Who was more physically beautiful, Adam or Eve?

[Lea101]

That would seem a bizarre pairing for a romantic couple. What would make it strange though?

It would seem strange, because he’s out of her league. Since we’re talking about physical beauty, this whole conversation is going to sound superficial.

We would expect Chris Hemsworth to be with a woman who most would regard as at least “pretty,” if not with a drop-dead gorgeous woman. Right?

Yup. Likewise, a beautiful woman with a not so good looking man would look strange. Usually stereotypes and jokes of her being a gold digger would be brought up. Basically a romantic relationship with a drastic difference in attractiveness would seem strange, no matter the genders. Because attraction is key.

With the strength example, it would be a medical anomaly. We can say that yes, there’s something wrong with this man’s development if he’s weaker than an untrained woman.

Also surely the equal counterpart of ‘normal woman, weak man’ would be ‘normal woman, ugly man’? The analogy is not equivalent in semantics? You’re comparing a significantly weak man to a Plain Jane, and Chris to a normal woman.

Regardless, I actually don’t see how this supports your hypothesis though. The relationship aspect of your analogy has nothing to do with strength, while the relationship aspect is important when we’re talking about beauty (because what’s odd with Chris and Plain Jane is that he’s attracted to her).

So as I said earlier, even if we were to look at Scarlett Jo. & Danny Devito, people will still find it odd.

If we minus off the relationship aspect of it and look at the traits in isolation, a man weaker than an average woman would be seen as strange. Because that implies something physically wrong with him.

An ugly woman or a Plain Jane wouldn’t be seen in the same way. She was just unlucky in the genetic lottery.

I feel like you’re making a claim about a trait inherently within a person, but you keep using concepts of relationships to explain it. Which makes this a little messy because we have to keep taking into account factors that affect attraction rather than the trait in isolation.

 

[Lea101]

It seems to me that you’ve undersold women and oversold men.

I don’t see it because i think beautiful women are rare, but men who are stronger than me are very common because they are biologically made to be. I can see why it seems like it if you think beauty is extremely common to you, though. It’s almost like beauty is…subjective

So, full disclosure, I’m single. Not married, not even in a relationship

Same here.

And, I have to say that when I’m out and about, I see pretty women everywhere

That may very well be true. It’s possible that you’re in a place with beautiful women. I’m not American, but I know Americans tend to say things like ‘She’s a New York 6, but she’s an 8 in Ohio’.

You’re also single, chaste (I’m assuming) and male. That combo would probably make it impossible for you to avoid attraction!

One sad explanation that’s pretty much just speculation is that uglier women (or at least those you don’t find attractive) just never got your attention. In Princess Diaries, someone literally sat down on the frumpy female protagonist and quickly responded something like ‘sorry, I didn’t see you there’. It’s obviously a joke, but they’re commenting on how below average women are just not noticed.

I see beauty all over the place. As I say, I think you may be downplaying your own gender.

I may be. But to be fair, I rarely see attractive men where I’m from as well. Beautiful people in general are hard to come across and when they do…boy the amount of attention they get.

Again, it may be location based. I’m in Singapore, and us Asians usually don’t conform to the average beauty standards. This may play a role in how attractive I find people. I find most Western people to be not ugly, lol. Americans/Europeans tend to come here and say things like ‘most women here are not attractive’.

So after all of these long posts, I’m just saying that physical beauty is too subjective to say that one sex is inherently more beautiful than the other. Strength on the other hand, can be quantified. I can say a man has no strength at all if he can’t move, but beauty cannot be easily measured. Even you tried to quantify it by saying it’s about how many heads turning, but even you know that’s not a good measure.

Strength and beauty—these two qualities do seem to have particular expression among the two genders

Yes, we agree on this. We differ on whether beauty is inherent in one sex though. Or at least not in the way you seem to be describing.

 

[englands123]

Totally correct.

Only a human being would question beauty formed from the outside.

Thankfully God looks towards the beauty of a human heart.

