Who should we pray to? Mary or Jesus?

[RyanL]

…is that right? I can’t recall Jesus ever saying, “Pray to me”…I recall some “whatever you ask the Father in my name” speaches, but never “Pray to me”…

Did Jesus ever tell us to pray to Him? Or did He only ever direct us to pray to the Father?

(trivial point, but it would be interesting to know…)

RyanL

 

[bengal_fan]

RyanL:

…
Let us also look at Rev 5:8, where the elders bring the prayers of the ‘holy ones’ on earth to the throne of God. How, if you would be so kind as to explain, do the elders in heaven (Saints) have the prayers of the ‘holy ones’ (us, on earth) to give to God?
…

gladtobe,
i would like to hear your response to this.

 

[elizabeth4truth]

gladtobe:

No where in scripture are we asked to consult the departed spirits of the dead, no matter where they may be. It is true that living Christians should pray for one another, but nowhere are we commanded in scripture to consult the departed spirit of Mary for assistance. Especially in the fact that Jesus said categorically, Come UNTO ME all ye that are heavy laden and I will give your souls rest." Jesus never implied that we should seek departed spirits to intercede to him. But rather we should come directly TO HIM. And if we are now able to come to God and Jesus directly, why would we need anyone else to intercede for us anyway?

Dear gladtobe,

A true Christian is living, no matter the state of their human being, dead or alive. Why do you object to the idea that “out of sight” doesn’t mean “out of mind” for Catholics? Who do you think is closer to God’s ear, a Christian on earth, or one that is in heaven?Have you found all things we should or should not do, are written in scripture? How about using communication devices like computers and telephones to reach others, is that okay with you?

Yes, one can and should go to Jesus, but there have been times in my life, when I felt so unworthy to even approach Him that I asked His Mother to help me do so. She did and she does, and for that I am eternally grateful to God The Father, Son and Holy Spirit for allowing her intercession, on my behalf. She is my Mother too and I love her.

Peace to you,
Elizabeth

 

[Lillith]

bengal_fan:

gladtobe,
i would like to hear your response to this.

Me too…and also before he was to be crucified our Lord was conversing with Moses and Elijah Matt ch. 17…

 

[bjcros87]

banjo:

Catholics don’t adore Mary and the other saints, they are revered for thier holiness. Adoration is for God alone.

My mistake I got mixed up. The same still applies I struggle with the reverence of Mary and the Saints.

 

[bjcros87]

wcknight:

Well… you are very much entitled to your own WRONG personal opinion !!!

Folks who “passed” are no different than folks who are living, because with God, he is the God of the living NOT of the dead.

Mary is the Queen of Heaven. She is the Mother of the King of the Universe. She is Queen of the Angels. Her Son is God Almighty. She is the Queen of Heaven. BUT we are basically nothing, sinners, mere peons in this cesspool of sin that we call earth.

Now IF you are a mere peasant with no clout what so ever, and you happened to know the Queen Mother of the King. Who do you think the King would listen to ??? you a mere nobody, or Mary who happens to be the Kings mother.

I would say that the odds of the King picking your voice or opinion over and above His own Mother’s are between slim and none.

I pray for Mary’s help because in the grand scheme of things, I’m a mere nobody. While Mary is the Queen Mother whose divine Son would grant any request.

You should notice that at the wedding feast at Cana, at Mary’s mere suggestion (she merely stated that they had no wine), Jesus performed His first public miracle. He objected that it was not yet time, BUT at her request he did so anyway. It didn’t sound like Jesus wanted to doing anything about it, but He did so for His Mother. That’s what I can influence !!!

Would he have done so if a perfect stranger like you or I had asked ???.. maybe… but for Mary, she knew He would refuse her nothing. A request coming for Mary will always be granted, something from you or I may not even be noticed. Given the possibilities, I think approaching Mary gives me the best chance of getting my request heard.

BUT IF you think you have more clout than Mary, then you are more than welcome to try.
wc

Now lets not start this type of arguement. My opinion is just as wrong as yours is. We can both say that each others opinion is wrong, but it doesn’t matter what you or I think.
Jesus will come to judge the quick(living) and the dead. So if all those who have passed before are living then why would Jesus judge the dead.
Your analogy is nice. However, it breaks down. I would know the king as the king represents Jesus. I am a personal friend of Jesus. I understand your point. If Jesus wasn’t supposed to make the water into wine. It wouldn’t have happened no matter how close they were to Jesus(except God the Father). Mary doesn’t give you the best chance for your case to be heard. It is Christ not Mary or the Saints who you should be asking.

