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Tom
Guest
Let’s look at the reference, maybe we can figure out where you’re making your mistake.
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Tom
Guest
Well, there’s a perfect example of misinterpretation. What is the definition of “cult”?
Main Entry: cult
Pronunciation: 'k<
Function: noun
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: French & Latin; French culte, from Latin cultus care, adoration, from colere to cultivate – more at WHEEL
1 : formal religious veneration : WORSHIP
2 : a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents
3 : a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents
4 : a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator
5 a : great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad b : the object of such devotion c : a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion
Isn’t ANY group who regularly meets to praise God, by definition a “cult”?
M
Mike_Brick
Guest
By the way, (BTW), I should have welcomed you to the forums in my first reply, so welcome, and we look forward to open and honest discussion.
One thing you will find out pretty quickly that won’t serve you very well here is to simply recite anti-Catholic talking points you have heard in the protestant world like, “it is a faulty system because it relies on things to do instead of focusing on something to be”. You must do better than that to make your argument.
We here, including our non-Catholic brethern that visit with us, enjoy a lively, well thought out discussion, and we all usually learn something by it. I have been married to a staunch So. Baptist, (who’s dad was a preacher), for 39 years and my Catholic faith is stronger for it. So bring it on, but don’t waste time on the trite talking points you have heard for so long, they don’t get any traction here.
BTW, I’m sure ChurchMillitant is relieved to know you believe he is saved, and the rest of us will have to await your further judgement.
(that icon means that is only sarcasm, used to inject a little humor)In Christ
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Contarini
Guest
The latter contradicts my understanding of the Catholic position. Isn’t that Donatism? Sin doesn’t invalidate ordination. I know there are some Catholics who are arguing these days that a homosexual orientation (not just practice) makes ordination invalid, because such people aren’t really masculine, but I think this is a pernicious and heretical interpretation that contradicts traditional Catholic teaching, and it’s not what you are talking about anyway (since you spoke only of openly practicing gays). As I understand it, no one openly living in any sexual immorality should be ordained as a priest, but if such a person is ordained it is still valid. Not to get off on a side issue here. . . .
You are certainly right that any church ordaining women is not in full communion with Rome.
Edwin
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Church_Militant
Guest
Edwin,
You’re right… that would be off topic here, however, my point is that the no one can validly knowingly ordain a woman or a homosexual.
The other point, (that your post adds weight to) is that they still would not constitute a separate Catholic Church.They might be dissenting, or even, (and very likely) excommunicated, but still not a different Catholic Church.
You’re right… that would be off topic here, however, my point is that the no one can validly knowingly ordain a woman or a homosexual.
The other point, (that your post adds weight to) is that they still would not constitute a separate Catholic Church.They might be dissenting, or even, (and very likely) excommunicated, but still not a different Catholic Church.
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Pondero
Guest
Christ founded a Church not the bible. In fact the only thing Christ ever wrote ( as recorded in the bible) is some scratching on the sand,and we don’t know what it was.
Mat 16:18-19 gives the authority to Peter ", upon this rock I will build my church and the gates of Hell will not prevail against it… and whatsoever is loosed is loosed in heaven and whatsoever is retained is retained.
It is only Protestants who break off from the church and put all their trust in their own interpretation of the bible. Without the church they have nothing left but the bible.
I interpret the bible in accordance with the teaching of the church as that is the only sensible thing to do. There is of course the other pillar on which the church rests .i.e. the apostolic tradition.
Mat 16:18-19 gives the authority to Peter ", upon this rock I will build my church and the gates of Hell will not prevail against it… and whatsoever is loosed is loosed in heaven and whatsoever is retained is retained.
It is only Protestants who break off from the church and put all their trust in their own interpretation of the bible. Without the church they have nothing left but the bible.
I interpret the bible in accordance with the teaching of the church as that is the only sensible thing to do. There is of course the other pillar on which the church rests .i.e. the apostolic tradition.
A
Ani_Ibi
Guest
If you have been doing a lot of research and you feel that telling us this is important to our understanding of your position, then it would help your case for you to post links to your research.
The references you cite should have links so that we can read them for ourselves.
As for putting trust in themselves instead of trust in God: now there is a thought! God established this Church on Earth. And this Church compiled the Bible. Who among us knows better than God?
Catholics are encouraged to think for themselves but not in isolation. We have been given the Church in order to throw ideas around and to finally come to a resting place in the Truth. So yes, we read the Bible for ourselves, think for ourselves, then consult Catholic sources to see how we can improve our thinking.
Now there are some areas of the Bible on which the Church has not yet definitively commented on. Others are covered by Magisterial teaching. Those covered by Magisterial teaching require our compliance and respect.
Here is Catholic teaching on the Bible, such teaching put together especially for Evangelicals.
