Who was the Ancient One?

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This reading is from Daniel, a dream he had. Who was the Ancient One? God the Father?

Reading 1
Dn 7:9-10, 13-14

As I watched:

Thrones were set up
and the Ancient One took his throne.
His clothing was bright as snow,
and the hair on his head as white as wool;
his throne was flames of fire,
with wheels of burning fire.
A surging stream of fire
flowed out from where he sat;
Thousands upon thousands were ministering to him,
and myriads upon myriads attended him.
The court was convened and the books were opened.

As the visions during the night continued, I saw:

One like a Son of man coming,
on the clouds of heaven;
When he reached the Ancient One
and was presented before him,
The one like a Son of man received dominion, glory, and kingship;
all peoples, nations, and languages serve him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
that shall not be taken away,
his kingship shall not be destroyed.
 
According to the NAB:
[9-10] A vision of the heavenly throne of God (the Ancient One), who sits in judgment (symbolized by fire) over the nations. Some of the details of the vision, depicting the divine majesty and omnipotence, are to be found in Ezekial 1.
[13-14] One like a son of man: in contrast to the worldly kingdoms opposed to God, which appear as beasts, the glorified people of God that will form his kingdom on earth is represented in human form (Daniel 7:18). Just as our Lord applied the figure of the stone hewn from the mountain to himself (Daniel 2:36-45), he also made the title “Son of Man” his most characteristic way of referring to himself, as the One in whom and through whom the salvation of God’s people came to be realized.
Haydock Commentary:
Ver. 9. Ancient. The Son is born of the Father, and the Holy Ghost proceeds from both, yet all three are coeternal. (Worthington) — Hence the Father is sometimes painted in this manner, though he be a pure spirit. His throne resembled that seen by Ezechiel, Chap. i. (Haydock) — He takes cognizance of all, and punishes accordingly. (Calmet)
 
Hi, Christine.

In Bible typology, the old man figure is always God the Father.
 
This reading is from Daniel, a dream he had. Who was the Ancient One? God the Father?

Reading 1
Dn 7:9-10, 13-14

As I watched:

Thrones were set up
and the Ancient One took his throne.
His clothing was bright as snow,
and the hair on his head as white as wool;
his throne was flames of fire,
with wheels of burning fire.
A surging stream of fire
flowed out from where he sat;
Thousands upon thousands were ministering to him,
and myriads upon myriads attended him.
The court was convened and the books were opened.

As the visions during the night continued, I saw:

One like a Son of man coming,
on the clouds of heaven;
When he reached the Ancient One
and was presented before him,
The one like a Son of man received dominion, glory, and kingship;
all peoples, nations, and languages serve him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
that shall not be taken away,
his kingship shall not be destroyed.
Yep, that’s the old man alright.
 
Just to throw something else interesting to the conversation, I confronted this passage before when I was translating the Old Greek Version of Daniel (original Septuagint version) from Codex 967. According to that ancient text it says that the Son of Man is the Ancient of Days The Greek reads υιος ανθρωπου ηρχετο και ως παλιαος ημερων which is literally translated as “son of man coming also as the ancient of days”.

Revelation 1:13-14 I believe reveals that the Ancient of Days is the son of Man because He is seen as the son of Man with the white hair, and the white hair signifies His antiquity and eternal existence.
 
Just to throw something else interesting to the conversation, I confronted this passage before when I was translating the Old Greek Version of Daniel (original Septuagint version) from Codex 967. According to that ancient text it says that the Son of Man is the Ancient of Days The Greek reads υιος ανθρωπου ηρχετο και ως παλιαος ημερων which is literally translated as “son of man coming also as the ancient of days”.

Revelation 1:13-14 I believe reveals that the Ancient of Days is the son of Man because He is seen as the son of Man with the white hair, and the white hair signifies His antiquity and eternal existence.
I thought the son of Man is Jesus, while the Ancient of Days is God the Father. I know they are the same, but differently incarnations, right?:confused:
 
Son of Man means a human being.In daniel it takes on mysterious, prophetic,metaphysical turn. I comes to mean a special someone in the form of a man-messsianic in nature.
 
