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MacDaddy
Guest
Murder is taking a life with the intent to kill without valid reason, like self defense. You cannot kill that which is not living.
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
There’s a lot of spin on that Mac, I’m sure you realize that. What about the oral tradition? Scriptures are very clear about things Christ did and said that are not written about. Scriptures are equally clear on holding to traditions learned whether by word or epistle.“Man will not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God” Jesus was SS - tell me where the mouth of God resides? The church is the pillar and support of what? The truth, God’s word is the truth. It does say it explicitly, just not in your vernacular.
Verse please.
The Trinity is very implicit all over Scripture with the best and clearest example of “in the Name (singular) of the 1)Father and of the 2)Son and of the 3)Holy Ghost”
SS is the only way, why? Where else has God spoken, which is now written.
**"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; **Jesus is SS and only quoted from the written word because He is the Word, not a church. The individual body is to protect that Word and exalt the Word to the glory of God.
Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, - this is how all Christians are able to know the truth. Mono e’ mono (One on one)
14 Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, 15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness, 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Paul was an SS man:
Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past, 26 but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith; 27 to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, be the glory forever. Amen.
Summary: Jesus, Peter and Paul were all SS men. Moses was an SS man, David was an SS man
Doesn’t depend on if it was written at the time it was spoken orally, because whether orally or written, it is all comes from the mouth of God and we are blessed to have it in written form. No one can add to Gods mouth from God’s view point.
There is no rational reason to assume that any oral teaching is not contained in the written word, for the oral teachings as Peter indicated above were one in the same, which makes since because anytime oral teaching is spoken of in the Scripture; it is indictive that it already existed; therefore could not be created nor invented, which is why god probably warned about adding to or subtracting fro His word. Sounds reasonable to me, but I am a SS man because I don’t see any way possible to prove anything outside of His word that exists and I have been searching and have thus far not found anything.
Most of the times when you read the term ‘scriptures’ in the New Testament, it’s speaking of the Old Testament. The problem is most Protestants see ‘scriptures’ everytime they read ‘word of God’.
The men of the Church have the power to bind and loose on earth and the men of the Church have the authority to forgive and retain sins, There’s authority assigned to the men of the Church.
Scriptures explain an authoritative Church too us.
**Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word: and the Word was with God: and the Word was God.
Mat 28:18 And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth.
Mat 28:19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations: baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. And behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.
Joh 20:23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them: and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.
1Co 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus, the same night in which he was betrayed, took bread,
1Co 11:24 And giving thanks, broke and said: Take ye and eat: This is my body, which shall be delivered for you. This do for the commemoration of me.
Luk 10:16 He that heareth you heareth me: and he that despiseth you despiseth me: and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.
Mat 18:18 Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven.
Mat 18:17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.
Heb 13:17 Obey your prelates and be subject to them. For they watch as being to render an account of your souls: that they may do this with joy and not with grief. For this is not expedient for you.
Heb 13:24 Salute all your prelates and all the saints. The brethren from Italy salute you.
1Ti 5:17 Let the priests that rule well be esteemed worthy of double honour: especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.**
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
Bible alone, or Bible plus tradition?
**1Co 11:2 Now I praise you, brethren, that in all things you are mindful of me and keep my ordinances as I have delivered them to you.
2Th 2:15 (2:14) Therefore, brethren, stand fast: and hold the traditions, which you have learned, whether by word or by our epistle.
2Th 3:6 And we charge you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw yourselves from every brother walking disorderly and not according to the tradition which they have received of us.
Joh 21:25 But there are also many other things which Jesus did which, if they were written every one, the world itself. I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written.
Mar 13:31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my word shall not pass away.
2Ti 1:13 Hold the form of sound words which thou hast heard of me: in faith and in the love which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 2:2 And the things which thou hast heard of me by many witnesses, the same commend to faithful men who shall be fit to teach others also.
2Pe 1:20 Understanding this first: That no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation.
2Pe 3:15 And account the longsuffering of our Lord, salvation: as also our most dear brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, hath written to you:
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction.
1Pe 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel hath been preached unto you.
Rom 10:17 Faith then cometh by hearing; and hearing by the word of Christ.
1Co 15:1 Now I make known unto you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you have received and wherein you stand.
1Co 15:2 By which also you are saved, if you hold fast after what manner I preached unto you, unless you have believed in vain.