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PBPGNFWMY
Guest
HI guys…I’m back. Baby sleeping…got a few minutes. I have read through the posts and I just want to be clear…
I apologize (no pun intended) if it appears that I am attacking you personally or being judgmental. When I write things from my perspective, they don’t seem offensive and I am sure the same thing goes for you…so I refuse to take anything personally in these forums. I do believe we are all after the same thing…I am convinced of my position, just as you are of yours. I really am a peaceful person and I’m not here to “argue” but to “discuss”. This does not mean I will not counter your position…that’s how a discussion works
OK, so there is a lot I could comment on from the posts but I want to try to stay on track…and focus on my first point:
Does the RCC teach that Catholics are to read the Bible or just believe the church’s interpretation of the Bible? **This is an honest question! ** Please give me the courtesy of being courteous
I ask this because while going to Mass with my DH, who was raised Catholic, I noticed that I didn’t see people bringing Bibles with them and he told me it was because the “Bible was read to them”. Your thoughts/experience?
I apologize (no pun intended) if it appears that I am attacking you personally or being judgmental. When I write things from my perspective, they don’t seem offensive and I am sure the same thing goes for you…so I refuse to take anything personally in these forums. I do believe we are all after the same thing…I am convinced of my position, just as you are of yours. I really am a peaceful person and I’m not here to “argue” but to “discuss”. This does not mean I will not counter your position…that’s how a discussion works
OK, so there is a lot I could comment on from the posts but I want to try to stay on track…and focus on my first point:
Does the RCC teach that Catholics are to read the Bible or just believe the church’s interpretation of the Bible? **This is an honest question! ** Please give me the courtesy of being courteous
I ask this because while going to Mass with my DH, who was raised Catholic, I noticed that I didn’t see people bringing Bibles with them and he told me it was because the “Bible was read to them”. Your thoughts/experience?
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PBPGNFWMY
Guest
I see your point, and I will sure try to do this in the future, I just am not that forum-savvy yet and very often in a pinch for time
As my handle/signature says, I need your patience!
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water
Guest
The Church does teach that Catholics are to read the Bible.
For this year, we have a theme called Year of Word. Therefore, besides listening to the Scripture at a Mass, I read them on my own time and study at a Bible class at my parish.
As a Catholic, I believe in all the teachings of the Church. I believe the Holy Spirit guides the Church.
You can see for yourself where one soly relying on his own interpretation can lead him to.
V
VociMike
Guest
The Church desires that Catholics should read the bible. She further points out that the bible can only be correctly understood in the light of the Church - that is, in the light of the teaching and Tradition of the Church. To simply pick up the bible, start reading, and assume one can understand it without error, is a guaranteed way to enter into error. Remember, every heresy uses the bible for support.OK, so there is a lot I could comment on from the posts but I want to try to stay on track…and focus on my first point:
Does the RCC teach that Catholics are to read the Bible or just believe the church’s interpretation of the Bible? **This is an honest question! ** Please give me the courtesy of being courteous
I ask this because while going to Mass with my DH, who was raised Catholic, I noticed that I didn’t see people bringing Bibles with them and he told me it was because the “Bible was read to them”. Your thoughts/experience?
Catholics typically don’t bring bibles to Mass because at Mass there is never the type of bouncing back and forth between passages that happens in many Protestant services. Selected passages of scripture are read on each given day all throughout the Church (one sign of her universality). These readings are on a three-year cycle, and most churches will have missalettes (sp?) which contain the readings, psalms, responses, etc for a given day. In addition, many people bring their own missals which have the same information in a more permanent format.
BTW, nobody would ever be frowned upon if they did bring a bible. It’s just that there is no need, and poking around in the bible outside of the scripture readings could easily distract from the rest of the Mass, where we are in the very real presence of God. As important as the scriptures are, they are not the pinnacle of the Mass.
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PBPGNFWMY
Guest
I’ve read the dictionary definition, but that rarely tells the whole story. Also, I didn’t accuse the RCC of actually being a cult, but I do think there are some cult-like similarities the most obvious being making followers believe that if they leave this institution they will be damned to hell. This is a good page I found that doesn’t just restate Protestant rhetoric but actually uses V2 to make their point…it’s lengthy but it’s only fair to comment after you read the whole thing
rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Cults/Catholicism/isitcult.htm
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PBPGNFWMY
Guest
This is a great response and explanation, thank you.
I think I have thumbed through one of those thingies you talking about at the last Mass I was at…I wondered what it was for…guess now I know.
But your response makes me wonder if by “poking around outside of the scripture readings” could also mean “putting the scriptures into the actual context in which they were written”. Hmmm…?