I thought the son of Man is Jesus, while the Ancient of Days is God the Father. I know they are the same, but differently incarnations, right?:confused:
You are correct, Jesus is God the son and incarnate, and 2nd Person of the Trinity preceeding from the Father. The only thing debatable is whether the Ancient of Days in Daniel 7 is talking about the Father or the Son. That was my point about the Greek version that I mentioned above. By the way, the Greek text that I mentioned is the original Greek Septuagint and not the Theodotian Greek text of Daniel which eventually was received by the majority.

Your understanding that the Ancient of Days is the Father is a good and very sound interpretation, so please don’t let me confuse you, I am only providing another angle to the conversation.
 
As I was watching, thrones were set up,
And the Atik Yomin took His seat.
His clothing as snow was white,
And the hair of His head was like pure wool.
His throne was flames of fire, its wheels burning fire.
A river of fire was flowing and and came forth from before Him;
A thousand thousands were ministering to Him,
And ten thousand times ten thousand were standing before Him.
The judgment sat, and the books were opened.


As far as I know, the title Ancient of Days was applied to both the Father and the Son by the Early Church Fathers. One example of the use this double application is St. Cyril of Jerusalem in two different works:

The Son of Man shall come to the Father, according to the Scripture which was just now read, “on the clouds of heaven,” drawn by a stream of fire, which is to make trial of men. Then if any man’s works are of gold, he shall be made brighter; if any man’s course of life be like stubble, and unsubstantial, it shall be burnt up by the fire. And the Father “shall sit, having His garment white as snow, and the hair of His head like pure wool”. But this is spoken after the manner of men; wherefore? Because He is the King of those who have not been defiled with sins; “for,” He says, “I will make your sins white as snow, and as wool,” which is an emblem of forgiveness of sins, or of sinlessness itself. But the Lord who shall come from heaven on the clouds, is He who ascended on the clouds; for He Himself has said, “And they shall see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

-Catechetical Lectures, Lecture XV

Let the earth bow down, let every tongue sing, chant, and glorify the Child God, forty-day old and pre-eternal, the small Child and Ancient of Days, the suckling Child and Creator of the ages.

-Homily on the Presentation of our Lord in the Temple

Even so, as time passed, the “Ancient of Days=Father” identification became more predominant in the West, while in the East, the identification of the Ancient of Days with Christ is more common. There were even icons which show Christ with the attributes of the Ancient of Days (7th century example here; another one here, which explicitly has the inscription O Paleos Himerōn, “The Ancient of Days” just below IC XC, “Jesus Christ”!); but there is one 15th-century Russian icon which depicts the Father (?) with the attributes. Still, in the Synod of Moscow in 1667 (which finally forbade depictions of the Father in human form), the Russian Church declared that, “although Daniel the prophet says that he beheld the Ancient of Days sitting on a throne, this should not be understood to refer to the Father, but to the Son, who at His second coming will judge every nation at the dreadful Judgment.

I was watching in the visions of the night, and behold!
With the clouds of the heavens like a son of man was one arriving;
And to the Ancient of Days He came, and before Him they brought Him near.
And to Him was given sovereignty, and honor, and kingdom;
And all peoples, tribes, and tongues were serving Him.
His sovereignty is an eternal sovereignty which will not pass away,
And His kingdom is one which will not be destroyed.


Apparently, one explanation I’ve heard as to how the ‘Ancient of Days’ and the ‘One like a Son of Man’ could both be Jesus is that the vision is a symbolic depiction of the Incarnation, the union of the pre-eternal Word and flesh - with the Ancient of Days representing Christ’s divine nature, and the Son of Man representing His human nature. The Ancient of Days ‘accepting’ the Son of Man prefigures the Word of God ‘accepting’ human nature and becoming flesh.
 
