Who was the first Catholic?

[Volodymyr]

“Filioque” first appeared in the East, actually.

The first controversy involving such word did occur in the “East”. It occured when in 8th century Palestinian Latin monks relying on Western tradition and speaking Latin inserted such word into Creed of Liturgy. Monks of St. Sabas monastery of Palestine, who were Greek speaking, were protesting. This occured at time that Charlemagne was working a “deal” with caliph to be powerful fellow in Holy Land. He told monks of Olivet filioque was fine.

Therefore, it is slightly misleading to say that “filioque” - a Latin word - “appeared in the East”. It was introduced there by Latin monks and protested immediately.

 

[anthony022071]

Could we agree to use the term Christian to mean one who believes in Jesus and Catholic to mean a member of the church He built on the rock of Peter?

Yes,that’s true.
But from the beginning,there were people who believed (or claimed to believe) in Jesus,but in ways which were not of the apostolic Church,and who preached very different doctrines,such as the Gnostics did.
John calls them anti-christs.

Until the time of the schism between Constantinople and Rome,there was no group of believers apart from the Catholic Church that could be described as real Christians.
Essential doctrines which Catholics hold had not been settled
through councils approved by the pope,and papal declarations until that time.
There were always Gnostics,Arians,Nestorians,
Donatists,Pelagians,Monophysites and other kinds of heretics causing much confusion and discord in the Church.

That is how the belief in “no salvation outside of the Catholic Church came about”. Prior to the Othodox Church,the only groups of believers were heretics who endangered the true Church.

 

[anthony022071]

Christians were always “universal”.

That’s not true. An individual’s faith in Jesus has little to do with being in communion with the whole Church.

Universal Christians existed “before” the formal creation of The Chruch.

They did not. There were a small number of believers,but they were not part of a universal Church. A Church can

The Church is named “Catholic” because of the “nature” of Christianity.

There’s no such thing as a “Christian” heretic.

Photios,Gregory Palamas,and Martin Luther were Christians,and they were also heretics.

Once you’re a heretic, you lose your Christianity.

That was usually the case before the Orthodox Church came into existence,but it is not necessarily true.
It depends on the particular beliefs of the heretic. Lutherans believe in heretical doctrines,but they are still Christians.

 

[2ndGen]

=anthony022071;3260130]

Christians were always “universal”.

 

[anthony022071]

Ok then, if they weren’t “universal” Christians (meaning that they didn’t belong to specific sect of Christianity, but belonged to Christianity), what “type” of Christians were they?

The term “Christian” did not even come about until after the church in Antioch was established.

What “church” did they belong to then?

I don’t know if we could rightfully call them a “Church” until Pentecost. As the pope said,the Church was catholic and evangelical from its birth – and he meant Pentecost.
Pentecost was the beginning of the Church.
That ought to settle the question for us.

Nope. Once they were deemed heretics by The Church, they were excommunicated and thus, were not Christians anymore.

Photios is said to have died in communion,though he had heretical ideas. Gregory Palamas never was in communion with the Catholic Church to begin with. Pope Benedict would never deny that Luther was a Christian. Excommunication does not automatically make someone cease to be a Christian. Being a Christian has to do with one’s belief. Being a Catholic has to do with being in communion with the Church,which has the true apostolic faith.

Lutherans do “not” believe in what Luther taught.

Some do. Whether they do or not do,they identify themselves with the heretical church that Luther founded.

Matter of fact, most Protestants (especially here) try to dissassociate themselves with Luther.

If they believe in sola scriptura or salvation by faith alone,then they aren’t really trying.

Once The Church excommunicates you, that’s it.

No,it doesn’t necessarily end there.
The Church can also forgive those who repent and accept them back into communion.

 

[slyboots]

Mary. No doubt about it.

 

[holdencaulfield]

Oh, it made me think, all right. I’m going to church with my Bible Study friend tonight at his Bible Church. Maybe get some fresh perspective on this Mary worship thing.

No one worships St. Mary. Only a heretic and blasphemer would worship St. Mary. I think we all can agree on that.

 

[holdencaulfield]

Mary. No doubt about it.

Yep, that’s what most people are saying. On the other hand you have the heretics, who don’t believe this. What can you do?