citizens by birth would fail the test that people have to take to become naturalized citizens.

The assumption of the Church is that an infant who is Baptized will be catechized and raised in the Catholic Faith AFTER Baptism. That hey aill be taught those things listed above by the parent(s) presenting the child for Baptism, with the help of the Godparent(s). We have many, many, poorly catechized Catholic adults who were Baptized as infants. Most RCIA, catechumens and Candidates are far better catechized than cradle Catholics from the last 40-50 years.

 

[lak611]

The assumption of the Church is that an infant who is Baptized will be catechized and raised in the Catholic Faith AFTER Baptism. That hey aill be taught those things listed above by the parent(s) presenting the child for Baptism, with the help of the Godparent(s). We have many, many, poorly catechized Catholic adults who were Baptized as infants. Most RCIA, catechumens and Candidates are far better catechized than cradle Catholics from the last 40-50 years.

The instruction from parents is usually “go to Mass, go to Confession, say your prayers because those are the rules and I said so”. Parents usually cannot explain “why”. Unfortunately, CCD has been so abysmal in recent years, that children usually do not learn “why” from CCD either.

 

[Michael96]

None of the posts have addressed the issue of what a person **must **believe. They are not required to believe everything the Church teaches; there are many things taught (and included in the Catechism) that are not dogmatically defined.

And therein lies the problem. There are aspects of the faith we can all agree are essential. And there are aspects of the faith that we can all agree are non-essential. But there’s a whole lot that some will construct an arguement to try to prove it is essential while others will construct an arguement to try to prove that it’s non-essential. I know several traditional Catholics who have signifcant problems with the ecumenical aspects of the Cathechism that were included after Vat-II (from LG 16); does that mean they must be booted out of the Church? I hope not.

So we must be careful to remember that not all Church teaching is infallible; and sometimes it is not easy to tell what should be taken as dogma and what shouldn’t (apart from those doctrines which clearly are dogmatically defined of course).

We may pay a heavy cost for putting someone of the Church because they weren’t “our type” of Catholic. It is possibly better if we don’t advise people not join the Church (especially before they have had the chance to explore the faith in a bit more depth); but rather advise them to explore the church using the RCIA.

 

[HelenRose]

I think a little common sense can go a long way in dealing with this question and the formula stated in an earlier post is the beginning. (See below)

If a person, especially an adult, can not in all honesty make these vows, they should not join the Church. It would be dishonest. Yes, there will be those who fall away. Sometimes permenently and sometimes for a while in which time they will be absorbing the lessons they have learned. We must trust the Holy Spirit as he guides all of us to the knowledge of God.

I agree that it is important for those wishing to become a Catholic should go through the RCIA process. If the Church expected everyone to thoroughly know and understand everything before becoming a Catholic, I don’t think that there would be a person in the world who could make that claim.

There are a billion souls that belong to the Church. Of course there is confusion, misunderstandings, and problems but for some unknown reason this is the way the Holy Spirit works. He has chosen frail and flawed human beings to carry on the work of God. We must simply do the best we can and turn the rest over to God.

Other than advising someone to go through RCIA and talk to a priest, as a lay person I would not advise anyone what they should do in this matter. I would turn it over to a priest.

Renunciation of Sin:
Do you reject Satan? I do.

And all his works? I do.

And all his empty promises? I do.

Profession of Faith:
Do you believe in God, the Father Almighty
creator of heaven and earth? I do.

Do you believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,
who was born of the Virgin Mary,
was crucified, died, and was buried,
rose from the dead,
and is now seated at the right hand of the Father? I do.

Do you believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting? I do.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

The instruction from parents is usually “go to Mass, go to Confession, say your prayers because those are the rules and I said so”. Parents usually cannot explain “why”. Unfortunately, CCD has been so abysmal in recent years, that children usually do not learn “why” from CCD either.

Well that is why the U.S. Bishops came out with ***Our Hearts Were Burning Within US ***Telling parishes that Adult Catechesis is the most important thing they can do with the childrens programs being secondary. Let’s see that was 9 years ago and not much has been done.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

None of the posts have addressed the issue of what a person **must **believe. They are not required to believe everything the Church teaches; there are many things taught (and included in the Catechism) that are not dogmatically defined.

And therein lies the problem. There are aspects of the faith we can all agree are essential. And there are aspects of the faith that we can all agree are non-essential. But there’s a whole lot that some will construct an arguement to try to prove it is essential while others will construct an arguement to try to prove that it’s non-essential. I know several traditional Catholics who have signifcant problems with the ecumenical aspects of the Cathechism that were included after Vat-II (from LG 16); does that mean they must be booted out of the Church? I hope not.