I thought the son of Man is Jesus, while the Ancient of Days is God the Father. I know they are the same, but differently incarnations, right?:confused:
“But different incarnations, right?”

Christine, there is only one Incarnation, singular. It is the Incarnation of Jesus Christ, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity. Praise God.
 
“But different incarnations, right?”

Christine, there is only one Incarnation, singular. It is the Incarnation of Jesus Christ, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity. Praise God.
I know, I couldn’t think of the right word, I meant description or personality.
 
As I was watching, thrones were set up,
And the Atik Yomin took His seat.
His clothing as snow was white,
And the hair of His head was like pure wool.
His throne was flames of fire, its wheels burning fire.
A river of fire was flowing and and came forth from before Him;
A thousand thousands were ministering to Him,
And ten thousand times ten thousand were standing before Him.
The judgment sat, and the books were opened.


As far as I know, the title Ancient of Days was applied to both the Father and the Son by the Early Church Fathers. One example of the use this double application is St. Cyril of Jerusalem in two different works:

The Son of Man shall come to the Father, according to the Scripture which was just now read, “on the clouds of heaven,” drawn by a stream of fire, which is to make trial of men. Then if any man’s works are of gold, he shall be made brighter; if any man’s course of life be like stubble, and unsubstantial, it shall be burnt up by the fire. And the Father “shall sit, having His garment white as snow, and the hair of His head like pure wool”. But this is spoken after the manner of men; wherefore? Because He is the King of those who have not been defiled with sins; “for,” He says, “I will make your sins white as snow, and as wool,” which is an emblem of forgiveness of sins, or of sinlessness itself. But the Lord who shall come from heaven on the clouds, is He who ascended on the clouds; for He Himself has said, “And they shall see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

-Catechetical Lectures, Lecture XV

Let the earth bow down, let every tongue sing, chant, and glorify the Child God, forty-day old and pre-eternal, the small Child and Ancient of Days, the suckling Child and Creator of the ages.

-Homily on the Presentation of our Lord in the Temple

Even so, as time passed, the “Ancient of Days=Father” identification became more predominant in the West, while in the East, the identification of the Ancient of Days with Christ is more common. There were even icons which show Christ with the attributes of the Ancient of Days (7th century example here; another one here, which explicitly has the inscription O Paleos Himerōn, “The Ancient of Days” just below IC XC, “Jesus Christ”!); but there is one 15th-century Russian icon which depicts the Father (?) with the attributes. Still, in the Synod of Moscow in 1667 (which finally forbade depictions of the Father in human form), the Russian Church declared that, “although Daniel the prophet says that he beheld the Ancient of Days sitting on a throne, this should not be understood to refer to the Father, but to the Son, who at His second coming will judge every nation at the dreadful Judgment.”

I was watching in the visions of the night, and behold!
With the clouds of the heavens like a son of man was one arriving;
And to the Ancient of Days He came, and before Him they brought Him near.
And to Him was given sovereignty, and honor, and kingdom;
And all peoples, tribes, and tongues were serving Him.
His sovereignty is an eternal sovereignty which will not pass away,
And His kingdom is one which will not be destroyed.


Apparently, one explanation I’ve heard as to how the ‘Ancient of Days’ and the ‘One like a Son of Man’ could both be Jesus is that the vision is a symbolic depiction of the Incarnation, the union of the pre-eternal Word and flesh - with the Ancient of Days representing Christ’s divine nature, and the Son of Man representing His human nature. The Ancient of Days ‘accepting’ the Son of Man prefigures the Word of God ‘accepting’ human nature and becoming flesh.
Thanks Patrick, this is a lot of interesting information.
 
The first Adam echoed as son’s of man. Similar to the pagan insight of a dragon swallowing it’s tail ( the end swallowed up in the beginning). Both mark the end and beginnings of era’s. A dragon swallows it’s tail for those decendents far away and for Adam son’s the tail is a man who’s foot is struck and who’s foot bruises. The beginning doesn’t swallow the end.
 
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