Also, scripture is not the pinnacle of the Mass? You mean not the most important part? Please expand…
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TobyLue
Guest
PBPGNFWMY
Thanks
You have stated how YOu have studied the Bible and apparently reached a decision that the CC teaches extra-biblical doctrines. You have made certain accusations against the Church but have yet to back up a single one of them. Please show us that YOUR teachings go back centuries and have been taught from the very beginning. Also prove to us that your interpretations were taught even before we had the Bible. Please back up your allegations from the ECF’s. Also I noticed that you state here “I believe YOU are an example of what the RCC started out to be,” Please share with usyour proof that CM is indeed assured of salvation and the rest of the CC is not. Also please explain the faulty systems you are talking about also please share how CM beliefs are different than what the CC teaches. I’m sure CM wants to know what he is doing right because he insists he is following the Church.
Thanks
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VociMike
Guest
There is nothing wrong with “extending” the scripture readings by delving more deeply into them and the surrounding and corresponding scriptures. Just not at Mass. The Mass is, among other things, the communal act of Catholic worship. It’s not “do your own thing” time.
The high point of the Mass is the Eucharist, the making re-present of the Sacrificial Lamb of God, by the power of the Holy Spirit. Thus during the scripture readings (the gospel reading, at least) we stand in respect, but during the consecration of the bread and wine, we kneel in adoration, for Christ is really and substantially present upon the altar.
J
John_Hiner
Guest
Laudatur Iesus Christus.
I was wondering what the “normal people” thought the Holy Spirit meant by:
δια τουτο οφειλει η γυνη εξουσιαν εχειν επι της κεφαλης δια τους αγγελους
Do you think it has anything to do with the place where He said:
עַמִּי נֹגְשָׂיו מְעוֹלֵל, וְנָשִׁים מָשְׁלוּ בוֹ; עַמִּי מְאַשְּׁרֶיךָ מַתְעִים, וְדֶרֶךְ אֹרְחֹתֶיךָ בִּלֵּעוּ.
I admit, I cannot quite make this out on my own.
Spiritus Sapientiae nobiscum.
John Hiner
I was wondering what the “normal people” thought the Holy Spirit meant by:
δια τουτο οφειλει η γυνη εξουσιαν εχειν επι της κεφαλης δια τους αγγελους
Do you think it has anything to do with the place where He said:
עַמִּי נֹגְשָׂיו מְעוֹלֵל, וְנָשִׁים מָשְׁלוּ בוֹ; עַמִּי מְאַשְּׁרֶיךָ מַתְעִים, וְדֶרֶךְ אֹרְחֹתֶיךָ בִּלֵּעוּ.
I admit, I cannot quite make this out on my own.
Spiritus Sapientiae nobiscum.
John Hiner
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Church_Militant
Guest
Yes it does…I apologize (no pun intended) if it appears that I am attacking you personally or being judgmental. When I write things from my perspective, they don’t seem offensive and I am sure the same thing goes for you…so I refuse to take anything personally in these forums. I do believe we are all after the same thing…I am convinced of my position, just as you are of yours. I really am a peaceful person and I’m not here to “argue” but to “discuss”. This does not mean I will not counter your position…that’s how a discussion works
The Catholic Church does indeed teach that we should read the Bible. [In fact, it encourages it by offering special indulgences for doing so](Lesson 14. Reading the Bible). As to interpreting the Bible…
This thread should help you better understand the answer to your question.
I own several Bibles and often carry my favorite with me to church, but generally I rely upon the Mass readings for that particular day. Frankly, I am more focused on the scripture readings than I ever was before, mainly because the way they were done in n-Cs services forced me to split my attention between the scriptures and whatever the preacher was saying about them as he went. At Mass, I am able to focus on the actual scriptures and then focus on the homily separately and that seems to help a great deal (for me personally). My wife and I do follow the readings in the missal.
This is odd, because I could assert the same thing about the n-C communities, since I have seen similar things said to people leaving them for the Catholic Church (among others).
However, these are still inaccurate representations of Catholic belief and teaching. I’d be happy to respond to that if you will e-mail me through this site. I have my e-mail set up so that I can answer stuff like that much the same way that I would here on the forums.This is a good page I found that doesn’t just restate Protestant rhetoric but actually uses V2 to make their point…it’s lengthy but it’s only fair to comment after you read the whole thing
Suffice it to say that I will disagree with their comments.
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Church_Militant
Guest
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Church_Militant
Guest
You infer something that is not a problem. I have never had a problem with it.
Mike didn’t explain that very well I don’t think. (No offense Mike)
The fact is that there are two main parts of the Mass.
- The liturgy of the Word, which consists of the scriptures and the homily.
and - The liturgy of the Eucharist. You would call it communion.
Of the two, the Eucharist is the more important to us, especially since the scriptures can be read any time.
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PBPGNFWMY
Guest
Wow…two good examples of Christ-like behavior…wait…nevermind.
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