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holdencaulfield
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Lol, but honestly look at the passages I quoted. They do lend themselves to St. Mary. Do they not?
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2ndGen
Guest
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holdencaulfield
Guest
Thank You.
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anthony022071
Guest
A Church doesn’t make a person Christian,but being in communion with the Church is what makes a person Catholic.
Catholic means “universal” or “whole”. It is not a person’s individual faith which makes him catholic,but being in communion with the whole,or catholity.
All Christians were not always universal Christians;there were always Christian heretics who were outside of the Catholic Church. And Mary’s personal belief says nothing about the personal belief of others.
Cyril of Jerusalem:
“[The Church] is called catholic, then, because it extends over the whole world, from end to end of the earth, and because it teaches universally and infallibly each and every doctrine which must come to the knowledge of men, concerning things visible and invisible, heavenly and earthly, and because it brings every race of men into subjection to godliness, governors and governed, learned and unlearned, and because it universally treats and heals every class of sins, those committed with the soul and those with the body, and it possesses within itself every conceivable form of virtue, in deeds and in words and in the spiritual gifts of every description” (Catechetical Lectures 18:23 [A.D. 350]).
“And if you ever are visiting in cities, do not inquire simply where the house of the Lord is—for the others, sects of the impious, attempt to call their dens ‘houses of the Lord’—nor ask merely where the Church is, but where is the Catholic Church. For this is the name peculiar to this holy Church, the mother of us all, which is the spouse of our Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God” (ibid., 18:26).
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anthony022071
Guest
How could there be a Church that wasn’t institutional?
How could there be an individual who was catholic prior to the birth of the Catholic Church? Individuals aren’t catholic by themselves.
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Claire_from_DE
Guest
Could we agree to use the term Christian to mean one who believes in Jesus and Catholic to mean a member of the church He built on the rock of Peter?
Then, since the church is also the ‘body of Christ’ and Mary was His mother, she is the mother of the church. I like to think of her among those other women (the ones who had stood at the foot of the cross) mothering the apostles after Jesus ascended into heaven. A book by Alex Jones, a black minister who joined the Church with over 40 members of his congregation, speaks highly of the ‘mothers of the church’ in his church and it gave me a new perspective on the need for the witness, good example, and mothering the older women can give. Totally off topic, sorry.
I think the question was asked to make us think and it seems to have done that.
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Uncle_Norbert
Guest
Oh, it made me think, all right. I’m going to church with my Bible Study friend tonight at his Bible Church. Maybe get some fresh perspective on this Mary worship thing.
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2ndGen
Guest
Also, Jesus breathed The Holy Spirit upon The Apostels before The Day of Pentacost, so having The Holy Spirit alone didn’t make The Apostles The Church.
If that was the case, then Jesus started The Church when He was baptized by John and The Holy Spirit desceded upon Him.
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2ndGen
Guest
Plus, to know “of” and to “know” are different things.
Mary was the first to know Christ personally (not just believe in the Prophecy of Him).
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2ndGen
Guest
We were told that The Holy Spirit “landed” upon Mary first.
Then upon Jesus.
Then Jesus breathed upon The Apostles.
Then came the day of Pentecost.
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onenow1
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2ndGen
Guest
Then your definition of worship is just as skewed as theirs is which makes you wrong too.I don’t disagree that Mary may have been the first Christian, followed closely by Elizabeth.
But the idea that Mary was the first Catholic is just beyond me.
It seems on this forum, for some, that any inference that Mary wasn’t or isn’t something is taken as blasphemy.
Reading some of the above posts, I can see why our Prostestant brothers think that Catholics WORSHIP Mary.
The fact is, you attempt to seperate Catholicism from Christianity and it cannot be done. All Christians were called to be universal Christians by Jesus Himself and even Paul stated this when he said that there be no divisions among us.
Christ had alwasys intended for His Church to be “universal” (unless you can find where He taught that only certain races or ethnic groups of men could belong to certain groups of Christians).
