Who was the first ECF to reject the deutero's?

[Pwrlftr]

Here is your goofy claim that the canon was not finalized nor complete, but “one was quite free in matters regarding” it.

So sophomoric, so off point, so [excuse the pun] LIGHTweight.

Robert

Thanks for your post Robert.

I notice that you insult and rant but offer no dialogue. Anyway, if you had any knowledge of church history you would realize that Trent was the first dogmatic declaration of the canon.

Carthage and Hippo did put forth a canon but it wasn’t binding since these two councils were not ecumenical…and that’s a fact.

 

[jmcrae]

The piece from the Catholic Encyclopedia says, rather unambiguously that “…Melito’s Canon consists exclusively of the protocanonicals minus Esther”.

Which means that he was using a different canon than either you or I use, since we both include Esther in our canons.

So, unless your point is that people had different ideas of the canon of the Old Testament prior to the Council of Trent (we already knew that), what do you gain by showing Melito’s canon of the Old Testament? Since nobody today uses it - it was unique to himself, and not accepted by the Universal Church, either then or now.

 

[jmcrae]

Thanks for your post Robert.

I notice that you insult and rant but offer no dialogue. Anyway, if you had any knowledge of church history you would realize that Trent was the first dogmatic declaration of the canon.

Yes, it was, but they went with the same one that the Church Universal had been using since Day 1 - they made no changes.

Carthage and Hippo did put forth a canon but it wasn’t binding since these two councils were not ecumenical…and that’s a fact.

It is.

It’s also a fact that the 27-book New Testament canon was promulgated universally by a Catholic Pope (Pope Innocent I), and that when you read your New Testament, you are implicitly accepting the word of a Catholic Pope that what you are reading is the inspired Word of God.

 

[Pwrlftr]

Which means that he was using a different canon than either you or I use, since we both include Esther in our canons.

So, unless your point is that people had different ideas of the canon of the Old Testament prior to the Council of Trent (we already knew that), what do you gain by showing Melito’s canon of the Old Testament? Since nobody today uses it - it was unique to himself, and not accepted by the Universal Church, either then or now.

I simply asked who was the first ECF to reject the deutero’s. That’s it. This question seem to be really troublesome to some of you.

I didn’t ask “who was the first ECF to use the Palestinian canon”.

I just asked a simple question.

 

[Pwrlftr]

It’s also a fact that the 27-book New Testament canon was promulgated universally by a Catholic Pope (Pope Innocent I), and that when you read your New Testament, you are implicitly accepting the word of a Catholic Pope that what you are reading is the inspired Word of God.

The biggest difference between you and I on this issue is that I don’t think any pope or council is infallible but yes, I accept the testimony of the early church on the canon of the NT.

 

[Pwrlftr]

I…I do know of one group that rejected them though…the Jewish council of Jamnia (sp?) rejected them because they were accepted by this pesky new sect called Christians who follow that blasphemer Christ.

From everything I have read, there is no evidence that the council at Jamnia, if it can be called a council, never discussed the deutero’s. I am basing this off of FF Bruce, Beckwith, and MacDonald.

Do you have evidence to the contrary?

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

Robert,

You apparently don’t know your faith, pity.

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

You know something, the catholic apologists who participate in debates such as Gary Michuta don’t make this strong a claim.

Also, until Trent, one was quite free in matters regarding the canon

Powerlifter:

Here is your posting on Trent.

Now, start showing us how these words are the same as the ones in my prior post (as per your allegation).

Robert

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

It was not possible for him to “reject” anything, since it had not even been set, yet. The Church of the time was using the 46-book canon of the Old Testament in the Liturgy.

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

Your quote is not from St. Melito it is from Eusebius who is quoting St. Melito in part. As you observed in your accreditation of the source; it is not a primary source, it is a secondary source. Your further quotes by Eusebius and then trying to construct St. Melito’s ideas from them is poor form. ** If you have a primary source from St. Melito saying that he rejects the authenticity of the deuterocanon, please site it**

 

[Pwrlftr]

Powerlifter:

Here is your posting on Trent.

Now, start showing us how these words are the same as the ones in my prior post (as per your allegation).

Robert

You have absoultely confused me.

I believe Trent was the first dogmatic declaration of the canon for your church. I believe before Trent one had quite a bit of freedom with regards to the canon since Hippo and Carthage were only provinical councils.

If you are still confused let me know and I’ll try to explain better.

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

Please provide just one. I haven’t seen you post ANY source that says St. Melito REJECTED the deuterocanon. You say it says that but the source does not say what you say it says. ** So yes, please provide just one source from St. Melito, or any other ECF, that says specifically “I reject the Books of bla bla because bla bla.” That’d be great to see if you can indeed find it.**
.

