W
wmscott
Guest
And does not the Pope serve us all?
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W
wmscott
Guest
Lib Christian, what does this have to do with this thread? It totally amazes me, but it shouldn’t, that when a Catholic position is irrefutable someone has to go off in left field and throw mud to either divert from the truth or to just plain attack Christ’s Church.
Real Christian like Lib Christian, John 8:7 “Let the one among you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.”
Therefore, Lib Christian, are you casting the first stone? Is your house so sinless that you can sit in judgment of others?
This is not only an attack on the Priesthood, but it is also an attack on the Priests that Christ Himself ordained.
L
Lapey
Guest
AP -
“Here is the problem.
In the English language this passage is wonderfully ambiguous. I, from reading this passage, can not determine with certainty what this rock is.”
Lapey –
The English language has very little to do with this issue. It only matters what could have transpired, or probably transpired on that day. How does a conclusion come to be, but by tradition. Paul spoke many times of “what was passed on to him”. He was not speaking of scripture alone.
Sacred tradition and scripture match if you put it in context. This scene is a group of followers and Jesus, alone outside of an official site, i.e. synagogue or anywhere like a public square. I live in south Louisiana where the first language is Cajun French for many of the older generation and for almost all a hundred or so years ago, it is dying out now sadly. My point is when these older members of our community get together in a non official environment Cajun French is all they speak. If you are like me who only understands a little it’s just too bad keep up the best you can. I am sure that in this setting, my guess and scholars mostly affirm this, they would have been speaking Aramaic; not Greek.
There is still dispute as to the language that the Gospel of Matthew was originally written. There are manuscripts of the same age written both Aramaic and Greek.
AP -
“Some Protestants will point to the passage where Jesus is the cornerstone as a prooftext that this can not be Peter. However, since rock is clearly a metaphor, this prooftext proves nothing. It is certainly possible that Jesus can be the rock in one metaphorical sense while Peter can be the rock in another metaphorical sense.”
Lapey –
I agree that proof texting can be dangerous, especially when you go into a task to prove something wrong, like tradition. The reason I say this is because you go into the process of research with a preconceived notion that tradition means nothing, and Paul’s writings say otherwise. There are many places in scripture that demonstrate the primacy of Peter, but if you go into the study of these scriptures with the notion that this is not what is meant, then guess what, you will find proof to back up your misguided work.
AP -
“So you have to turn to the original languages. And from my perspective, experts in the original languages disagree on this passage. So then it reduces to which expert do you choose to believe.
”Lapey –
I choose to believe the ones that agree with the tradition that has been handed down with apostolic succession. The Word of God is not only written scripture, but also tradition. When you come to understand that the tradition has been handed down and protected for all these years the truth will become apparent. Even as a Catholic in my younger days I questioned all these teachings probably for the same as many others here, I listened to the world telling me these traditions were the “traditions of men” spoken of in scripture. When the whole time I ignored the fact that I was being taught the tradition of God, as part of His Word! The Pharisees were teaching the “traditions of men” and the apostles taught and passed on through the centuries the traditions of God.
AP -
“However, even if Peter is the rock in this passage (which is possible), that is the only conclusion that one may safely draw. You still have to make several leaps before you can safely conclude that the Catholic church of today, headed by the Pope in Rome, is exclusively the church of Jesus Christ.”
Lapey –
The leap comes when you choose not to believe this. History is on the side of the Church. But your use of the word “exclusively” implies that Roman Catholic Church members are the only heirs to salvation through Jesus Christ, that is not the truth nor does the Church teach this. In this scripture that the OP brought up originally, Jesus hands the Keys to Peter, and tells him the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail means that Jesus has entrusted the free gift of salvation to flow through Peter and the Church that Christ is establishing. All are offered this free gift that Jesus provides us, but He dictated that His saving Grace flows through His Church; the Catholic Church, all Rites in communion with Rome.
To use your words, here is the problem, when studying anything scriptural you cannot discount tradition. Scripture alone, “sola-scriptura” is a false teaching because it removes part of the Word of God. Read the scripture about wolves in sheep’s clothing, Matthew 7:13-16;
"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the road broad that leads to destruction, and those who enter through it are many.