He even told The Apostles to make disciples catholically when He said “make disciples of all nations”. “All” is literally synonamous for the word “universal”.
When asked what kind of Christian we are, we are not supposed to say that we are “Lutherans” or “Calvinists” or “Episcopalians” or “Pentecostals” or “Baptists”. We are not to be divided by men’s doctrines or by events or by geographical locations. We are supposed to be “universal” Christians (“all” of us).
Mary was the first universal Christian. Why? Because she met all the criteria of being a Christian. Her baptism by The Holy Spirit and her favor with God far outdid any baptism that any man could perform on her. She is the model of Christianity that no mere human could meet, but could aspire to.
So, if you can’t accept it, then you need to question “why” you can’t. Trust me, The Protestants that disagree with Christianity on who and what Mary was for 2,000 years are all wrong.
You cannot call yourself a Catholic Christian while holding non-Catholic views. That’s why it’s called your faith and if your faith doesn’t align with Christianity (and I’m not talking about with the minority of Christians that don’t pass the 10% mark), then you won’t be happy being a universal Christian.
It is what it is. If you dont’ believe it, that’s alright. If you cannot accept it, that’s ok. But to discredit it without being able to prove your reasons to discredit it is just you being a Doubting Thomas.
Even when I was an agnostic/border atheist/anti-Catholic/non-denominational Christian, I NEVER denied Mary her honor. Nowhere in scripture nor in history was I ever presented by one bad word about her.
In fact, it was the anti-Catholics and the anti-Marians that sped my journey home back to Catholicism. I couldn’t understand how any Christian could speak so ill of Mary who not only brougth Jesus to the world, but who nursed Him, who fed Him, who kept him clean and safe and warm and protected from those that would murder other children just to kill Him.
She never did anything (objectively speaking) to incur so much wrath and disdain. I’ve heard you argument so many times by anti-Catholics, that our love for her is a turn off to them.
Well, when did loving Mary as much as Jesus did (at least trying to because I can imagine that perfect love like Jesus’ could never be attained by us) become wrong for a Christian?
When anti-Catholicism began to grow (a work of Satan). Disdain of Mary has NOTHING to do with our love for Mary. It has to do with a person’s pride and ego and with their attacking what we love (they also attack The Holy Eucharist, our leaders, etc…).
The fact is, people who don’t love her like we and The Mulslims do aren’t wrong to “not” love her, but to critisize us for loving her, that is an “unChristian” trait.
When was perfect love wrong for God? Mary hasn’t done anything to “not” be venerated and she’s done everything God told her to do FOR US!
She deserves for us to honor her…she is literally our mother (Rev 12:17) and we are commanded by Almighty God to honor our mother.
God bless her, God keep her, God love her!
Hail Mary, full of grace, blessed art thou and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus. Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and in the hour of our death, Amen.
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2ndGen
Guest
Mary the Mother of God
Throughout his life Luther maintained without change the historic Christian affirmation that Mary was the Mother of God:
"She is rightly called not only the mother of the man, but also the Mother of God … It is certain that Mary is the Mother of the real and true God."1
Perpetual Virginity
Again throughout his life Luther held that Mary’s perpetual virginity was an article of faith for all Christians - and interpreted Galatians 4:4 to mean that Christ was “born of a woman” alone.
"It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a Virgin."2
The Immaculate Conception
Yet again the Immaculate Conception was a doctrine Luther defended to his death (as confirmed by Lutheran scholars like Arthur Piepkorn). Like Augustine, Luther saw an unbreakable link between Mary’s divine maternity, perpetual virginity and Immaculate Conception. Although his formulation of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was not clear-cut, he held that her soul was devoid of sin from the beginning:
"But the other conception, namely the infusion of the soul, it is piously and suitably believed, was without any sin, so that while the soul was being infused, she would at the same time be cleansed from original sin and adorned with the gifts of God to receive the holy soul thus infused. And thus, in the very moment in which she began to live, she was without all sin…"3
Assumption
Although he did not make it an article of faith, Luther said of the doctrine of the Assumption:
"There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. How it happened we do not know."4
Honor to Mary
Despite his unremitting criticism of the traditional doctrines of Marian mediation and intercession, to the end Luther continued to proclaim that Mary should be honored. He made it a point to preach on her feast days.