And yet another request.

 

[Pwrlftr]

Robert,

Some ECF’s accepted the deutero’s, some rejected them.

I believe Melito rejected the deutero’s. However, maybe I am wrong and someone else was the first ECF to reject the deutero’s.

Apparently, you and another post have issues with the word “reject”.

From Merriam Webster:
Main Entry: 1re·ject
Pronunciation: \ri-ˈjekt\
Function: transitive verb
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin rejectus, past participle of reicere, from re- + jacere to throw — more at jet
Date: 15th century
1 a: to refuse to accept, consider, submit to, take for some purpose, or use b: to refuse to hear, receive, or admit : rebuff repel c: to refuse as lover or spouse
2obsolete : to cast off
3: throw back repulse
4: to spew out
5: to subject to immunological rejection

If Melito doesn’t accept the deutero’s as canonical, the fact that there was no council doesn’t change the fact that Melito “refused to accept” the deutero’s as canonical. You guys are being silly now.

 

[Pwrlftr]

And yet another request.

Robert,

I don’t have a “primary” source for Melito but does that mean anything?

Do scholars doubt the work or source of my first quote? If they do, who are “they” and why do they doubt it?

 

[Pwrlftr]

Pwrlftr:

The same source will tell you in no uncertain language that the terms “protocanonical” and “deuterocanonical” are modern terms.

They were NOT used in the early Church. So they most certainly were NOT used by St Melito!

So according to you, does the Cathlic Encyclopedia state that Melito accepted the deutero’s or does it say that he rejected them?

Which is it?

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

Robert,

You apparently don’t know your faith, pity.

If as anyone with some knowledge of church history would know, Trent was the first dogmatic council to declare/define the canon, how could either Carthage or Hippo have dogmatically declared the canon before Trent…you know, since Trent was the first one?

Powerlifter;

Here is another example of how much I do NOT know my Faith.

The Bible you read was approved by the Synod of Rome (yes, you know, that place of the you-know-who) by Pope St Damasus I. This was in 382 AD.

By papal declaration (some Sees were still reading/preaching from various ‘books’) of Pope St Innocent I the canon was made dogmatic. This occurred in 405 AD.

A little before Trent, dontcha think?

Since you enjoy New Advent so much, go ahead and finish the whole article. You might also enjoy the Oxford Companion to the Bible (an ecumenical work). The entries about the Canon and the Bible (written by non-Catholics) are enlightening.

And of course, contrary to what you are fishing for in these waters.

Robert

 

[Pwrlftr]

Powerlifter;

Here is another example of how much I do NOT know my Faith.

The Bible you read was approved by the Synod of Rome (yes, you know, that place of the you-know-who) by Pope St Damasus I. This was in 382 AD.

By papal declaration (some Sees were still reading/preaching from various ‘books’) of Pope St Innocent I the canon was made dogmatic. This occurred in 405 AD.

A little before Trent, dontcha think?

Since you enjoy New Advent so much, go ahead and finish the whole article. You might also enjoy the Oxford Companion to the Bible (an ecumenical work). The entries about the Canon and the Bible (written by non-Catholics) are enlightening.

And of course, contrary to what you are fishing for in these waters.

Robert

Robert,

You know as well as I do the pope simply approving something doesn’t make it dogma. Do you really want to press this issue?

Do you really want to state that everything the pope approves is dogma?

 

[sterryfamily]

To put forth ones own idea of something is not equal to rejecting some other idea. Your terminology is innacurate.

Besides, any can have any idea they want about Church issues until the magisterium defines it. Are you suggesting Melito would not have accepted the Church’s canon?

I am free today, for instance, to believe that the “bretheren of the Lord” referred to in the Bible are step brothers from a previous marriage of St Joseph’s, or I am free to believe they were extended male members of the family - perhaps cousins. But, I also know (as would have St Melito as to the issue of the canon - or any other) that when the Church defines the matter, she is guided by the Holy Spirit as promised by Christ and the Holy Spirit cannot err, so that would settle the matter. But to say, in choosing one over the other before the Church defines it, that I have rejected the other, would simply demonstrate a lack of understanding of the English language.

 

[sterryfamily]

So according to you, does the Cathlic Encyclopedia state that Melito accepted the deutero’s or does it say that he rejected them?

Which is it?

IT SAYS NEITHER.

It says he had his own idea for the canon.

 

[Pwrlftr]

IT SAYS NEITHER.

It says he had his own canon.

Did his canon include the deutero’s?