Remember no Angel was more beautiful than Lucifer …

 

[Magnanimity]

With the strength example, it would be a medical anomaly. We can say that yes, there’s something wrong with this man’s development

Thanks for your thoughts Lea. Regarding the above, the thought experiment would not entail a need for something to wrong with his development (as in missing chromosomal information leading to a physical disorder). It could simply be the case that the male is the offspring whose genes came together in such a way as to have him also be, in your worlds, “unlucky” genetically. This would be rare but not unheard of. But, I have submitted from my own experience that women who are not pleasing to behold are also rare.

The relationship angle to the thought-experiments didn’t seem to sit well with you. They can be left behind. I was only trying to create scenarios where the missing factor for the male was strength and the missing factor for the female was beauty, but this can be done in many ways outside of romantic relationships.

I don’t see it because i think beautiful women are rare, but men who are stronger than me are very common because they are biologically made to be

This is cheating a little in the argument. What I’ve suggested is that beauty is part and parcel of being a human female, just as strength is part and parcel of being a human male. As in, these are the gender’s physically distinguishing features. You state that beautiful women are rare as such. But then you state that, with comparison to you (a female) strong men are everywhere. To keep the analogy proper, you would need to compare males to males and females to females. So, if beautiful women are rare as such, are strong men rare as such? (Whether males are stronger than one particular female-you-isn’t a relevant factor.)

 

[Magnanimity]

Going back to the Thomistic thought that beauty is that which is pleasing when beheld. On that definition, no, beauty among women would not be rare at all. It is almost unheard of that a woman’s face (say) when beheld by a man does not please him, even if the sensation is mild.

It seems to me that you want to suggest a stricter definition for “beautiful,” such that a rare few women would fall within that category. But the same could be done with males and strength. The vast majority of males are all likely on a par with each other with their strength. The Dwayne Johnson’s and Hafþór Júlíus Björnsson‘s of the world are exceedingly rare.

Strength among humans is on a spectrum, and even females are on it (the lower end). And beauty among humans is a spectrum, and even males are on it (again, on the lower end).

It’s almost like beauty is…subjective

Subject and object. Yes, I as a perceiver need to have the ability to see what beauty is there. The more open I am to all types of beauty, the more I can see it everywhere. But, such beauty must also be in the object to be seen. There must be something “out there” for my mind to react to.

Princess Diaries, someone literally sat down on the frumpy female protagonist

I used to love that movie—glad you brought it up. It’s one of those instances where the filmmakers try really hard in the beginning to mask Anne Hathaway’s beauty. But what adult viewer is really fooled? The eyes are enormous, the smile is huge and amazing and the lips are full—all common features of women we find beautiful. The filmmakers put her in glasses, dress her funny and have her hair be messy. But again, with such a huge portion of beautiful features, who is really fooled? When she is finally done up and transformed, she does not move from ugly to beautiful, rather, the already-present beauty is enhanced and put on full display. Right?

Again, it may be location based. I’m in Singapore, and us Asians usually don’t conform to the average beauty standards

Singapore?! Wow, where Crazy Rich Asians was filmed? Whoa. I’m glad you brought up this example too. So, when I was younger, I never found African-Americans or Asians to be pretty. As in, they were the “plain-Janes” of my experience—generally didn’t even notice them. But as I got older and began to really look at women of all races, I was able to see what I couldn’t previously see—beauty everywhere. So now, my eyes do not pass over any race or ethnicity. I behold it all and soak in the beauty everywhere. So much so that it makes me wonder how I couldn’t see it before. Certainly, all these women didn’t move from not-being-beautiful to being-beautiful, in reality. So the change that occurred must have been in the perceiver (me). So there is a subjectivity to it, but I believe the more open and experienced a person is, the more they will see beauty as readily-present in women all around—there are a lot of “not uglies” all around me (to use your phrase ).

 

[Magnanimity]

Ok, you’re right, the posts have gotten to be a little long. I can be long-winded, it’s not a particularly ‘attractive’ personality trait. Sorry! We can taper off now. I’ve appreciated the engagement Lea! You have a sharp mind and have kept me on my toes in this thread. You’ve also helped me to realize that human beauty cannot be so distinctive that males do not in some way embody beauty. It seems that males simply cannot exemplify beauty to the same degree as females.

