who started your church?

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Lumen Gentium:
Oh yes. During the Soviet Union era and communism in the east, where was Alexey and his followers? In cowardice, they were all hiding behind the iron curtains, while John Paul II courageously spoke against communism, and courageously fought for freedom and human dignity.
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May God have mercy on your soul. How easy it is to accuse others of cowardice from the comfort of your armchair in a free country while they were being faced with unspeakable horrors. Thousands of bishops, priests and laity were already being murdered by the communist regime, and for the Patriarch to “courageously” speak out against communism would have been to invite even worse persecution against the already suffering church, for Alexey had not his own life to consider, but the lives of millions of faithful believers.
Do you realise that in six decades from 1917 onwards, far more christians were martyred for their faith in Russia than in the first three centuries of the Church! How dare you speak of cowardice when you cannot possibly comprehend the situation faced by the Moscow Patriarchate. May you be blessed with never having to face the choices they were faced with.
 
An added (technical) point in the flaw is this:
The Orthodox historian, to which Fr. Ambrose cites “integrity,” should have known better that** the term “Catholic”** was first used by St. Ignatius of Antioch in his letter to the Smyrnaeans circa AD 110, and did not start from Pentecost as what that Orthodox’s Timeline of History shows.
Furthermore, the term was later used by Clement of Alexandria in his Stromata. The technical use of the word "Catholic, " from Greek Katholikos "universal"which was derived from Katholou “in general,” was gradually established up to 3rd century.
To anybody who knows Church History, The Great Schism and the Geo-Politics of the early church that timeline is simply, preposterous.

PAX
steve b:
Fr Ambrose posted this timeline from an Orthodox historian.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=590582&postcount=15

Obviously I think what he did with the line is flawed. He puts the Eastern Orthodox who he says start in 1054, as the continuum of the Catholic Church, and the “Roman” Catholic Church beginning in 1054, veering off the continuum. It’s just plain silly. The point of posting this is
  1. to show that an Orthodox historian recognizes 1054 as being a name change, and the start of Eastern Orthodoxy.
  2. And you don’t find “Orthodox” as a proper name being used by this historian before that date.
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Thank you for invoking God’s mercy on my soul, a sinner. What seemed to be the cowardice silence of Alexey and his involvement with the KGB resulted (according to you) in the murder of the thousands of bishops, priests and the laity. On the other hand, JP2’s loud voice against communism and against the enemies of freedom and human dignity caused the eventual collapse of communism that ended the cold war. Courage is a gift from God. The same courage with the help of Mama Mary that led Jaime Cardinal Sin and millions of Filipinos in a bloodless revolt against 20 years of dictatorship in the Philippines. This very same courageous revolution that inspired other communist states to break away from the Soviet Union that led to its downfall. It was God’s work at hand through his church, the Roman Catholic Church with its brave leaders.

Didn’t you see the paradigm?

silence = cowardice = violence
speaking up = bravery = bloodless and non violent

PAX
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prodromos:
May God have mercy on your soul. How easy it is to accuse others of cowardice from the comfort of your armchair in a free country while they were being faced with unspeakable horrors. Thousands of bishops, priests and laity were already being murdered by the communist regime, and for the Patriarch to “courageously” speak out against communism would have been to invite even worse persecution against the already suffering church, for Alexey had not his own life to consider, but the lives of millions of faithful believers.
Do you realise that in six decades from 1917 onwards, far more christians were martyred for their faith in Russia than in the first three centuries of the Church! How dare you speak of cowardice when you cannot possibly comprehend the situation faced by the Moscow Patriarchate. May you be blessed with never having to face the choices they were faced with.
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Did it ever occur to you that the Popes outspoken condemnation of communism may have invited reprisals against Christians in Russia?
 
Such question, Prodromos, is irrelevant for obviously its purpose is to twist truthful facts. I wouldn’t want to entertain thoughts on it.

