Who tempted Lucifer?

[Heismysword]

Except Lucifer was around before Adam and Eve. How was his integrity ruptured? Pride wouldn’t seem to be the answer, as it is a human emotion. I’d think a spiritual being would not be attracted to such a thing, especially one with no original sin to weaken him.

1. You put way to much stock into this question. Its almost like arguing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
2. You seem to think that because something is a spiritual being it can have no emotion or desire and therefore is unable/incapable of having any temptation to sin. Which cannot be true since we know Lucifer desires to seduce us to damnation and the Father desires to have us in heaven with himself.

The only reason we fall to temptation is because we are in a wounded state in this imperfect world. We are vulnerable to sin because of that.

What does our wounded state have to do with Angels? They are an entirely different kettle of fish. I think trying to shoehorn them into our very different form of existence is a grave mistake.

 

[Thorns]

1. You put way to much stock into this question. Its almost like arguing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
2. You seem to think that because something is a spiritual being it can have no emotion or desire and therefore is unable/incapable of having any temptation to sin. Which cannot be true since we know Lucifer desires to seduce us to damnation and the Father desires to have us in heaven with himself.

What does our wounded state have to do with Angels? They are an entirely different kettle of fish. I think trying to shoehorn them into our very different form of existence is a grave mistake.

Our wounded state is what can tempt us and what weakens us to sin. An angelic being was created with no original sin, so how was he tempted and how could he be so weak in an unwounded state that he’d fall to a sin that appeals to weakened humans?

 

[FCEGM]

I agree with that. My understanding of St. Thomas Aquinas is that he taught that the free will and the intellect are causally related. The will moves the intellect to think, and the intellect considers stuff so that the will can will them. See the Summa Theologica Part 1 Question 82 Article 4. In part based on this, it is my understanding that a free choice is a choice directed by the intellect to a particular end. Therefore, if my understanding is correct, the existence of free will presupposes the possession of intelligence, and the act of freely choosing includes the act of intelligently thinking.

And, as St. Thomas says in the Summa (First Part, Question 63, Art. 1), the choice Satan made was based on the good: his own good inordinately considered. So he didn’t need to be tempted from outside of himself or through any weakness of his intellect (which was superior), but from his own goodness over the One Who Is Goodness Himself.

 

[Heismysword]

Our wounded state is what can tempt us and what weakens us to sin. An angelic being was created with no original sin, so how was he tempted and how could he be so weak in an unwounded state that he’d fall to a sin that appeals to weakened humans?

When Adam Fell there was no original sin yet, since the Fall of Man was what brought about original sin, so an intelligent being must be able to sin without first having original sin. Original sin might make us more prone to continue sinning, but it cannot be the sole prerequisite.

Moreover, Adam was tempted with the idea of being “Like God”. So this sin (pride) was appealing to Adam in an unweakend state, why would it not appeal to an unweakend Lucifer.

 

[Thorns]

When Adam Fell there was no original sin yet, since the Fall of Man was what brought about original sin, so an intelligent being must be able to sin without first having original sin. Original sin might make us more prone to continue sinning, but it cannot be the sole prerequisite.

Moreover, Adam was tempted with the idea of being “Like God”. So this sin (pride) was appealing to Adam in an unweakend state, why would it not appeal to an unweakend Lucifer.

Adam and Eves fall is a bit more justifiable since they were tricked by the Father of Lies and Adam and Eve were also in The World. I still would think they’d have offered more resistance because they were unweakened though.

However, what appeals to humans isnt appealing to spiritual beings because their intellect far surpasses ours and they are not of flesh, so they dont have the senses that we have for them to fulfill or be tempted by.

 

[Thorns]

And, as St. Thomas says in the Summa (First Part, Question 63, Art. 1), the choice Satan made was based on the good: his own good inordinately considered. So he didn’t need to be tempted from outside of himself or through any weakness of his intellect (which was superior), but from his own goodness over the One Who Is Goodness Himself.

IOW, youre saying it came from within. I addressed that in my second point. Its not possible because original sin is what allows us to be tempted by our own self. Lucifer had no sin prior.

 

[TimothyH]

Except Lucifer was around before Adam and Eve. How was his integrity ruptured? Pride wouldn’t seem to be the answer, as it is a human emotion. I’d think a spiritual being would not be attracted to such a thing, especially one with no original sin to weaken him.

It has been the frequent teaching of the Church, her doctors and various writings that the sin of Adam wasn’t just original sin inherent to the human soul, but that it disrupted the entire order of creation.

There are many, many parts of the Bible which address in a very Semitic way, a very Hebrew way, the order of creation. Who gets to name whom, which animals eat which animals, etc. The order of creation is totally thrown into disarray in the Old Testament as is clearly shown many times.