Mar 16:15 And he said to them: Go ye into the whole world and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mat 23:2 Saying: The scribes and the Pharisees have sitten on the chair of Moses.
Mat 23:3 All things therefore whatsoever they shall say to you, observe and do: but according to their works do ye not. For they say, and do not.
Eph 3:10 That the manifold wisdom of God may be made known to the principalities and powers in heavenly places through the church, **
**1Co 11:2 Now I praise you, brethren, that in all things you are mindful of me and keep my ordinances as I have delivered them to you.
2Th 2:15 (2:14) Therefore, brethren, stand fast: and hold the traditions, which you have learned, whether by word or by our epistle.
2Th 3:6 And we charge you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw yourselves from every brother walking disorderly and not according to the tradition which they have received of us.
Joh 21:25 But there are also many other things which Jesus did which, if they were written every one, the world itself. I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written.
Mar 13:31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my word shall not pass away.
2Ti 1:13 Hold the form of sound words which thou hast heard of me: in faith and in the love which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 2:2 And the things which thou hast heard of me by many witnesses, the same commend to faithful men who shall be fit to teach others also.
2Pe 1:20 Understanding this first: That no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation.
2Pe 3:15 And account the longsuffering of our Lord, salvation: as also our most dear brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, hath written to you:
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction.
1Pe 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel hath been preached unto you.
Rom 10:17 Faith then cometh by hearing; and hearing by the word of Christ.
1Co 15:1 Now I make known unto you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you have received and wherein you stand.
1Co 15:2 By which also you are saved, if you hold fast after what manner I preached unto you, unless you have believed in vain.
Mar 16:15 And he said to them: Go ye into the whole world and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mat 23:2 Saying: The scribes and the Pharisees have sitten on the chair of Moses.
Mat 23:3 All things therefore whatsoever they shall say to you, observe and do: but according to their works do ye not. For they say, and do not.
Eph 3:10 That the manifold wisdom of God may be made known to the principalities and powers in heavenly places through the church, **
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MacDaddy
Guest
No and you just made the point, Matthew would not make such a mistake. Where the mistake is the claim that Jesus changed His name in the first place. Simon means Peter and Jesus called him after this event Simon Peter, Simon Simon and Simon son of John, no name change, That is one of the fallacies of the entire debate. Which is why Jesus said you are a rock and upon this rock bed I will built my church. So what is the Petra? It is Jesus, what was the revelation to Peter and all the disciples, Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God. Not even a difficult passage to understand unless you have a bent of some sort.
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MacDaddy
Guest
Why did Peter deny Jesus three times?
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
But you can go against God’s design to create life for fleshly pleasure? The Holy Spirit, the giver of life, has a plan. Birth control is superceding God’s plan. So, it may not be killing, but is it according to God’s will? Which is submitting to God’s will? Birth control or no birth control? Which is placing faith in God? Birth control or not birth control?
Seems some are fitting theology to their lives, when they should consider fitting their lives to theology…
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MacDaddy
Guest
Hey brother you are the Biblical authority here. amen Did you read your post and the rebuttal and did you notice how you twisted my words to fit your post. That’s okay with me, no skin off my back, just trying to help resolve between tweety and the OP.
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
Mac,
You’re grasping at anything you can to deny Peter’s authority, clearly stated in scriptures. While you argue against the authority of the Catholic Church, you do so based on your interpretation, setting yourself up to be an ‘authority’. Personally, I’m going with Peter’s authority as it is written about in scriptures. You have yet to prove your authority…
Peter was a man. This was proven by his weaknesses, yet our Lord singled him out to ‘feed His sheep’. Asking him 3 times if he loved Him, each time commanding him to ‘feed his lambs’, after Peter had denied Him.
When this country was founded the founding fathers created a legislative body to interpret the constitution for us. They did not tell us to interpret it for ourselves. Why would anyone think God would have done less than men?
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Teneas
Guest
As far as the verse about the Church being the authority, I will admit to saying the word “plainly” to quickly. You, yourself, quoted 1 Tim. 3: 15. In that verse it does not say that scripture is the pillar and foundation of the truth does it now? No, it says that Church is.“Man will not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God” Jesus was SS - tell me where the mouth of God resides? The church is the pillar and support of what? The truth, God’s word is the truth. It does say it explicitly, just not in your vernacular.
Verse please.