PAX
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prodromos:
Did it ever occur to you that the Popes outspoken condemnation of communism may have invited reprisals against Christians in Russia?
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steve b:
Obviously I think what he did with the line is flawed. He puts the Eastern Orthodox who he says start in 1054, as the continuum of the Catholic Church, and the “Roman” Catholic Church beginning in 1054, veering off the continuum. It’s just plain silly. The point of posting this is
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Yeah, you’re right in that it simplifies a rather complicated issue – it’s well-known that the roots of the schism dated back centuries. The chart also has other inaccuracies, which is neither here nor there. Here is pehaps a fairer overview from The Orthodox Church by Bishop +Kallistos (Ware), though obviously still from an Orthodox perspective. You may have read it already.
steve b:
  1. to show that an Orthodox historian recognizes 1054 as being a name change, and the start of Eastern Orthodoxy.
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An Orthodox historian – like any other historian – would recognize no official name change, and the practice of using the adjective “orthodox” stemmed from long before the schism, and was only used to describe the church long afterwards. To quote the OED:
This might in part reflect the widespread assumption that the epithet ‘Orthodox’ refers to the time of the schism with Western Christendom and is to be opposed to ‘Catholic’.
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The adjective was first used to describe the Orthodox faithful and Orthodox faith after the Council of Chalcedon. Indeed, the first attested usage of “orthodox” to refer to a church dates from 1772:
1772 J. G. KING Rites Greek Church in Russia Pref. 18 They are read at the grave to testify to the people that the party died in the true faith of the orthodox church
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prodromos:
Did it ever occur to you that the Popes outspoken condemnation of communism may have invited reprisals against Christians in Russia?
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John, this is a far different matter.
  1. Alexey II and his bishops were KGB agents. So JPII wasn’t going to get cooperation from the Orthodox hierarchy in defeating communism in Russia. Ask yourself, did the Orthodox hierarchy becomming KGB agents, save Christians in Russia? The ROCOR don’t think so.
  2. Catholic Churches inside Russia were taken away from Catholics and given to the Orthodox, under Alexey’s reign.
  3. JPII had millions of Catholics in Russia to lead. Many were martyred for their faith. As were Orthodox as well.
  4. Gorbachev said regarding the collapse of communism, “it wouldn’t have happened without the pope”. That’s good enough for me. He oughta know. And so much for Stalins sneer, “how many legions does the pope have”? Not a shot was fired! Without the pope I think we would have had a disasterous war.
JPII years ago now, asked Alexey for the Catholic Churches to be returned to Catholics. Alexey to my knowledge hasn’t responded. If anybody has updated news on this, please let us know.
  1. The ROCOR that Fr A belongs to, apparantly has a lawsuit
    against the ROC inside Russia to have property returned to them also.
 
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Maranatha:
Does that include the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints?
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Operative word “Started”. It ALL started with Jesus. Without Him, there would be nothing.
 
Phil H:
Their are Baptists denominations that trace their origion back to John the Baptist.
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I knew it. This is Great! Can you please point out some of the 2nd, 3rd, 4th century “Baptist” writers? I’d be interested in reading them. I also have an interest in visiting the ancient churches. Can you please tell me where I can find some first or second century Baptist church buildings in the ancient world? Thank you.
 
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ruzz:
Jesus Christ started ALL Christian churches.
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No Jesus Christ Started one Church. He said “You must be one” and “There shall be one flock and one Shepard.” AND, the evil one had to work for a full thousand years before he could drive a wedge in it. There was only one Church for the first 1000 years. Don’t take my word for it. Do the homework and find out for yourself.

May the peace of Christ be with you always.
 
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Ignatius:
No Jesus Christ Started one Church. He said “You must be one” and “There shall be one flock and one Shepard.” AND, the evil one had to work for a full thousand years before he could drive a wedge in it. There was only one Church for the first 1000 years. Don’t take my word for it. Do the homework and find out for yourself.

May the peace of Christ be with you always.
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So what happened to the Nestorians, Oriental Orthodox, etc.?
 
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ruzz:
Jesus Christ started ALL Christian churches.