So we must be careful to remember that not all Church teaching is infallible; and sometimes it is not easy to tell what should be taken as dogma and what shouldn’t (apart from those doctrines which clearly are dogmatically defined of course).

We may pay a heavy cost for putting someone of the Church because they weren’t “our type” of Catholic. It is possibly better if we don’t advise people not join the Church (especially before they have had the chance to explore the faith in a bit more depth); but rather advise them to explore the church using the RCIA.

If it’s taught in the Catechism then it is the infallible teaching of the Ordinary Magisterium of the Catholic Church. We as Catholics do not need to guess or try to determine for ourselves what is or what is not the teaching of the Church. That has been given to us in the form of the CCC. The FIRST step or phase of RCIA is INQUIRY. This is 6 to 12 weeks of exploring the Catholic Faith and Practice.

I think that the requirements of pope Benedict XIV is a very good basis to work from. You might note that the CCC covers most if not all of his requirements.

 

[rwoehmke]

My friend asked me a few weeks ago how she could turn Catholic. I said, “Do you believe the Catholic Church is the One True Church established, preserved and guided by Christ and is always correct on binding teachings?” She said, “no.” I then told her not to join until she believed that.

This scenario really "bugs"me. It would seem that the thing to do would have been more along the line of Jesus’ reply to John’s two desciples after his Baptism:

[John 1:38-39] Jesus turned and saw them following him and said to them, “What are you looking for?” They said to him, “Rabbi” (which translated means Teacher), “where are you staying?”
He said to them,“Come, and you will see.” So they went and saw where he was staying, and they stayed with him that day. It was about four in the afternoon.

Your question is best asked after the inquiry period of RCIA, not at the get go. Its like blowing out the spark in the tinder; not likely to set many souls on fire.

 

[ponyman]

As Jesus said: “As bad as you are you know how to give good things to your children. How much more then, will your Father in Heaven give good things to those who ask Him” (Matt: 7:11)

Who are we, or the Church itself, to deny anyone who is genuinely seeking Christ? How many cradle to grave Catholics do you know that either do not remember or never learned the precepts of the Roman Catholic Church. Being a Christian is a life-long journey, it is one of growth and even regression at times. Would you really want to deny a person the opportunity to join the Body of Christ because he or she could not recite the same things that we have learned by rote often since childhood? Would you be the one who would stand in front of Almighty God and attempt to formulate a defense to the charge of denying someone the means to a salvific life and the salvation of their soul because of some legalistic stance? I certainly would not.

Does the phrase " Suffer the little children to come unto me … for unless you become as one of these little ones you shall not see the kingdom of Heaven…"mean anything to you?

“Ask and you will receive, seek and you will find, knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks will receive and anyone who seeks will find, and the door will be opened to him who knocks.” (Matt: 7:7) If Christ opens the door then who are we, and even the Church, to slam it shut?

We may ask ourselves how can anyone, especially a person who is only now knocking at the door and seeking acceptance in the Body of Christ, possibly know enough to satisfy the “entrance committee?” We are not talking about joining a country club or a fraternity here; we are talking about joining the Church and the body of Christ. How do WE know, or even the Magisterium know, that Christ Himself has not called this person to Himself, I think that the answer is rather simple, just look to the example of what Christ said to those who were the closest to Him while He walked the earth, the Appostles. Even after having been with the Master for all that time He admonished them because, even after all of the things that they had seen - including the miracles He worked, and the teachings they had received from God Himself, they still did not truely know Him. Even Peter, if you remembered, denied the Lord, just as Jesus had stated, three times before the cock crowed.

It is the mission of the Church to teach the Lord’s will for us. That is why we have the readings from the Gospel and the Bible itself. I dare say that even the Pope is in a constant state of learning even though he has been in holy orders for many decades. How then can we expect a novice Christian, who is seeking the graces of the Lord and membership in the Church, to possibly know everything that is necessary.

This is reason that Christ gave the commission emphatically to “…feed my sheep, feed my sheep,…feed my lambs,” if we love Him.

Remember, there are three means of baptism in our faith: by Decision, by water and by martyrdom. Surely then we can not and should not turn any one away nor should WE attempt to decide who will make a GOOD Catholic. If we were not all sinners then there would be no need for a Christ, now would there? Think about it. Ask yourself two things: What does the Word of God say; and then what would Christ say? Oh my, that is redundant since He already said it in Holy Scripture, didn’t He? Now the only thing that we have to worry about is what WILL He say on that day of the Last Judgment?
WE, as Catholic Christians, should be looking for ways to include people who desire to serve the Lord and even join us. WE should not be looking for ways to exclude them because that smacks of the hypocricy of the pharasees which Christ always spoke against. If the Church is only an exclusive club open only to those who fit the profile then we must ask ourselves what have we become?
In Christ,
Ponyman

 

[Michael96]

If it’s taught in the Catechism then it is the infallible teaching of the Ordinary Magisterium of the Catholic Church.

