Who to believe regarding the last days?

[zarthan]

There are many early church fathers who speak of the last days. Here is a list of those who speak of the anti-christ who is to come in the last days and who is destroyed by our Lord Jesus Christ when He returns. (2 Thess. 2:8.)

Justin Martyr, teacher (A.D. 110-165) in chap. cx of his Dialogue with Trypho.

Irenaeus, Bishop of Lyons (A.D. 120-202) in Book IV, chapters xxv-xxxvi of his Against Heresies

Tertullian, presbyter of Carthage (A.D. 145-220) in Book V, chap. xvi of his Against Marcion

Hippolytus, Bishop of Portus (A.D. 170-236) in his Treatise on Christ and Anti-Christ

Ireneaus in the aforementioned work, speaks of the restoration of creation during a millennial reign of Christ on earth in the restored Jerusalem on earth when he returns. He also quotes the scripture regarding ‘those who are alive and being caught up in the air when the Lord returns’, and many other such things.

Tertullian also speaks of the restoration of creation here on earth during a millennial reign of a restored Jerusalem here on earth. He also quotes the same scripture regarding the saints being caught up to meet the Lord in the air. These things and more can be found in Book III, chap. xxv in the same work, Against Marcion.

In conclusion, we have the testimony of four witnesses in sacred scripture speaking about the anti-christ who is to come before the return of our Lord Jesus Christ: the prophet Daniel, Jesus Christ our Lord, the apostle Paul, and the apostle John. We also have the testimony of four witnesses who lived in the second century: Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, and Hippolytus.

I will defer to these witnesses over any teaching that is contrarily being taught either by Protestants or by Catholics

 

[OraLabora]

How about we believe what is written in the Creed:

“He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead
and his kingdom will have no end.”

Isn’t this all we are really required to believe dogmatically about the end times?

 

[spencer2]

Concern yourself with your end days as most of us will be gone by the time Christ returns.

 

[zarthan]

How about we believe what is written in the Creed:

“He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead
and his kingdom will have no end.”

Isn’t this all we are really required to believe dogmatically about the end times?

Yes, this is all that Catholics are required to believe. I was addressing Catholics or Protestants who teach that the era of the anti-Christ spoken of in the scriptures has passed with the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 A.D., or does not exist at all.

 

[revert_jen]

I prefer to believe Jesus: “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.”

It’s not entirely clear what position you are espousing here. Since the witnesses to which you refer are generally not all talking about the same thing, it would be better if you stated what you believe they are all saying.

Justin Martyr does not seem to be specifically referring to the views that you seem to be talking about.

About Irenaeus, could you be a little more specific than 11 chapters? I can’t find what you are referencing, but I could have missed it. An actual quote relating to a millennial reign would be helpful.

I believe Tertullian ended up a heretic, so he is possibly not the best source. Anyway, I don’t see anything millennial in the referenced chapter.

Wasn’t Hyppolytus also estranged from the church for a good while, being the head of an early schismatic movement? In any case, the document is too long to read so late at night.

If you want to reference the early fathers, actual quotes are better than vague references.

–Jen

 

[zarthan]

I prefer to believe Jesus: “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.”

It’s not entirely clear what position you are espousing here. Since the witnesses to which you refer are generally not all talking about the same thing, it would be better if you stated what you believe they are all saying.

Justin Martyr does not seem to be specifically referring to the views that you seem to be talking about.

About Irenaeus, could you be a little more specific than 11 chapters? I can’t find what you are referencing, but I could have missed it. An actual quote relating to a millennial reign would be helpful.

I believe Tertullian ended up a heretic, so he is possibly not the best source. Anyway, I don’t see anything millennial in the referenced chapter.

Wasn’t Hyppolytus also estranged from the church for a good while, being the head of an early schismatic movement? In any case, the document is too long to read so late at night.

If you want to reference the early fathers, actual quotes are better than vague references.

–Jen

Who is talking about the day and the hour? I am talking about the great apostasy that will take place and the great persecution that will take place through the anti-christ. There are those who say Nero was the anti-christ, or Caligula, but neither of these set up an abomination in the temple. We must be spiritually prepared, for we know not the hour when the Lord returns. Here are some of the scriptures of the four witnesses, the early church fathers will follow.

Daniel 9:27 “For one week he shall make a firm compact with the many; Half the week he shall abolish sacrifice and oblation; On the temple wing shall be the horrible abomination until the ruin that is decreed is poured out upon the horror.”

Matt.24: 15-16 ”When you see the desolating abomination spoken of through Daniel the prophet standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then those in Judea must flee to the mountains”

2 Thess. 2:3-5 “Let no one deceive you in any way. For unless the apostasy comes first and the lawless one is revealed, the one doomed to perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god and object of worship, so as to seat himself in the temple of God, claiming that he is a god—do you not recall that while I was still with you I told you these things?”v.8 "Then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will kill with the breath of his mouth and render powerless by the manifestation of his coming.”