 

[RyanL]

bjcros87,

Did you read the thread, or are you still shooting from the gut? It seems as though you have chosen the most low-hanging of the fruit to pick… If I am wrong, please correct me.

Pax,

RyanL

 

[MonicaC]

bjcros87:

My mistake I got mixed up. The same still applies I struggle with the reverence of Mary and the Saints.

Hello bj,

I am sure you read where it was typed that the reverence comes from there holyness. Mary was very holy and there for we can all assume that they are in heaven and in constant contact with our Lord Who better to ask then them to help us out. And who better to admire and immate for there good actions.

 

[MonicaC]

gladtobe:

No where in scripture are we asked to consult the departed spirits of the dead, no matter where they may be. It is true that living Christians should pray for one another, but nowhere are we commanded in scripture to consult the departed spirit of Mary for assistance. Especially in the fact that Jesus said categorically, Come UNTO ME all ye that are heavy laden and I will give your souls rest." Jesus never implied that we should seek departed spirits to intercede to him. But rather we should come directly TO HIM. And if we are now able to come to God and Jesus directly, why would we need anyone else to intercede for us anyway?

how about “[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God” (Rev. 8:3–4).

 

[elizabeth4truth]

How about reading 1 Corinthians 12-31

Apply this reading to the entire Body of Christ, on earth and in heaven. Apply Jesus’ prayer, “…Your kingdom come, Your will be done on earth, as it is in heaven…” What are those guys doing in heaven but continuing to live to glorify God? Can they help us fulfill The Lord’s wish for us to live on earth, like them, who are in heaven? You bet they can, and they do.

Thank you Holy Spirit for being with us until the end of time. Thank you for the faith to believe your mystery lives in our hearts and we believe in Your ability to work in and through us, the angels and the saints!!!

Elizabeth

 

[Eden]

It must be very difficult for Protestants who convert to Catholicism to approach the idea of “praying to Mary and the saints”. This is an entirely alien concept and, as such, must be somewhat frightening. If you are sincerely wondering what the “communion of saints” is all about in Catholicism, you will first need to suspend disbelief for a moment. I have found it quite perplexing, by the way, that some Protestant churches pray the “Apostles Creed” (which was composed by Catholics) and never seem to trip over the lines “I believe in the Holy Spirit; the holy catholic Church; the communion of saints”.

“Many people who do not share the Catholic Christian faith have difficulty with the appearance that Catholics pray to Saints and Mary, as one prays to God. This “praying to” appears to them to indicate a worship of the Saint or Mary what is due to God alone. However, earliest Christianity has always defined prayer as conversation, as in conversation with God. Conversation as any other act of communication requires a sign of the direction of the communication: one talks to someone, communicates with someone, prays to someone, etc. Hence, praying to God, a Saint, the Virgin Mary indicates simply the direction of prayer communication. It is more a matter of grammar and understanding communication than acknowledging the worship of the receiver.”

thesacredheart.com/inte.htm

This article answers your question more fully:

stmonica.cc/papers/interces.htm

Early Church Fathers seem to carry a lot of weight with Protestants, so here are some quotes:

St. Cyril of Jerusalem in his Catechetical Lectures, which were composed around the year 350, wrote the following. "Then we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep; first, the patriarchs, prophets, Apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplication God would receive our petition."5

St. Augustine preached twice weekly from the time of his ordination in 391 until his death in 430. He had this to say on our subject. "Prayer, however, is offered for other dead who are remembered. For it is wrong to pray for a martyr, to whose prayers we ought ourselves be commended."6 In his work, Against Faustus, written around the year 400, he writes: "A Christian people celebrates together in religious solemnity the memorials of the martyrs, both to encourage their being imitated and so that it can share in their merits and be aided by their prayers."7

 

[Mickey]

Eden:

It is more a matter of grammar and understanding communication than acknowledging the worship of the receiver."

This is a very good point Eden which should be stressed. Praying to The Blessed Mother and the Saints means to communicate with them–we are asking them to pray with us and for us. There is no worship here.

I think the real hang-up for many protestants is the living vs dead thing. To fall asleep in the Lord is to live in glory with Christ in the Kingdom of Heaven for eternity. This is true life the way it was always meant to be. Elijah and Moses are probably not going to appear to us in person, but you can bet they’re listening!

 

[Todd_Easton]

bjcros87:

My mistake I got mixed up. The same still applies I struggle with the reverence of Mary and the Saints.