Is that really the case? Can you point me to reference that says all in the CCC is infallibly defined?

And did that just apply to the new Catechism? I have an older one (a “Penny Catechism”) with the doctrine of limbo in; presumably older Catechisms were not infallible?

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Is that really the case? Can you point me to reference that says all in the CCC is infallibly defined?

And did that just apply to the new Catechism? I have an older one (a “Penny Catechism”) with the doctrine of limbo in; presumably older Catechisms were not infallible?

APOSTOLIC
CONSTITUTION
FIDEI DEPOSITUM
ON THE PUBLICATION OF THE
CATECHISM OF THE
CATHOLIC CHURCH

"…On that occasion the Synod Fathers stated: “Very many
have expressed the desire that a catechism or compendium of all
catholic doctrine regarding both faith and morals be composed,
that it might be, as it were, a point of reference for the catechisms or compendiums that are prepared in various regions.”

1. The Doctrinal Value of the Text

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, which I approved June
25th last and the publication of which I today order by virtue of my Apostolic Authority, is a statement of the Church’s faith and of catholic doctrine, attested to or illumined by Sacred Scripture, the Apostolic Tradition, and the Church’s Magisterium.

I declare it to be a sure norm for teaching the faith and thus a valid and legitimate instrument for ecclesial communion. May it serve the renewal to which the Holy Spirit ceaselessly calls the Church of God, the Body of Christ, on her pilgrimage to the undiminished light of the Kingdom!

The approval and publication of the Catechism of the Catholic
Church represent a service which the Successor of Peter wishes
to offer to the Holy Catholic Church, to all the particular Churches
in peace and communion with the Apostolic See: the service, that is, of supporting and confirming the faith of all the Lord Jesus’disciples (cf. Lk 22:32), as well as of strengthening the bonds of unity in the same apostolic faith.

Therefore, I ask all the Church’s Pastors and the Christian
faithful to receive this catechism in a spirit of communion and to
use it assiduously in fulfilling their mission of proclaiming the faith
and calling people to the Gospel life. This catechism is given to
them that it may be a sure and authentic reference text for teaching catholic doctrine and particularly for preparing local catechisms.

It is also offered to all the faithful who wish to deepen their
knowledge of the unfathomable riches of salvation (cf. Eph 3:8). It
is meant to support ecumenical efforts that are moved by the holy desire for the unity of all Christians, showing carefully the content and wondrous harmony of the catholic faith. The Catechism of the Catholic Church, lastly, is offered to every individual who asks us to give an account of the hope that is in us (cf. 1 Pet 3:15) and who wants to know what the Catholic Church believes.

“This catechism is not intended to replace the local catechisms
duly approved by the ecclesiastical authorities, the diocesan
Bishops and the Episcopal Conferences, especially if they have
been approved by the Apostolic See. It is meant to encourage and assist in the writing of new local catechisms, which take into
account various situations and cultures, while carefully preserving
the unity of faith and fidelity to catholic doctrine.”

For me the parts in red tell me that the CCC is the point of reference that can be looked to today to find the clear teaching of the Magisterium of the Catholic Church on matters of Faith and Morals.

The last excerpt also indicates that other approved Catechisms like the Baltimore and Catechism of the Council of Trent are NOT replaced or superseded by this Catechism. But that they continue to be of great value to the Faithful.

I am not specifically aware of the history or approvals of the “Penny Catechism”.

 

[Michael96]

Thankyou Br Rich

I’m certainly not arguing that the Catechism shouldn’t be trusted as a teaching aid on Catholic Doctrine; but we don’t consider all doctrine to be *infallible *dogma do we? Or to put it another way: my understanding is that only dogma is considered definiatively divinely inspired.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Thankyou Br Rich

I’m certainly not arguing that the Catechism shouldn’t be trusted as a teaching aid on Catholic Doctrine; but we don’t consider all doctrine to be *infallible *dogma do we? Or to put it another way: my understanding is that only dogma is considered definiatively divinely inspired.

If you limit infallible teaching of the Magisterium to only defined Dogmas, it’s going to be a small and very short list.

 

[lak611]

Well that is why the U.S. Bishops came out with ***Our Hearts Were Burning Within US ***Telling parishes that Adult Catechesis is the most important thing they can do with the childrens programs being secondary. Let’s see that was 9 years ago and not much has been done.