 

[Sarcelle]

I’m in Singapore, and us Asians usually don’t conform to the average beauty standards.

Yup

I’m of Asian descent too and the thing that’s been drummed into my head since birth is that too be beautiful one must look “white”. So while South Asians like Indians and Pakistani women can be beautiful, no way can East and Southeast Asian women look beautiful.

 

[Lea101]

So, if beautiful women are rare as such, are strong men rare as such?

Saying one is rare while the other is not wouldn’t be a contradiction on my part, because I’m saying that they’re not equivalent.

It is almost unheard of that a woman’s face (say) when beheld by a man does not please him, even if the sensation is mild.

This is a wholesome perspective. I can promise you my face doesn’t please most men. That’s just the harsh reality of it.

The vast majority of males are all likely on a par with each other…

I’m referring to the fact that an average man is stronger than an average woman. Not that men are similar, if that clears things up.

Strength among humans is on a spectrum, and even females are on it (the lower end). And beauty among humans is a spectrum, and even males are on it (again, on the lower end).

I get where you’re coming from. Women are definitely on the lower end when it comes to strength. On the rare cases that women are stronger than the average man, it would be considered a special case (she trained, she has a lot of testosterone).

But as my point is that the beauty spectrum will have a mix of males and females all over it. We know by some studies that attractive people have more daughters due to evolution, so one can say there are more attractive women than men.

But a man being on the higher end of beauty isn’t a special case, unlike the woman that’s on the higher end of strength.

try really hard in the beginning to mask Anne Hathaway’s beauty.

Yes, she is beautiful.

. But as I got older and began to really look at women of all races

Yup, usually representation helps widen the beauty standards so a little more of us can fit in thankfully. CRA only showed East Asians though. The rest of us Singaporeans aren’t that excited about that film I used to pray that I was white as a toddler…yeesh.

I think a theological idea of beauty makes sense, because males and females are created in God’s image, we are inherently beautiful.

When it comes to objective physical beauty, studies seem to point out things like signs of health/fertility. Both males and females tend to have this: the masculine (broad shoulders) and feminine (wider hips).

When it comes to subjective beauty, I think it’s hard to make a broad statement.

So while I think there are more ‘scientifically’ beautiful women than men, I’m hesitant to say this means women are inherently more beautiful. That beauty is more essential to the nature of woman than men. So that’s just the word that we disagree.

I can be long-winded, it’s not a particularly ‘attractive’ personality trait. Sorry! We can taper off now.

i just read this. Guess it’s not mine either lol!

 

[Lea101]

So while South Asians like Indians and Pakistani women can be beautiful, no way can East and Southeast Asian women look beautiful.

This is interesting. My experience is the opposite. I’m Indian and my race is usually treated as the ‘ugliest’ here. Followed by Southeast. As Chinese is the majority and the East Asian culture is strong here (K pop, etc), East Asians have their own beauty standards.

Of course, the number one type of beauty in here would be white. Or rather eurocentric features, perhaps.

The fair skin/colorism is unfortunately universal amongst most races.

 

[Sarcelle]

Indian and Pakistani women have the features that are closest to Europeans while East Asians have smaller eyes with monolids which is not desirable in East Asia especially Korea. There’s a reason why double lid surgery is so popular.

Fair skin is desirable in women which is a reason why skin bleaching beauty products are popular in Asia.

I hear it’s also popular in Africa.

If you also look at telenovelas from Latin America you come away with the impression that Latin America is part of Europe.

So in most parts of the world, beauty standards are Eurocentric.

 

[Lea101]

Yup, although you may be picturing northern south asians. Some ethnic groups are usually mistaken to be Africans due to the differences in their structural features. I think i fall somewhere in between.

If you also look at telenovelas from Latin America you come away with the impression that Latin America is part of Europe.

Yea, most of these actors have a high percentage of European ancestry.

Funny enough, I was watching Jane the Virgin and my brothers thought the actress was Filipino.

beauty standards are Eurocentric.