The Trinity is very implicit all over Scripture with the best and clearest example of “in the Name (singular) of the 1)Father and of the 2)Son and of the 3)Holy Ghost”
SS is the only way, why? Where else has God spoken, which is now written.
**"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; **Jesus is SS and only quoted from the written word because He is the Word, not a church. The individual body is to protect that Word and exalt the Word to the glory of God.
Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, - this is how all Christians are able to know the truth. Mono e’ mono (One on one)
14 Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, 15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness, 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Paul was an SS man:
Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past, 26 but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith; 27 to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, be the glory forever. Amen.
Summary: Jesus, Peter and Paul were all SS men. Moses was an SS man, David was an SS man
Doesn’t depend on if it was written at the time it was spoken orally, because whether orally or written, it is all comes from the mouth of God and we are blessed to have it in written form. No one can add to Gods mouth from God’s view point.
There is no rational reason to assume that any oral teaching is not contained in the written word, for the oral teachings as Peter indicated above were one in the same, which makes since because anytime oral teaching is spoken of in the Scripture; it is indictive that it already existed; therefore could not be created nor invented, which is why god probably warned about adding to or subtracting fro His word. Sounds reasonable to me, but I am a SS man because I don’t see any way possible to prove anything outside of His word that exists and I have been searching and have thus far not found anything.
I would argue however, that Paul was not opposed to tradition either. Sure, he stuck by scripture by all means, but not alone.
2 Tim. 2: 2 That isn’t written scripture now is it? It was his words he wanted passed on.
2 Thessalonians 2:15 He is teaching opposite of what you are saying that he firmly a believer in.
1 Thessalonians 2:13 Again, not at all a SS man, so to speak. He is thanking them for receiving their words as God’s word.
1 Corinthians 11:2 “and hold fast to the traditions, just as I handed them to you” That isn’t exactly SS there. That is tradition and scripture.
2 Peter 20-21 Clearly says there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation.
Sola Scriptura holds no water, even when using the Bible against it. If you want to refer to all the scriptures where Paul, Peter, and others refer to scriptures, then by all means go ahead. We will only be able to focus on the OT if that is the case for there was no NT at the time those men walked the earth.
The fact remains that the CC put together the NT as it sits, and it remained untouched for 1500 years, until Martin Luther took it upon himself to remove books in it. Yes, our Bible is still complete. Is yours?
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MacDaddy
Guest
Two things: You just admitted that Simon is Peter, which is what I was hoping for and secondly the question was the number of times PETER is used. Not how many times Simon and Peter are used. Attention to detail is an important thing.Did you count the times he was referred too as Simon?
And with all the times Paul’s name was mentioned, it still doesn’t add up to more than Peter when you add all the other Apostle’s names to Pauls…
If we count Simon and also Peter, then we have 224 for Peter and Simon, not subtracting the other Simon, like Magus. Paul comes in at 160 using the NASB.
So what have we proven? zilch
If you add James & John to Paul, then you have 160 + 136 + 38 = 334, which is a larger number than 224 by any ones standard.
What have we proven? One thing or another?
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
i was being sarcastic. IWhen told the scriptures do not say Mary was ever virgin, I said, scriptures do not say Mary was NOT ever virgin. I’m told Catholics can’t prove a negative, referencing the perpetual viriginity, if it’s not in scriptures, but then the same people say, birth control is allowable because it’s not in scriptures. They are both negatives. It’s a double standard.
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MacDaddy
Guest
Like I said, you are the Bible expert and God will decide in the end who is correct. If you are, then I am doomed forever.
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Teneas
Guest
nods It is always a double standard.
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MacDaddy
Guest
I agree, so why do so many church’s make that claim?
The NT & the OT interpreter of Scripture are One in the same.
There you go again, turning my words to fit your intentions. I have never said anyones interpretation was incorrect. Just because I don’t agree because I have a different take on the Scripture and try to present it in a charitable manner doesn’t mean I declare one is wrong, they may be right. God will decide.
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Teneas
Guest
I surely hope not! You are a Christian. I hope I can party it up with ya in Heaven. If I make it there.
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
How do you decide which Church is right?
Did you read Nehemiah 8? Seems God used men of authority in the Temple to interpret Old Testament scriptures for the people, just as God used men of the Church to interpret New Testament scriptures to the people.
Oh, so saying Peter had no authority in this discussion is not to be taken as we are wrong?
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
Read post #196. He has given you the scriptures showing there was a documented name change.