Unfortunately, I have never heard of that letter. I am sure that I am not alone.

Fortunately, my parish does have adult education programs. I did learn a lot in those when I reverted. I actually got a copy of the Catechism from one of those adult education classes at my parish. We also have a Bible study. So it looks like the former and current pastors of my parish did know about the letter and are doing something about it.

 

[Spirithound]

1. Knowledge of the principle mysteries of the Faith. 2. The Creed. 3. The Our Father. 4. The Ten Commandments. 5. The Precepts of the Church. 6. The Effects of Baptism. 7. The Acts of Faith, Hope and Charity.

Lots of cradle Catholics would probably be disqualified from being Catholic if they had to meet all those requirements. It reminds me of the tests for US citizenship. I think a lot of people who are citizens by birth would fail the test that people have to take to become naturalized citizens.

Oh my! Looks like I could become an American easier than I could become Catholic (if i wasn’t already )…I better learn the Acts of Faith Hope and Charity

 

[quiet52]

ponyman
As Jesus said: “As bad as you are you know how to give good things to your children. How much more then, will your Father in Heaven give good things to those who ask Him” (Matt: 7:11)

Who are we, or the Church itself, to deny anyone who is genuinely seeking Christ? … Being a Christian is a life-long journey, it is one of growth and even regression at times.

…If Christ opens the door then who are we, and even the Church, to slam it shut?

We may ask ourselves how can anyone, especially a person who is only now knocking at the door and seeking acceptance in the Body of Christ, possibly know enough to satisfy the “entrance committee?”
WE, as Catholic Christians, should be looking for ways to include people who desire to serve the Lord and even join us.

WE should not be looking for ways to exclude them because that smacks of the hypocricy of the pharasees which Christ always spoke against. If the Church is only an exclusive club open only to those who fit the profile then we must ask ourselves what have we become?
In Christ,
Ponyman

Who is the “We” you’re referring to, who looks for ways to excude people from the Church? The Church does not deny anyone from hearing the Word of God or from learning about the faith. Jesus invited all to follow Him. The door is open. But even in the beginnings of the Church, people were not indiscriminately baptized – they first professesd that they would BE His disciples. Practicing Catholics cannot indiscirminately accept or reject the Truths of the Church as passed down from Jesus and His apostles. Those inquiring into the faith cannot demand to be Catholics before there is discernment that they know what they’re professing to believe and to practice.

When we profess what we believe during Mass (usually the Nicene Creed, but the Apostles’ Creed may also be recited) – we profess that we believe in **“one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church.” **

When we proclaim this, we are accepting Christ’s directive that we be ONE (unified) in faith and moral practice in His Church. This means we cannot believe according to what we want to believe – or according to what “feels” comfortable to us. We acknowledge the teaching authority of the Church, and strive to live as one in Christ and with one another. Receiving the Blessed Sacrament as a community is a sign of our unity of faith. Catholics who dissent or act contrarily to the faith should not be receiving Holy Communion. Those wishing to become Catholic need to first become as knowledgeable as possible about the Catholic way of life, as they work on their conversions of mind, heart and action, and as they discern whether they can assent to all the teachings of the Church.

We are acknowledging that the Church is HOLY because she is founded by Christ. Her members are sinners, yes – but as theologian Frank Sheed wrote, the Church is judged by her saints, not her sinners. The Church was founded by our Lord to help bring us to sainthood (residing in the eternal banquet). We are saints on earth when we strive to do God’s will – to love as He has loved us.

We are acknowledging that we are CATHOLIC or universal – the Church is open to all. All may attend Mass. We strive to serve all in need. We are to preach God’s word to all. This does NOT mean that someone who has attained the age of reason has a “right” to become Catholic no matter if he/she believes in the teachings. Throughout time, God has gradually revealed to humankind the truths about Himself, His love, and His Law. The Catholic Church has been given the fullest deposit of faith. The Church has a responsibility to teach the faith and to make efforts to ensure that (1) someone who seeks to be baptized understands the faith and accepts the teachings, and (2) that a child being presented as a baptismal candidate will be brought up in the faith.

We acknowledge that the Church is APOSTOLIC – that she is indeed the Church founded by Jesus and that He commissioned the Church to preserve and proclaim the teachings for all nations, throughout time. We acknowledge the authentic teaching authority of the Church, and we proclaim that Jesus is with the Church until “the close of the age” (Matthew 28:20). We acknowledge that we share in the Church’s central mission to evangelize to all. The central mission of the Church is to evangelize – to help each other, and others who do not yet embrace the faith, to become saints.