The sin of Adam violently rent God’s order. People started killing each other. Incest began. The lifespan of humans began to shrink. Child sacrifice started. Etc.

-Tim-

-Tim-

 

[Thorns]

It has been the frequent teaching of the Church, her doctors and various writings that the sin of Adam wasn’t just original sin inherent to the human soul, but that it disrupted the entire order of creation.

There are many, many parts of the Bible which address in a very Semitic way, a very Hebrew way, the order of creation. Who gets to name whom, which animals eat which animals, etc. The order of creation is totally thrown into disarray in the Old Testament as is clearly shown many times.

The sin of Adam violently rent God’s order. People started killing each other. Incest began. The lifespan of humans began to shrink. Child sacrifice started. Etc.

-Tim-

-Tim-

How did Adams sin contribute to the fall of Lucifer if Adam wasnt created yet?

 

[Usagi]

Thorns, any comment on my post #18?

 

[TimothyH]

How did Adams sin contribute to the fall of Lucifer if Adam wasnt created yet?

You keep going back to a “Before and after” argument. Your assumption that the angel fell before Adam was created may or may not be right. The various creation stories in the Bible are not literal timelines.

Forget about what came first. The angel fell. His sin was pride. That’s all. Whether the chicken or the egg came first is a non-issue. Where the angel’s temptation came from can be figured out right after we all figure out how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Maybe the guys in the philosophy forum can figure it out.

-Tim-

 

[Aloysium]

Hmm. If we grant the common story that the idea of humans (or the Incarnation) had something to do with Lucifer’s choice to rebel, then there was an outside factor that could have led to his decision. Not “the world” or “the flesh” as we experience them, but related to both. Namely, that the material creation and the fleshly creatures within were the most beloved of God, and the angels – though created first and superior in every measurable way – were intended to serve God’s human children, who would become one with Him in a way available to no angel.

It would seem that from that, pure intellectual pride could develop and take Lucifer the rest of the way. (“I am magnificent, the first and greatest creation, second only to God Himself*. Yet now I am told my destiny is to be a servant to a race of barely-intelligent mudballs, whom the Creator will raise up to an unimaginable degree of glory by lowering Himself to their level first. Better to rule in Hell…”)

• An infinitely distant second, of course, but still true enough in his mind.

Usagi

Something like Matt 19:30 - “But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first.”

 

[Thorns]

You keep going back to a “Before and after” argument. Your assumption that the angel fell before Adam was created may or may not be right. The various creation stories in the Bible are not literal timelines.

Forget about what came first. The angel fell. His sin was pride. That’s all. Whether the chicken or the egg came first is a non-issue. Where the angel’s temptation came from can be figured out right after we all figure out how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Maybe the guys in the philosophy forum can figure it out.

-Tim-

The devil tempted Adam, so obviously Lucifer fell first

 

[Thorns]

Hmm. If we grant the common story that the idea of humans (or the Incarnation) had something to do with Lucifer’s choice to rebel, then there was an outside factor that could have led to his decision. Not “the world” or “the flesh” as we experience them, but related to both. Namely, that the material creation and the fleshly creatures within were the most beloved of God, and the angels – though created first and superior in every measurable way – were intended to serve God’s human children, who would become one with Him in a way available to no angel.

It would seem that from that, pure intellectual pride could develop and take Lucifer the rest of the way. (“I am magnificent, the first and greatest creation, second only to God Himself*. Yet now I am told my destiny is to be a servant to a race of barely-intelligent mudballs, whom the Creator will raise up to an unimaginable degree of glory by lowering Himself to their level first. Better to rule in Hell…”)

• An infinitely distant second, of course, but still true enough in his mind.

Usagi

It sounds like you’re still just saying Lucifers temptation came from within himself, which I argue could not have been the case considering he wasnt capable of that due to him lacking any original sin/wounded nature.

It is said that God “tested” the angels, but what kind of test could that have been? I cant help but equate Gods “test” to God being the “tempter/tester”, but it is also said that God never tempts.

 

[Aloysium]

It sounds like you’re still just saying Lucifers temptation came from within himself, which I argue could not have been the case considering he wasnt capable of that due to him lacking any original sin/wounded nature.

Satan did not possess the Beatific Vision, which is the mutual all loving relationship between creation and its Creator that we seek.
The devil could understand God through an intellect, which is far greater than ours.
The way I understand it, Satan was not tempted, rather it was revealed to him, that he would be the greatest of angels by serving man.
Why serve when you can lead billions, even if it is to hell. The rest is history.

That’s how I have put it together, not through any one source.

If you have a reference supporting that he would not be capable of sinning, I would be interested.