Rev.13:5-8 “The beast was given a mouth uttering proud boasts and blasphemies, and it was given authority to act for forty-two months. It opened its mouth to utter blasphemies against God, blaspheming his name and his dwelling and those who dwell in heaven. It was also allowed to wage war against the holy ones and conquer them, and it was granted authority over every tribe, people, tongue, and nation. All the inhabitants of the earth will worship it, all whose names were not written from the foundation of the world in the book of life, which belongs to the Lamb who was slain.”

 

[zarthan]

I prefer to believe Jesus: “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.”

It’s not entirely clear what position you are espousing here. Since the witnesses to which you refer are generally not all talking about the same thing, it would be better if you stated what you believe they are all saying.

Justin Martyr does not seem to be specifically referring to the views that you seem to be talking about.

About Irenaeus, could you be a little more specific than 11 chapters? I can’t find what you are referencing, but I could have missed it. An actual quote relating to a millennial reign would be helpful.

I believe Tertullian ended up a heretic, so he is possibly not the best source. Anyway, I don’t see anything millennial in the referenced chapter.

Wasn’t Hyppolytus also estranged from the church for a good while, being the head of an early schismatic movement? In any case, the document is too long to read so late at night.

If you want to reference the early fathers, actual quotes are better than vague references.

–Jen

Here are some of the quotations from these early church fathers, there are literally pages and pages to quote from. Hippolytus was not estranged from the church. Tertullian was a bit eccentric, but it would be unfair to call him a heretic.

**Justin Martyr **(Dialogue with Trypho chap. cx.) “And I am likewise aware that they maintain He has not yet come; or if they say that He has come, they assert that it is not known who He is. …O unreasoning men! Understanding not what has been proved by all these passages, that two advents of Christ have been announced: the one, in which He is set forth as suffering, inglorious, dishonored, and crucified; but the other, in which He shall come from heaven with glory, when the man of apostasy who speaks strange thins against the Most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians.”

**Ireneaus **(Against Heresies, Book V, chap. xxv) “…by means of the events which shall occur in the time of Antichrist is it shown that he, being an apostate and a robber, is anxious to be adored as God, and that, although a mere slave, he wishes himself to be proclaimed a king. For he (Antichrist) being endued with all the power of the devil, shall come, not as a righteous king, nor as a legitimate king, in subjection to God, but an impious, unjust, and lawless one; as an apostate, iniquitous and murderous; as a robber, concentrating in himself satanic apostasy…of whom the apostle thus speaks in the second epistle to the Thessalonians: “unless there shall come a falling away first, and man of shall be revealed, the son of perdition, who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself as if he were God”

**Hippolytus **(Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, chap 62,63,66). “The Lord also says, “When you shall see the abomination of desolation stand in the holy place (whoso readeth, let him understand)…And except those days be shortened, there should no flesh be saved”.
And Daniel says, “And they shall place the abomination of desolation a thousand two hundred and ninety days…”And the blessed apostle Paul, writing to the Thessalonians, says:…Let no one deceive you by any means; for that day shall not come except there come the falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition…whom the Lord Jesus shall consume with the Spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with brightness of His coming…” For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice and trump of God, and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

**Tertullian **(Against Marcion, Book V, chap.xvi) “Well, but who is ‘the man of sin, the son of perdition,’ who must first be revealed before the Lord comes; ‘who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped…According indeed to our view, he is Antichrist; as it is taught us in both he ancient and new prophecies”

 

[revert_jen]

Here are some of the quotations from these early church fathers, there are literally pages and pages to quote from. Hippolytus was not estranged from the church. Tertullian was a bit eccentric, but it would be unfair to call him a heretic.

I thought Tertullian was acknowledged to have ended his life as a Montanist, and that Hippolytus had been at one time an anti-pope.

Anyway, like I said, it is a lot easier to have a discussion if one knows your position. I thought it was about the thousand-year reign of Christ on earth, and I couldn’t find any support for that in your sources.

Actually, I disagree with your interpreation of the scriptural passages, and I don’t know what I could be doing to prepare for the coming of an Anti-Christ, that I shouldn’t be doing anyway to prepare for my particular judgement. Since the temple no loger exists, I think that whatever was referring to the Temple must refer to something in the past.

But in the end, I don’t expect to change your mind, and I know you won’t change mine. I just wanted you to be specific about the position that you felt the Church Fathers were supporting.

–Jen

 

[zarthan]

I thought Tertullian was acknowledged to have ended his life as a Montanist, and that Hippolytus had been at one time an anti-pope.

Anyway, like I said, it is a lot easier to have a discussion if one knows your position. I thought it was about the thousand-year reign of Christ on earth, and I couldn’t find any support for that in your sources.

Actually, I disagree with your interpreation of the scriptural passages, and I don’t know what I could be doing to prepare for the coming of an Anti-Christ, that I shouldn’t be doing anyway to prepare for my particular judgement. Since the temple no loger exists, I think that whatever was referring to the Temple must refer to something in the past.