How narrow the gate and constricted the road that leads to life. And those who find it are few.
"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves.
By their fruits you will know them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?”
Who is Jesus speaking to here? He is speaking to the group who began what all of us call our church today. The only way to see truthfully which is the Church, is to look at history and tradition, and both point to Rome. If Jesus is speaking of the Catholic Church, then He is warning me about “sola scriptura” teachers because He tells me that the road to life is constricted and the gate is narrow. Have there been bad people watching the gate? Yes! Does that make His Church evil? No! Beware of false prophets who come in sheep’s clothing, they are ravenous wolves; we have seen many ravenous wolves visit this site and will see many more, all claim to speak with love and in the name of His Church. Is the church you speak of the one that Jesus was speaking to in these scripture passages in Matthew?
A
AmateurPianist
Guest
Hmm…I thought I was clear in what I posted before?
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onenow1
Guest
A
AmateurPianist
Guest
I think both of you have fair points actually,.
We all have skeletons in our respective closets. Just one tiny example…we both have killing other Christians for Jesus.
It is when one of us claims that we are in a superior->inferior relationship to the other that our respective skeletons serve as evidence to counter these claims.
T
tweetymom
Guest
Amen and there are a lot of ways people kill Christians. I am glad that Jesus is ny rockI think both of you have fair points actually,.
We all have skeletons in our respective closets. Just one tiny example…we both have killing other Christians for Jesus.
It is when one of us claims that we are in a superior->inferior relationship to the other that our respective skeletons serve as evidence to counter these claims.
A
AmateurPianist
Guest
This is long and I am short of time. Might get to it later.AP -
“Here is the problem.
In the English language this passage is wonderfully ambiguous. I, from reading this passage, can not determine with certainty what this rock is.”
Lapey –
The English language has very little to do with this issue. It only matters what could have transpired, or probably transpired on that day. How does a conclusion come to be, but by tradition. Paul spoke many times of “what was passed on to him”. He was not speaking of scripture alone.
Sacred tradition and scripture match if you put it in context. This scene is a group of followers and Jesus, alone outside of an official site, i.e. synagogue or anywhere like a public square. I live in south Louisiana where the first language is Cajun French for many of the older generation and for almost all a hundred or so years ago, it is dying out now sadly. My point is when these older members of our community get together in a non official environment Cajun French is all they speak. If you are like me who only understands a little it’s just too bad keep up the best you can. I am sure that in this setting, my guess and scholars mostly affirm this, they would have been speaking Aramaic; not Greek.
There is still dispute as to the language that the Gospel of Matthew was originally written. There are manuscripts of the same age written both Aramaic and Greek.
AP -
“Some Protestants will point to the passage where Jesus is the cornerstone as a prooftext that this can not be Peter. However, since rock is clearly a metaphor, this prooftext proves nothing. It is certainly possible that Jesus can be the rock in one metaphorical sense while Peter can be the rock in another metaphorical sense.”
Lapey –
I agree that proof texting can be dangerous, especially when you go into a task to prove something wrong, like tradition. The reason I say this is because you go into the process of research with a preconceived notion that tradition means nothing, and Paul’s writings say otherwise. There are many places in scripture that demonstrate the primacy of Peter, but if you go into the study of these scriptures with the notion that this is not what is meant, then guess what, you will find proof to back up your misguided work.
AP -
“So you have to turn to the original languages. And from my perspective, experts in the original languages disagree on this passage. So then it reduces to which expert do you choose to believe.
Lapey –
I choose to believe the ones that agree with the tradition that has been handed down with apostolic succession. The Word of God is not only written scripture, but also tradition. When you come to understand that the tradition has been handed down and protected for all these years the truth will become apparent. Even as a Catholic in my younger days I questioned all these teachings probably for the same as many others here, I listened to the world telling me these traditions were the “traditions of men” spoken of in scripture. When the whole time I ignored the fact that I was being taught the tradition of God, as part of His Word! The Pharisees were teaching the “traditions of men” and the apostles taught and passed on through the centuries the traditions of God.