 

[Thorns]

Satan did not possess the Beatific Vision, which is the mutual all loving relationship between creation and its Creator that we seek.
The devil could understand God through an intellect, which is far greater than ours.
The way I understand it, Satan was not tempted, rather it was revealed to him, that he would be the greatest of angels by serving man.
Why serve when you can lead billions, even if it is to hell. The rest is history.

That’s how I have put it together, not through any one source.

If you have a reference supporting that he would not be capable of sinning, I would be interested.

Where did the temptation not to serve come from? Why would leading billions appeal to him? Being proud and wanting to be top dog is apart of being human, likely a distortion of our primal instincts of being hunter gatherers to ensure survival. Such would not apply to an immortal spirit.

I never said Satan wouldve been incapable of sinning, just that he’d be incapable of being tempted by his own self.

 

[TimothyH]

The devil tempted Adam, so obviously Lucifer fell first

As I said, the chicken and the egg. Send me a PM when you find out.

-Tim-

 

[Aloysium]

Where did the temptation not to serve come from? Why would leading billions appeal to him? Being proud and wanting to be top dog is apart of being human, likely a distortion of our primal instincts of being hunter gatherers to ensure survival. Such would not apply to an immortal spirit.

I never said Satan wouldve been incapable of sinning, just that he’d be incapable of being tempted by his own self.

I imagine that one of the smartest angels could figure it out.
Pride is a capacity in all beings I suppose.
I don’t share the same view about there being evolutionary animal qualities in man - top dog/hunter gatherer/survival instinct etc.

For me it’s not an issue as to the need for temptation.
I personally think it is sin within me that leads me to sin, if that makes sense; I seem to want it in spite of what I know to be good and true. But, it’s complicated.

I don’t know enough about angels to offer any more about this.
If you do find some reference as to the tempation of Satan, do post it.

 

[Cromwell4]

You seem to be hung up on idea of necessity of Temptation for sin.
Not so, even humans when excessively evil/depraved need no temptation to commit a sin.

It is simply a matter of Choice. We know it is evil yet we do it.

The same applies to Satan. God gave all his creatures - angelic & human - Free Will/Choice. Satan chose Evil. We should not apply Pride, Envy, Anger, etc. to his choice as some sort of excuse. These are human emotions…angels do not have emotions.
Angels, like humans, were created for the glorification of God. Like humans, they can reject that role. Some did. Temptation does not figure in it in any way.

 

[Thorns]

I don’t share the same view about there being evolutionary animal qualities in man - top dog/hunter gatherer/survival instinct etc.

Neither do I. What I described were/are qualities of a human being. Just as humans don’t have animal qualities, angels don’t have human qualities.

Not to change the subject or derail the thread, but just as a side comment, surely you believe that humans have survival instincts? When we sense we are in danger, we either fight or flight. When we become hungry, our empty stomachs grumble and drive us to seek food, etc.

For me it’s not an issue as to the need for temptation.
I personally think it is sin within me that leads me to sin, if that makes sense; I seem to want it in spite of what I know to be good and true. But, it’s complicated.

You are a fallen human in a weakened state that is capable of being tempted by the flesh and the world in addition being subjected to Satan’s temptations.

Satan/Lucifer was not in a weakened state, was not in the world and possesses no flesh, nor was there a devil in existence to be vulnerable to, which brings us back to square one and to my initial question.

 

[Thorns]

You seem to be hung up on idea of necessity of Temptation for sin.
Not so, even humans when excessively evil/depraved need no temptation to commit a sin.

There are no such humans alive that fall under the category of excessively evil/depraved. Humans commit sin because they see a perceived good in an action, such as for pleasure or something selfish. Nobody commits sin for the sake of being damned.

It is simply a matter of Choice. We know it is evil yet we do it.

You have to know something is wrong and still do it for it to be a sin. In order to know something is wrong, you have to think about it and the consequences of that action. During this step in the process is where temptation occurs. You are presented by choices of what to do; do the right thing and be inconvenienced in some way, or do the wrong thing and fulfill your own desire.

The same applies to Satan. God gave all his creatures - angelic & human - Free Will/Choice. Satan chose Evil. We should not apply Pride, Envy, Anger, etc. to his choice as some sort of excuse. These are human emotions…angels do not have emotions.
Angels, like humans, were created for the glorification of God. Like humans, they can reject that role. Some did. Temptation does not figure in it in any way.

It has to figure in 100% of the time. If there is no temptation, then there is nothing to ponder, no choice to be made, and thus no sin.

If Lucifer just made a choice without being tempted/thinking (hard to believe that a being with a vastly superior intellect to humans would make an eternal choice without thinking), even if it was the wrong choice, he committed no sin. For a sin to occur, knowledge and intent have to be present.