.
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And I’ve got just the property for you. Only a few prime parcels of real estate left for sale on the moon. If you act immediately I think I can reserve the last parcel with a view for you. Don’t dally. They’ve been selling like hotcakes.:cool:
 
I think I’ll start a church of my own! :bounce:

Don’t be afraid to step out and join me ladies and gents! I’ll need some of you to help me put together a doctrinal statement and such. It’ll be fun!!!

😃
 
steve b said:
5. The ROCOR that Fr A belongs to, apparantly has a lawsuit against the ROC inside Russia to have property returned to them also.
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Not that I am aware of. There has been a mutual agreement by the Moscow Patriarchate and the Russian Church Abroad to cease all lawsuits over property. This is part of the reconciliation process which is underway. A google.com search would turn up the official Statements on this.

You may be interested to peruse a secular article which deals with this matter

Window on Eurasia: The Politics of Russian Church Property usbaltic.org/Goble/Goble5.htm
 
Fr Ambrose:
Not that I am aware of. There has been a mutual agreement by the Moscow Patriarchate and the Russian Church Abroad to cease all lawsuits over property. This is part of the reconciliation process which is underway. A google.com search would turn up the official Statements on this.

You may be interested to peruse a secular article which deals with this matter

Window on Eurasia: The Politics of Russian Church Property usbaltic.org/Goble/Goble5.htm
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It looks like what I was thinking of got settled out of court.
russianorthodoxchurchinexile.com/off20041.html
 
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Curious:
I think I’ll start a church of my own! :bounce:

Don’t be afraid to step out and join me ladies and gents! I’ll need some of you to help me put together a doctrinal statement and such. It’ll be fun!!!

😃
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I’ll join as long as you say you are a Christian church. Then we can rightfully claim that we also were started by Jesus Christ. For, if WE say so, it will be so. Kinda like “let there be light” and there was light. Except of course GOD said it and we would have a hard time duplicating that trick. Nevertheless, man keeps assuming GOD’s position of declaring, therefore it must be so.
There is only one visible shepherd over one visible flock, and Peter is still feeding and ruling them. Just as his Master commanded him to do, and He will be with Peter until the consummation of the world.
If we follow the Orthodox schismatrics, then by the same logic the SSPX is the true Roman Catholic Church, and Rome yet again left the True Faith. So 1000 yrs from now the SSPX can claim that they were from the beginning, the true church, even though they revolted against Peter in 1988 just as the E. Patriarch revolted in 1054, then claims they are the true church from the beginning. Now, if the eastern patriarch had all authority in primacy to declare Sacred Tradition and dogma, then no less does the SSPX to do the very same thing.
Now I see why GOD Almighty set up only ONE shepherd to Feed and to Rule until He returns.
 
Lumen Gentium:
Didn’t you see the paradigm?

silence = cowardice = violence
speaking up = bravery = bloodless and non violent
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I don’t buy into this paradigm and I’d like to offer Pope Benedict’ XVIs life to show why the paradigm doesn’t work.

As a young seminarian the Pope and his brother George were both obliged to join the Hitler Youth Movement. There was no choice, it was made compulsory in 1941. So in some ways he was in the same position as some Orthodox under Stalin

The Pope’s membership and his silence did not equate to cowardice and it did not lead to violence.

I must say that I am absolutely delighted with the election of this new Pope and pray that he will be given many years of life to accomplish great things for his Church.
 
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TNT:
…even though they revolted against Peter in 1988 just as the E. Patriarch revolted in 1054…
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No, there was no revolt. The Patriarch of Constantinople was excommunicated by the papal legate on two charges:
  1. omitting the phrase “and from the Son” from the Creed.
  2. having married priests.
Now since the Patriarch had never ever said “and from the Son” in the Creed for all the preceding centuries and centuries since those words had never been in the Creed, that was an unjust charge.

And since the Patriarch had had married priests for all the past 1000 years since the time of the Apostles that was also an unjust charge.
 
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