Unfortunately that’s true

 

[CRV]

Totally correct.

Only a human being would question beauty formed from the outside.

Thankfully God looks towards the beauty of a human heart.

Agree wholeheartedly!

 

[Magnanimity]

This is a wholesome perspective. I can promise you my face doesn’t please most men. That’s just the harsh reality of it.

I bet that a male practicing openness and exposure to all ethnicities just might! But it’s just a guess. I’ve been rather amazed at my own development as I’ve basically forced myself to behold and learn to appreciate the distinctive beauty found in females of all ethnicities I’ve yet encountered. (I do live in a large US metropolitan area, so I’m sure that helps with the extra exposure-therapy )

But as my point is that the beauty spectrum will have a mix of males and females all over it.

True. But I’m unclear as to the significance of the point. As all humans are “strong” from a physics perspective—can exert force on objects, it follows that all females are also somewhere on the strength-spectrum. I suppose you’re still claiming that men can be on the high-end of the beauty spectrum. And that, I don’t grant. Women who possess a very high amount of beauty give all beholders a type of aesthetic experience, a sort of transcendent experience (which is a by-product of beholding anything beautiful in the entire universe.) You can claim that you are sexually attracted to Henry Cavill. But, I would claim that he does not give all beholders an aesthetic experience. But let me address your next comment to see if it provides any clarity.

When it comes to objective physical beauty, studies seem to point out things like signs of health/fertility. Both males and females tend to have this: the masculine (broad shoulders) and feminine (wider hips).

When it comes to subjective beauty, I think it’s hard to make a broad statement.

The studies I’ve seen suggest that men are drawn to the curves of women, wherever those curves appear on her body (up top, down below…) Some men prefer the apple-shaped female physique. Others prefer the pear. And all seem to be drawn to the combo—the hourglass. Moreover, certain facial-features attract men, all of which are, like the body, “curvy.” These would be thick lips, pronounced cheekbones, a soft jawline. Additionally, the average female stores more body fat than the avg male, which makes her entire physique “soft.” Even very thin women (fashion models) exhibit this softness. The softness helps to maintain the flow of all the curves.

What is the point of all this? Female beauty is uniquely contrasted with male “beauty.” She is soft everywhere and curved. It all seems to flow. For males (like all the ones you named) there is more of a squaring—in the jawline, the broad shoulders, the brow-ridge and their low body fat exhibits a “chiseled” effect—very far from soft/flowing and possibly suggestive to females (on an evolutionary, biological level) of his strength.

As Elaine on Seinfeld once said, “the female body is a work of art. The male body is utilitarian. It’s for gettin around. It’s like a Jeep.”

 

[Lea101]

But, I would claim that he does not give all beholders an aesthetic experience.

But don’t you see this is really subjective. You don’t really know how I feel when I look at an attractive man. You don’t really know how women in general feel.

I don’t deny your experiences, I’m just adding on to say that women do enjoy male aesthetics. The fact that women tend to not be as easily aroused as men by sight shouldn’t be conflated with us not being compelled though.

For males (like all the ones you named) there is more of a squaring—in the jawline, the broad shoulders, the brow-ridge and their low body fat exhibits a “chiseled” effect—very far from soft/flowing and possibly suggestive to females (on an evolutionary, biological level) of his strength

Yup, but I don’t see the point here. This just shows that male attractiveness is different, but we are still attracted to that. Male beauty, if you will. Features that display health and strength would be attractive. For women, features that display fertility and health would be attractive. I know women here enjoy the ruggedness of certain males, lol. So, the beauty of men and women are different, basically. Not that one is beautiful and the other is not.

 

[Magnanimity]

But don’t you see this is really subjective. You don’t really know how I feel when I look at an attractive man. You don’t really know how women in general feel…I don’t deny your experiences, I’m just adding on to say that women do enjoy male aesthetics.

I understand what you’re saying. And it’s fair enough. I see that my comments were borderlining on presumption! Sorry about that. For my own part, I believe there is more than ample evidence from the history of art and literature and modern-day industries grounded in the unique embodiment of beauty within women to support my position. But if you cannot agree, that’s ok! I tried to be persuasive, but if I’ve come up short I’m fine with that (and not surprised by my own underwhelming performance ).

