Who started Christianity

[steve_b]

Hi! I’m a very ardent Catholic and a zealous follower of the Church, but I came across an argument the other day which I could not make a proper answer to, I guess because I do not know all the facts. Here is the statement:

This man claims that Our Lord was an apocalyptic, and had no interest in evangelizing.

Rather it was St Paul who started propagating ‘Christianity’ so called. How do you counter this argument and what are the facts that I can use against him? This is not just to win this argument, its an internet debate and I couldn’t care less, but I would like to know about this in case I have to defend it in earnest.

Jesus said “I will build my church and not even the gates of hell will prevail against it”

He gave His Church and the keys, to the one He renamed Rock…Peter

#34

%between%

 

[MarcoPolo]

I assume the friend is basing it on Jesus’ own words, quoted in the first three gospels that were written.

Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. --Mark 13:30

When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
–Matt. 24:34

“Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”
–Matt 16:28

And he said to them, “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power.”
–Mark 9:1

“Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God.” --Luke 9:27

.

None of these equate to Jesus “thinking the end of the world was imminent,” because his interpreters did not understand him to refer to the Ascension or the end of their own lives. I take issue with the gratuitous assertion that Jesus thought “wrong,” as the claimant implied.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

None of these equate to Jesus “thinking the end of the world was imminent,” because his interpreters did not understand him to refer to the Ascension or the end of their own lives. I take issue with the gratuitous assertion that Jesus thought “wrong,” as the claimant implied.

I agree with you. Jesus was talking about the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple, for the most part in the quotes. The destruction allowed for the diffusion of the gospel throughout the world.

Taken in context, it cannot be the establishment of his Church as some have said, however, the destruction of Jerusalem led to the establishment, worldwide, of Christ’s Church

27"For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS. 28"Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." (Mt. 16:28).

The Bible must be read against its historical context. During Jesus’ lifetime, ancient Palestine was a part of the Roman Empire, something that impeded the establishment of the Church.

Note: Marco, I meant all this “in general.” I just meant that I agree with you that I, too take issue with the gratuitous assertion that Jesus thought “wrong.” He didn’t, of course.

 

[MarcoPolo]

I agree with you. Jesus was talking about the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple, for the most part in the quotes. The destruction allowed for the diffusion of the gospel throughout the world.

Taken in context, it cannot be the establishment of his Church as some have said, however, the destruction of Jerusalem led to the establishment, worldwide, of Christ’s Church

27"For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS. 28"Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." (Mt. 16:28).

The Bible must be read against its historical context. During Jesus’ lifetime, ancient Palestine was a part of the Roman Empire, something that impeded the establishment of the Church.

Note: Marco, I meant all this “in general.” I just meant that I agree with you that I, too take issue with the gratuitous assertion that Jesus thought “wrong.” He didn’t, of course.

 

[Gorgias]

He did not approach her to minister to her. He wanted a cup of water. Had she simply given him the water and no backtalk, we have no reason to think anything would have come of it.

Yeah, you’re right. The King of Kings, the Savior of the Universe, the 2nd Person of the All-Knowing Godhead … he probably had no idea that she was in need of healing and conversion. What was I thinking?!?!?!?

And I think “minister” may be too strong a term - he did not heal her or forgive her sins.

I think your take on the meaning of ‘ministry’ is a bit too narrow.

He approached Jesus. I said Jesus never ministered to a gentile who did not approach him first. It is true that we have no record of Jesus giving any pushback, as he did with the Cananite woman.

Actually, you said, “we have no record that Jesus ever approached and ministered to any gentile, though he did (sometimes reluctantly) minister to them if they asked him.”

OK – so, at the very least, you’ve admitted that the “reluctantly” part is false. That’s a start.

And, if you meant “approached and ministered”, but not “approached or ministered”, then ok. However, does Jesus generally seek out those upon whom He performs miracles, or do they approach Him? I think the distinction you’re trying to draw out is insignificant. But… as I pointed out, He did approach the woman at the well, and ministered to her. (I think we can make the case for the Gerasene demoniac though, can’t we? )

Hello??? Diaspora! There would have been a sizable Jewish population in these gentile towns, as well as every other gentile town (and the same holds true today - lots of Jews live in Portland). There is no account of Jesus ministering or preaching to gentiles in these towns.

No – there is no account of whom He preached to, at all. Perhaps it’s as much a presumption that He preached to Gentiles as it is that He preached to Jews… but we see in the accounts that He’s ministering to Gentiles – not to Jews. That’s a telling point, I would assert.

 

[TK421]

People really can be so remarkably desperate in their interpretations and deceptions. It’s extraordinary.

I’ve seen some scriptures used so far, but not the exceedingly, painfully obvious coup de grace.

Matthew 28:19-20:
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

There. This theory has been scuttled.