But in the end, I don’t expect to change your mind, and I know you won’t change mine. I just wanted you to be specific about the position that you felt the Church Fathers were supporting.

–Jen

Well, my interpretation of the scriptural passages are not mine. They are that of Justin Martyr, Ireneaus, (St.Hippolytus, feast day Aug.13) and Tertullian(a charismatic).

The temple did not exist in the days of the aforementioned early church fathers either, yet they believed such a temple would exist in the future. Preparations are being made in Jerusalem for the third Jewish Temple:
templemount.org/tempprep.html

As far as preparation for the future, that is something between the individual and our heavenly Father. For myself, I won’t dissuade any Catholic or Protestant from thinking that there will not be a great apostasy, or an Anti-Christ in the last days before the return of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[COPLAND_3]

I am in the process of doing a major work on Revelation, in which I have started working on Revelation and the millennial views of the Fathers. On the link below you will notice that I have the Scripture passage in the middle while surrounded by commentary from the Fathers and later medieval commentators, and then at the bottom I give my analysis. catenas.wetpaint.com/page/Rev+20

 

[TheOneMediator]

I am in the process of doing a major work on Revelation, in which I have started working on Revelation and the millennial views of the Fathers. On the link below you will notice that I have the Scripture passage in the middle while surrounded by commentary from the Fathers and later medieval commentators, and then at the bottom I give my analysis. catenas.wetpaint.com/page/Rev+20

I’ve been studying Revelation for years. Much of what is desribed in Revelation has been fulfilled. Here’s a summary… At this point all that remains is the enforcement of the mark of the beast, the plagues on those who receive the mark of the beast and the return of the Lord Jesus in glory with all His angels to receive His people and take them to heaven. Anti-Christ simply means “In place of Christ”. Anti-Christ receives his power from that great serpent the devil who was cast down out of heaven. Satan opposes Christ in every way. He wanted to be God in heaven and so had to be thrown out. He has continued his attempt to gain the worship of God’s people. God’s elect will not be deceived. They will not accept the mark of the beast. People, both rich and poor who do not accept the mark of the beast will not be able to trade or do business. Consider in the last 10 years alone the proliferation of credit cards and internet trade. A cashless society is lurking. We’re almost there. The present economic turmoil is designed to bring the current economic system to an end. Just this week several hundred workwide banks were talking about a one world currency. This is necessary in order to enforce the mark. Central control is necessary in order to fulfill this biblical prophecy (Revelation 13,16-17) which WILL come to pass…

T.O.M.

 

[ryanoneil]

It did come to pass within the generation Christ was speaking to. The devastation of the Temple and the judgment of Israel in 70 A.D. is a prefigurement to greater things at the end of time.

When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison. He will go out to deceive the nations at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. They invaded the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the holy ones and the beloved city. But fire came down from heaven and consumed them. (Rev 20:7-9)

 

[zarthan]

I am in the process of doing a major work on Revelation, in which I have started working on Revelation and the millennial views of the Fathers. On the link below you will notice that I have the Scripture passage in the middle while surrounded by commentary from the Fathers and later medieval commentators, and then at the bottom I give my analysis. catenas.wetpaint.com/page/Rev+20

Thanks, John. Excellent compilation of amillenial and premillenial quotes. I really appreciate your attitude towards those who may hold to a premillenial viewpoint eventhough you are an amillenialist. It would be refreshing if each side of the aisle could have such an attitude as yours. May God bless your endeavor according to His will.

 

[zarthan]

I am in the process of doing a major work on Revelation, in which I have started working on Revelation and the millennial views of the Fathers. On the link below you will notice that I have the Scripture passage in the middle while surrounded by commentary from the Fathers and later medieval commentators, and then at the bottom I give my analysis. catenas.wetpaint.com/page/Rev+20

Just a few comments about the Jewish Christian element to the premillenial understanding. Yes, there is the six day, six thousand year understanding followed by the seventh day, or seventh (one thousand years) of sabbath rest. A rest that will cleanse and restore the earth. This seventh day is followed by the eighth day. Since our Lord Jesus Christ rose from the dead on the eighth day, He represents the beginning of the new creation that will take place when a new heavens and a new earth come into being after the seventh millenium day.

In addition, Zechariah 14:16-19 speaks of the time when all the nations come up to Jerusalem to celebrate Succoth, or the Feast of Tabernacles during this millenium (as presumed). All of the seven Jewish holy days have a prophetic prefigurement to them. The Feast of Tabernacles represents the forward looking to of Rev.21:1-3 which concludes by saying, “Behold, God’s dwelling is with the human race. He will dwell with them and they will be his people and God himself will always be with them.” Thus, fulfilling God’s ultimate purpose for His creation as stated by the apostle Paul: “that God may be all in all”.
(1 Corinth. 15:28)

May His peace remain with you.