IMO, we both have made a good effort in this thread to be genuinely open to what the other has been saying. And that counts for a lot! I appreciate the iron sharpening iron back and forth you’ve given me on this issue. So, thank you Lea!

 

[Sarcelle]

Yes
Beauty lies in health, spiritual, mental and physical health.

Any being who is healthy in all three will be beautiful both inside and out.

 

[LilyM]

steph03:

Humans are all individuals and different. Two persons looking at a Cathedral can have different reactions. One thinks it’s ugly, the other one thinks it is so beautiful.

The world itself is our teacher in these arguments. The human modeling industry is dominated by females. Is there really a question as to why? The answer would seem to very obviously be that humans enjoy beholding females in a way that is unique to their gender (as in, we don’t enjoy beholding males in the same way). If we did, then males and females would likely split the modeling industry more or less evenly (in terms of work and income). And yet, the average salaries of working female and male models is worlds apart. On the male side, the same argument can be made for sport. Why do males dominate athletics (in terms of average salaries and participation)? Human males embody strength/speed in a manner that is unique to their gender.

And no, it would be rare indeed for judgments of “ugly” to be made about, say, Scarlett Johansson, the inside of St Peter’s Basilica, the White House rose gardens or the Ode to Joy climax of Beethoven’s 9th. Folks may not have sufficient background to appreciate the depths of what is being beheld to admire as much of the beauty as you, but none of us have completely different experiences of beauty. As I said, the world is our teacher in these aspects of gender-distinctions. To argue against them is to argue against reality. And that is always a lost cause.

I wouldn’t call St Peter’s ‘beautiful’. Imposing, inspiring, overwhelming and grand absolutely. But it is too much a mishmash of tons of different elements to be truly beautiful.

 

[OneSheep]

Female dominance of the modeling industry would need to be explained, if you don’t believe that beauty is the unique expression of women.

While I absolutely agree…(ahem)… that women are more beautiful, I can explain the discrepancy in the industry, and in media.

In my observation, men are more visually stimulated by the sight of women than the other way around. You just don’t ordinarily see women whistling and gaping. We men can be practically enslaved by compulsion to look at women, right? Women, in turn, somewhat enjoy the attention (to a point), and the idolization gives them some degree of power and status.

In addition, it is somewhat socially acceptable for women to find other women beautiful, but for men not so, it is associated with homosexuality, etc.

As a result of all this, while I agree completely that women are more beautiful (especially my wife!) there are many very understandable reasons why there is more demand for female models and why they are paid more. Women look at other beautiful women and “want to look that good” for a lot of reasons, and buy clothing to look that way. Men, of course, also enjoy looking at beautiful models, but men don’t (as much) see clothing and adornments as a way to draw the attention of women.

And let’s face it, we men can look like total slobs yet still have great status among other men. Our status is based more on other factors, like size of yacht, athletic ability, height, etc.

 

[Magnanimity]

And let’s face it, we men can look like total slobs yet still have great status among other men. Our status is based more on other factors, like size of yacht, athletic ability, height, etc

I’d rather you didn’t so freely admit this sad fact about our gender!

In my observation, men are more visually stimulated by the sight of women than the other way around…socially acceptable for women to find other women beautiful…women are more beautiful…Women look at other beautiful women and “want to look that good”

Yes, yes, all perfectly correct. What I was considering was the why of all these facts. IOW, is there something within the woman herself (a unique exemplification of beauty) that accounts for these phenomena? I think there is. I think that is the most rational explanation to explain all that you point out above (and the existence of all the industries I named). As I said to Lea, there must be something in the object itself that arrests your attention and compels you to behold it. Elaine from Seinfeld had it right

 

[Greenfields]

The foundation of strength and beauty is health.

Without good health, there is no strength or beauty.

Since there was no disease and physical infirmities before the fall, both Adam and Eve are prime examples of humans as God meant them to be.

Yes
God made them equally beautiful as He intended.
An odd loaded question to my mind.