AP -
“However, even if Peter is the rock in this passage (which is possible), that is the only conclusion that one may safely draw. You still have to make several leaps before you can safely conclude that the Catholic church of today, headed by the Pope in Rome, is exclusively the church of Jesus Christ.”
Lapey –
The leap comes when you choose not to believe this. History is on the side of the Church. But your use of the word “exclusively” implies that Roman Catholic Church members are the only heirs to salvation through Jesus Christ, that is not the truth nor does the Church teach this. In this scripture that the OP brought up originally, Jesus hands the Keys to Peter, and tells him the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail means that Jesus has entrusted the free gift of salvation to flow through Peter and the Church that Christ is establishing. All are offered this free gift that Jesus provides us, but He dictated that His saving Grace flows through His Church; the Catholic Church, all Rites in communion with Rome.
To use your words, here is the problem, when studying anything scriptural you cannot discount tradition. Scripture alone, “sola-scriptura” is a false teaching because it removes part of the Word of God. Read the scripture about wolves in sheep’s clothing, Matthew 7:13-16;
"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the road broad that leads to destruction, and those who enter through it are many.
How narrow the gate and constricted the road that leads to life. And those who find it are few.
"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves.
By their fruits you will know them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?”
Who is Jesus speaking to here? He is speaking to the group who began what all of us call our church today. The only way to see truthfully which is the Church, is to look at history and tradition, and both point to Rome. If Jesus is speaking of the Catholic Church, then He is warning me about “sola scriptura” teachers because He tells me that the road to life is constricted and the gate is narrow. Have there been bad people watching the gate? Yes! Does that make His Church evil? No! Beware of false prophets who come in sheep’s clothing, they are ravenous wolves; we have seen many ravenous wolves visit this site and will see many more, all claim to speak with love and in the name of His Church. Is the church you speak of the one that Jesus was speaking to in these scripture passages in Matthew?
L
Lapey
Guest
So are you saying that any church which has a sinner as a leader cannot be the Church that Christ established? If that is the case then Jesus was not successful what so ever because everyone has sin, including me and you.
There are as many sick people in leadership roles in your church as there are in the RCC per capita, do the research. This does not only apply to us. It is quite sad and ignorant of you to stance your argument on this.
L
Lapey
Guest
So if Jesus is your rock, can’t He be mine as well?
Jesus is my rock, but He did not want me alone. He wants all of us, everyone whoever lived or will ever live, that’s why He built His Church upon the rock Peter. He wanted us all to be baptized and be saved by His grace.
We are all called to be saved, but not alone!
T
tweetymom
Guest
I do hope that Jesus is your rock. Peters faith,not Peter is what I am built on and I am not alone I have the Holy Spirit with me always. God Bless
O
onenow1
Guest
Jesus appointed St.Peter, it is pretty clear in Matthew,and Acts of the Apostles etc.
The appointer is greater than the appointee,Captain Jesus told Ensign Rocky you’ve got the bridge take the helm for know sailor.
Peace and God Bless
onenow1
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tweetymom
Guest
The helm was Peters faith and that is what I am built on.Jesus appointed St.Peter, it is pretty clear in Matthew,and Acts of the Apostles etc.
The appointer is greater than the appointee,Captain Jesus told Ensign Rocky you’ve got the bridge take the helm for know sailor.
Peace and God Bless
onenow1
O
onenow1
Guest
In charge of the helm right now is St.Peter, steering the ship under the guidence of the Holy Spirit.
Peace,onenow1
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tweetymom
Guest
Jesus is at the Helm and the Holy Spirit is our navigator. God Bless
O
onenow1
Guest
The Admiral, has appointed Jesus who appointed St.Peter to be guided by the Holy Spirit in all things.
Peace
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tweetymom
Guest
Sorry but Peters faith in Jesus is the rock. Jesus is my rock, not peterThe Admiral, has appointed Jesus who appointed St.Peter to be guided by the Holy Spirit in all things.
Peace
P
PJM
Guest
Dear friend, like a great many non -catholics, you lack understading. Maybe I can help?
Your statement lacks not only understanding, but also simple logic.
Mt. 28:19 [Jesus speaking] “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”
It takes a great deal of time and countless people dedicated to Christ to accomplish this mandate.