It’s also been addressed in post #1. Please take time to read through the posts…
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MacDaddy
Guest
Simon = Peter = stone
Simon in Hebrew means hear or listen and you won’t find the name in the OT, but in Greek, Simon = Peter. Jesus gave him the same name but from a Hebrew root to a Greek root; yet Jesus called Him Simon, Simon Simon & Simon son of John after the Matthew 16 or Mark 3, so like i said, where is the name change? Furthermore; Petra is not Petro (Peter), otherwise He would be a girl.
Kind of insulting to Peter, the stone-man.Remember john the Baptist was proclaiming, “repent for the Kingdom of heaven is at hand”
Did you know the Kingdom is also (noun feminine). Also did you know that “church” is (noun feminine)? Did you know that Petra is (noun feminine)
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
**Mat 16:17 καιG2532 AND αποκριθειςG611 [G5679] οG3588 ANSWERING ιησουςG2424 JESUS ειπενG2036 [G5627] SAID αυτωG846 TO HIM, μακαριοςG3107 BLESSED ειG1488 [G5748] ART THOU, σιμωνG4613 βαρG920 SIMON ιωναG920G2495 BAR - JONAH, οτιG3754 FOR σαρξG4561 FLESH καιG2532 AND αιμαG129 ουκG3756 BLOOD απεκαλυψενG601 [G5656] REVEALED “IT” NOT σοιG4671 TO THEE, αλλG235 οG3588 BUT πατηρG3962 μουG3450 MY FATHER οG3588 WHO “IS” ενG1722 IN τοιςG3588 THE ουρανοιςG3772 HEAVENS.
Mat 16:18 καγωG2504 δεG1161 AND I ALSO σοιG4671 TO THEE λεγωG3004 [G5719] SAY, οτιG3754 THAT συG4771 THOU ειG1488 [G5748] ART πετροςG4074 PETER, καιG2532 AND επιG1909 ON ταυτηG3778 τηG3588 THIS πετραG4073 ROCK οικοδομησωG3618 [G5692] I WILL BUILD μουG3450 τηνG3588 MY εκκλησιανG1577 ASSEMBLY, καιG2532 AND πυλαιG4439 GATES αδουG86 ουG3756 OF HADES κατισχυσουσινG2729 [G5692] SHALL NOT PREVAIL AGAINST αυτηςG846 IT.
Mat 16:19 καιG2532 AND δωσωG1325 [G5692] I WILL GIVE σοιG4671 TO THEE ταςG3588 THE κλειςG2807 KEYS τηςG3588 OF THE βασιλειαςG932 KINGDOM τωνG3588 OF THE ουρανωνG3772 HEAVENS : καιG2532 AND οG3739 εανG1437 WHATEVER δησηςG1210 [G5661] THOU MAYEST BIND επιG1909 ON τηςG3588 THE γηςG1093 EARTH, εσταιG2071 [G5704] SHALL BE δεδεμενονG1210 [G5772] BOUND ενG1722 IN τοιςG3588 THE ουρανοιςG3772 HEAVENS; καιG2532 AND οG3739 εανG1437 WHATEVER λυσηςG3089 [G5661] THOU MAYEST LOOSE επιG1909 ON τηςG3588 THE γηςG1093 EARTH, εσταιG2071 [G5704] SHALL BE λελυμενονG3089 [G5772] LOOSED ενG1722 IN τοιςG3588 THE ουρανοιςG3772 HEAVENS.
G4074
Πέτρος
Petros
pet’-ros
Apparently a primary word; a (piece of) rock (larger than G3037); as a name, Petrus, an apostle: - Peter, rock. Compare G2786.
G4073
πέτρα
petra
pet’-ra
Feminine of the same as G4074; a (mass of) rock (literally or figuratively): - rock.
G2786
Κηφᾶς
Kēphas
kay-fas’
Of Chaldee origin (compare [H3710]); the Rock; Cephas (that is, Kepha), surname of Peter: - Cephas.**
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MacDaddy
Guest
My God is SS as I have shown above. The written Word says not everything Jesus DID, not SAID, could not be contained in all the books.(details) Therefore, I conclude that the oral teachings are written in the Bible and nothing else can be proven as divine in its origin. Since God said the Christian lives by what proceeds out of the mouth of God, I have not seen any evidence that anything else He said and made explicitly known is outside of the Scriptures, but I am still looking, just not seeing.
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