The reverence of Mary and the saints goes back to apostolic times and is based on our reverence of Christ. Patrick Madrid says it best, “Any friend of God’s is a friend of mine.” Consider the following passage from the martyrdom of Polycarp, who was a disciple of the Apostle John, written about A.D. 155:

"…it is neither possible for us ever to forsake Christ, who suffered for the salvation of such as shall be saved throughout the whole world (the blameless one for sinners), nor to worship any other. For Him indeed, as being the Son of God, we adore; but the martyrs [or, more generally, Mary and the Saints], as disciples and followers of the Lord, we worthily love on account of their extraordinary affection towards their own King and Master, of whom may we also be made companions and fellow-disciples!
“The centurion then, seeing the strife excited by the Jews, placed the body [of Polycarp] in the midst of the fire, and consumed it. Accordingly, we afterwards took up his bones, as being more precious than the most exquisite jewels, and more purified than gold, and deposited them in a fitting place, whither, being gathered together, as opportunity is allowed us, with joy and rejoicing, the Lord shall grant us to celebrate the anniversary of his martyrdom, both in memory of those who have already finished their course, and for the exercising and preparation of those yet to walk in their steps.” (Chapters XVII and XVIII.)

 

[Todd_Easton]

gladtobe:

Why do we need Mary for anything in our prayers when Jesus will fulfill all our needs? That is the question.

Why? Because not all prayer is equally efficacious. As Scripture says, “the prayer of a righteous man [or woman] has great power in its effects” (James 5:16), and there are ain’t no man or woman more righteous than Mary and the saints in heaven with Jesus.

 

[wcknight]

bjcros87:

Now lets not start this type of arguement. My opinion is just as wrong as yours is. We can both say that each others opinion is wrong, but it doesn’t matter what you or I think.
Jesus will come to judge the quick(living) and the dead. So if all those who have passed before are living then why would Jesus judge the dead.
Your analogy is nice. However, it breaks down. I would know the king as the king represents Jesus. I am a personal friend of Jesus. I understand your point. If Jesus wasn’t supposed to make the water into wine. It wouldn’t have happened no matter how close they were to Jesus(except God the Father). Mary doesn’t give you the best chance for your case to be heard. It is Christ not Mary or the Saints who you should be asking.

I would never be so presumpuous to equate or suggest that my friendship even remotely approaches that of His relationship with His Mother.

I do pray to both, but personally I believe prayers through Mary and the saints are more effective.

And as Catholics also believe that it is “through Mary that all graces flow”, we happen to believe there is a bit more influence there also.

As I said are entitled to your own wrong opinion, as well as I and my fellow Catholics. You happen to think we are wrong and we happen to know you are wrong.

 

[mommy]

Eden:

It must be very difficult for Protestants who convert to Catholicism to approach the idea of “praying to Mary and the saints”. This is an entirely alien concept and,

I grew up church hopping through the protestant community. When I starting coming to mass with my husband, Mary never fazed me. It seemed so natural and obvious, she’s his mother and she’s pretty special! I find her story so inspriring, she’s an example for all of us to follow. It wasn’t until I started reading some ‘anti-catholic’ stuff that I even realized it was such a hot issue for some people. I still don’t understand it. I truly believe that for some (not all) it’s too difficult to give Mary any honor, simply because it’s a “Catholic Thing” and as such for some people, if it’s Catholic, it must be wrong. No amount of scripture, theology or tradition will change their minds. Not until they are ready to open their hearts.

 

[Lina]

Todd Easton:

Why? Because not all prayer is equally efficacious. As Scripture says, “the prayer of a righteous man [or woman] has great power in its effects” (James 5:16), and there are ain’t no man or woman more righteous than Mary and the saints in heaven with Jesus.

It is written in Romans 3:10-12 “as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one. there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.”

 

[RyanL]

Lina:

It is written in Romans 3:10-12 “as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one. there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.”

If you are right, you are the first christian I have ever met who thinks that Jesus wasn’t righteous…

 

[Lina]

RyanL:

If you are right, you are the first christian I have ever met who thinks that Jesus wasn’t righteous…

The point meant is that only Christ is righteous. Our righteousness is due to him dwelling in us.

 

[elizabeth4truth]

Lina:

It is written in Romans 3:10-12 “as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one. there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.”

Dear Lina,

Question: Does the above apply to those in heaven too, or do you suppose it is written for those living on earth? Are those in heaven living in righteousness and knowing and understanding God better then those living on earth? Are they one in His will or do they have wills, apart from God?

Elizabeth