**John 10:16 **And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd.
Eph. 2:19 “So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,** [singular]** built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; [singular] in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.”
Then friend, reread Mt. 16:15-19 and please share with us where unlimited authority; guided by the Holy Spirt, with Christ Himseld as Guarantor has exceeded it’s mandate an authority?
**Again Jesus speaking: Jn.17:15-19 **“I do not pray that thou shouldst take them out of the world, but that thou shouldst keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth. [18] As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. *And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth.” *
Is there mention of OSAS? Salvation by “faith alone” **[James 2] **or "everything one needs is in the Bible? **John 21: 24-25]/B]
So your saying that Christ became Incarnate man, died, and rose from the dead to effect our Redemption, FOUNDED HIS ONE Church, ***and planned and expected ***it to die as soon as Peter [the foundation of the Church] was executed?
Luke.5: 8 "But when Simon Peter saw it, he fell down at Jesus’ knees, saying, “Depart from me, for I am a sinful man, O Lord.” **Guess what? Jesus knew what He was doing.
and 1 Jn. 1: 8-10** “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.” [Catholic Sacrament of KNOWN FORGIVENESS /Confession!]
As a point of your edification friend; it is “THE Catholic CHURCH” that cannot, and does not sin…NOT THE PEOPLE WHO ARE IN HER:thumbsup: It is the same Church that has the Holy Spirt to guide, guard, protect Her holiness and Truth on all matters of Faith and Morals.
And yes :blush:that indeed does make the sins of these FEW errant priest and Bishops even more grevious in the eyrs of God.
As further edification, the percentge of errant clerics has been shown to mirror the national percentage for teh same sin, and about the same as any other christian denomination. Let’s add proper perspective.
It is the singular truthful Teachings of THE Catholic Church ONLY on matters of Faith and Morals, that God’s protects with His Word, and His Life. NO OTHER CHURH CAN MAKE THIS CLAIM AND SUPPORT IT FACTUALLY.**
L
Lib_Christian
Guest
WOW! I truly meant not to begin such a firestorm. Lots to respond to in a short amt of time.
But first of all, thank you tweetymom. I agree with a lot of your posts as well.
Now to attempt some responses to others… It seems to me, all of us, even devout, practicing Catholics go by our interpretations. Some of us read Scripture and have interpreted the Catholic Church under Peter as the rock, and then under his successors, is the one true Church, and others as they feel led by the Holy Spirit are not at that point. And yes I have sinned too. Just to clarify I haven’t abused children or covered up abuse but of course I’ve sinned. And yes sin is sin.
But while we can disagree, it just seems to me there has to be a bit of a higher standard if I am to follow someone put into a position of leadership. But perhaps that’s just me. Someone earlier compared the abuse scandal to school teachers. Hopefully a teacher is not left in positions as the abusive priests were. And if a school system left such a teacher in his or her position, I probably wouldn’t keep my children in that system. I would not feel served by such a system.
I already explained how this related to the the thread so I won’t go there again.
But perhaps Pianist said it best. Fair points by all. Peace, love, and tolerance in our walks.
Lib
But first of all, thank you tweetymom. I agree with a lot of your posts as well.
Now to attempt some responses to others… It seems to me, all of us, even devout, practicing Catholics go by our interpretations. Some of us read Scripture and have interpreted the Catholic Church under Peter as the rock, and then under his successors, is the one true Church, and others as they feel led by the Holy Spirit are not at that point. And yes I have sinned too. Just to clarify I haven’t abused children or covered up abuse but of course I’ve sinned. And yes sin is sin.
But while we can disagree, it just seems to me there has to be a bit of a higher standard if I am to follow someone put into a position of leadership. But perhaps that’s just me. Someone earlier compared the abuse scandal to school teachers. Hopefully a teacher is not left in positions as the abusive priests were. And if a school system left such a teacher in his or her position, I probably wouldn’t keep my children in that system. I would not feel served by such a system.
I already explained how this related to the the thread so I won’t go there again.
But perhaps Pianist said it best. Fair points by all. Peace, love, and tolerance in our walks.
Lib
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tweetymom
Guest
Thank you and sometimes all it takes to start a fire storm is to disagree. God Bless
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