"The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart."5
“Is Christ only to be adored? Or is the holy Mother of God rather not to be honoured? This is the woman who crushed the Serpent’s head. Hear us. For your Son denies you nothing.”
"Elizabeth called Mary Mother of the Lord, because the unity of the person in the two natures of Christ was such that she could have said that the mortal man engendered in the womb of Mary was at the same time the eternal God."7
"Helvidius has shown himself too ignorant, in saying that Mary had several sons, because mention is made in some passages of the brothers of Christ."8 Calvin translated “brothers” in this context to mean cousins or relatives.
"It cannot be denied that God in choosing and destining Mary to be the Mother of his Son, granted her the highest honor."9
"To this day we cannot enjoy the blessing brought to us in Christ without thinking at the same time of that which God gave as adornment and honour to Mary, in willing her to be the mother of his only-begotten Son."10
"It was given to her what belongs to no creature, that in the flesh she should bring forth the Son of God."11
"I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin."12 Zwingli used Exodus 4:22 to defend the doctrine of Mary’s perpetual virginity.
"I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary."13
"Christ … was born of a most undefiled Virgin."14
"It was fitting that such a holy Son should have a holy Mother."15
"The more the honor and love of Christ increases among men, so much the esteem and honor given to Mary should grow."16
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Oh wait, did you mean “Catholic” tradition?
I’m sorry, but those statements above were made by:
- Martin Luther
- John Calvin
- Ulrich Zwingi
Back then?
Or today…after their movement disintegrated into 33,000 different groups (some of whom lovvvvvve Mary dearly)?
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2ndGen
Guest
Christians were always “universal”.
Universal Christians existed “before” the formal creation of The Chruch.
The Church is named “Catholic” because of the “nature” of Christianity.
There’s no such thing as a “Christian” heretic.
Once you’re a heretic, you lose your Christianity.
:knight2:
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2ndGen
Guest
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2ndGen
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Why don’t you go to “The” Bible Church?
The Church that actually gave the world The Bible?
Since when was the author wrong to tell you what the book meant?
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chevalier
Guest
But we also see the Last Supper as the moment when Our Lord ordained the Apostles to consecrate the Eucharist.
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2ndGen
Guest
How’s about we just take the definition of the word “catholic” and apply it as it is defined?
A “catholic” Christian is a “universal” Christian
A “catholic” church is a “universal” church.
If a Christian is not a “universal” Christian (meaning, not belonging to any subdivision of Christianity), then they are Protestants.
If we accept this definition as a child would, then we’d have to recognize that Christians were never Baptists, or Lutherans, or Calvinists “until” after the 16th century. They were always universal Christians before that…they were always “Catholics”. Any Church that has rightful claims to Apostolic Succession is a catholic Church.
Mary wasn’t a Protestant (in fact, she was the opposite of a protesting Believer because she never protested whatever God told her to do). She wasn’t a Lutheran or Pentecostal or an Evangelical. She was a “universal” Christian belonging to no man made sect, but to Christianity alone.
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chevalier
Guest
“Filioque” first appeared in the East, actually.
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2ndGen
Guest
I’d say that logic dictates that The Church was born at The Annunciation:
youtube.com/watch?v=4J5Nka3X7pQ
There was a visitation from an Angel, who was the minister of God’s work.
The Holy Spirit was present.
Mary heard The Word of God.
Mary presented herself for the sacrifice to God.
Mary made a proclamation of faith.
Scripture was stated.
God accepted the sacrifice she made in giving up her life to Him which made it perfect worship.
Mary was given “The Bread of Life” Who was Jesus and she accepted the human Eucharist into her body.
Sounds like The First Mass to me!
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