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Pwrlftr
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Melito of Sardis?
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Rbt_Southwell
Guest
And that would be in *WHAT *nonexistant work of his???
Robert
Robert
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Isa_Almisry
Guest
Origin was the first to make a seperatoin in his textual study of the OT, but he specifically stated that the Church’s OT was the Septuagint and he dare not change the boundary set by the Fathers. He saw the Hebrew and LXX texts as complimentary ways of revelation.
Jerome was the first to use Hebrew primacy, and he was castigated by Augustine for abandoning the Tradition of the Apostles for the traditions of the pharisees, sadduccees and scribes.
Jerome was the first to use Hebrew primacy, and he was castigated by Augustine for abandoning the Tradition of the Apostles for the traditions of the pharisees, sadduccees and scribes.
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Pwrlftr
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Melito’s work as well as others are still available to us (ie. they aren’t nonexistant) and I will post Melito’s later today.
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Pwrlftr
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This is Melito’s “nonexistant” work. Why would you assume his work is nonexistant?
BTW, the Wisdom in the list is not generally believed to be the apocryphal Wisdom but Proverbs.
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Pwrlftr
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From my above post it sure sounds like Melito used Hebrew primacy too, doesn’t it?
BTW, you are right, Augustine did hold the deutero’s/apocrypha to be canonical.
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Alexius
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Proverbs is then listed twice…?
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O.S.Luke
Guest
I read Melito’s writings and sermons in seminary. And I’m a Protestant. :ehh:
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Pwrlftr
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Good catch.Proverbs is then listed twice…?
FF Bruce says:
FF Bruce:
Maybe the phrase “…the Proverbs of Solomon, Wisdom also…” should read “…the Proverbs of Solomon, called Wisdom also…”.
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Pwrlftr
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I found another translation of the text from Eusebius…Proverbs is then listed twice…?
“…two of Chronicles, the Psalms of David, Solomon’s Proverbs or Wisdom…” which indicates that Melito did in fact equate Proverbs and Wisdom.
I know Bruce, Beckwith, and MacDonald all credit Melito as accepting Proverbs but rejecting Wisdom (the deutero) but will try to look into this further.
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b_justb
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I think we should be very careful about assigning motive. You’re asking about a rejection of canonicity of various books by a person or persons. Not listing them or even disputing their authenticity does not equate to rejecting them.
Your quote is not from St. Melito it is from Eusebius who is quoting St. Melito in part. As you observed in your accreditation of the source; it is not a primary source, it is a secondary source. Your further quotes by Eusebius and then trying to construct St. Melito’s ideas from them is poor form. If you have a primary source from St. Melito saying that he rejects the authenticity of the deuterocanon, please site it.
If you want to find a good solid argument from Catholic Sources that disputes the deuterocanon look at the writings of St. Jerome. St. Jerome gave arguments against incorporating the deuterocanon into Scripture and he is a Doctor of the Church.
However, even when we look at those writings and arguments, once the Church makes a decision on the canon he does not refute the authority of the Church to do so. Nor does he dispute the findings further.
That is what is critical to the argument, IMO.
Your quote is not from St. Melito it is from Eusebius who is quoting St. Melito in part. As you observed in your accreditation of the source; it is not a primary source, it is a secondary source. Your further quotes by Eusebius and then trying to construct St. Melito’s ideas from them is poor form. If you have a primary source from St. Melito saying that he rejects the authenticity of the deuterocanon, please site it.
If you want to find a good solid argument from Catholic Sources that disputes the deuterocanon look at the writings of St. Jerome. St. Jerome gave arguments against incorporating the deuterocanon into Scripture and he is a Doctor of the Church.
However, even when we look at those writings and arguments, once the Church makes a decision on the canon he does not refute the authority of the Church to do so. Nor does he dispute the findings further.
That is what is critical to the argument, IMO.
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Pwrlftr
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I don’t know if I have a primary source or not, I’ll have to see what I can dig up. However, I have never heard anyone deny that Melito rejected the deuterocanonical books. To the best of my knowledge Gary Michuta didn’t dispute that Melito of Sardis rejected the deuteros in his debate with James White nor do I recall any “professional” Catholic apologist (Pacwa, Sungenis, Madrid, etc.) deny this so I really don’t think I am taking anything out of context. Who knows, maybe I am wrong and it was someone other than Melito who was the earliest father to reject the books.
Maybe it is poor form to discuss the various ways the quote I provided could be constructed but Beckwith, Bruce, and MacDonald all agree that Melito rejected the deutero’s and I don’t see you offering any evidence to the contrary. Is that poor form on your part?
I just asked a question, there was no argument.
That’s fine but once again I just asked who was the earliest father to reject the deutero’s. Who do you think it was?
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inthecloud
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By the way, why rejecting Wisdom would help Christianity? Is one of the most Christian books of the Septuagint OT. Specially Wisdom 2, 11 to 25. And other parts. Many ECFs commented that book and compared doctrines with Paul and John.
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b_justb
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I don’t think any Early Church Father rejected any books of Sacred Scripture.
Marcion attempted to teach the rejection of many of the Sacred Books and was throughly denounced as a heretic for not retracting his teachings. I do not consider Marcion an Early Church Father.
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Ilroy
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Maybe if you want to add to what was ACTUALLY written…
I wonder, what about in Mt. 12…should we change the wording to “Proverbs of Solomon” also?
42 The queen of the south shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the Wisdom of Solomon, and behold a greater than Solomon here.
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Harpazo
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What the OP refuses to accept is the fact that it doesn’t matter if so-and-so rejected the Old Testament as Catholics see it. Me thinks he’s trying to break our faith…
What matters to Catholics is what the whole of the Magisterium ordained. Last time I checked on ECF doesn’t make up the whole of the Magisterium…
Pace e Bene
Andrew
What matters to Catholics is what the whole of the Magisterium ordained. Last time I checked on ECF doesn’t make up the whole of the Magisterium…Pace e Bene
Andrew
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Rbt_Southwell
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You are quoting a secondary source.
And besides, a
of works is considered canonical by a Protestant??!!
Stop the presses! “Separated Brethren Coming Home” “Millions Realize Jamnia Canon Post-Early Church Fathers and Traditional Christian Usage”
Wow, I can hardly wait for the headlines!
Again, give us St Melito’s text which states that he “rejects the deutero’s.”
Let’s see, if I forget my wife’s birthday do I then “reject” the event?
Hhmmmm, you might be on to something there, pwrlftr, but it definitely is not what you intended.
Robert
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JMBNH
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Also of note is that Jeremiah there includes Lamentations which probably means it includes Baruch as well, plus Daniel and Esther are likely the full version, plus Wisdom is included, so he only rejected 5 books, and some early NT canons excluded that many from there
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Pwrlftr
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Nope, not interested in “breaking” your faith. Just asked a question.What the OP refuses to accept is the fact that it doesn’t matter if so-and-so rejected the Old Testament as Catholics see it. Me thinks he’s trying to break our faith…
Pace e Bene
Andrew
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Pwrlftr
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I just asked a question. It’s interesting to see the reactions of some of you. Maybe some of you buy to much into Catholic pop-apologetics.
Do you think Melito rejected the deutero’s?
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