Who was the Rock in Matthew 16:18?

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Was reading this thread to learn more about Orthodoxy.

It is a long read, and although the subject of this thread is different, in reading this thread I learned that the Orthodox consider Peter’s statement of faith to be the rock. They also cite statements from the ECF to support their contention.

I also read in another thread a claim (by a Catholic) that the differences between Catholicism and Orthodoxy were minor (in face the word trivial might have been used). If that is true, then the whole debate here is over a minor issue.

Just saying.
 
Dear Javl,

I think lib is right. Just as the prodigal son didn’t cease to be his father’s son when he went away and wasted his father’s money and his own life.

Even though I didn’t consider myself a Catholic for 20 yrs, I never lost that indelible mark on my soul that I received at my Catholic baptism. When I came to my senses, like the prodigal son, I was received back Home, no questions asked, I just needed to get right with God and my Church by making a good confession and coming back into Communion. There was a time I would have argued against it, but the saying “Once Catholic, always Catholic” is true. Mysterious, indelible, and true.

EXCOMMUNICATION
newadvent.org/cathen/05678a.htm
Ok if you say so. I also am a revert. But when I was outside of the Church I did not consider myself Catholic even though I held onto most of the beliefs. Anyway, I’ll no longer discuss/argue the point. Sooner or later ( sooner I pray ) they will hear and listen to the Holy Spirit. Meanwhile God Bless.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:
 
What about a church that has at least four popes,that even I can count.?

What about that Church where two sections both claim to be the one true church? Who are not in communion with each other!

Where they have two Holy Roman Catholic Churches and two others who claim that they are the Church and the others are not?
And what is your point? Do you know the Catholic Church’s history? If you did , you would know what it’s all about. Your anti-Catholic bias is really showing through.

There was only ONE legitimate Pope. The others were antipopes who claimed the papcy for prestige and power. It still remained one Church.

As far as I know of there is only one Catholic Church which is made up of Western and Eastern Rite Churches. It is true that many have separated, or broken off, from the Catholic Church. These are the Orthodox and Protestants ( also the Anglicans ). There are also churches and cults that have sparated, or broken off, from these But the Catholic Church has remained steadfast and true to Jesus Christ down through the ages. Prove otherwise.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
 
Was reading this thread to learn more about Orthodoxy.

It is a long read, and although the subject of this thread is different, in reading this thread I learned that the Orthodox consider Peter’s statement of faith to be the rock. They also cite statements from the ECF to support their contention.

I also read in another thread a claim (by a Catholic) that the differences between Catholicism and Orthodoxy were minor (in face the word trivial might have been used). If that is true, then the whole debate here is over a minor issue.

Just saying.
The East-West split was never initially because of heresy, as it is with the Protestants. It was a Schism which derived from territorial issues, and language barriers. They drifted away from their Fathers (the Latin Church) and have since evolved into something new.

Like the Protestants they must have also had to deny Peter as the rock to justify their separation from the Church… Their “Father” Church (the Latin Church) however does not deny Peter as the Rock. It obeys the one hierarchy showing its United Faith in communion with The Church.
 
Janet-

Protestant Scholars Agree: Peter is the Rock

W.F. Albright and C.S. Mann


“[Peter] is not a name, but an appellation and a play on words. There is no evidence of Peter or Kephas as a name before Christian times….Peter as Rock will be the foundation of the future community. Jesus, not quoting the Old Testament, here uses Aramaic, not Hebrew, and so uses the only Aramaic word that would serve his purpose. In view of the background of v. 19…one must dismiss as confessional interpretation any attempt to see this rock as meaning the faith, or the messianic confession, of Peter. “To deny the pre-eminent position of Peter,” Albright says, “among the disciples or in the early Christian community is a denial of the evidence. The interest in Peter’s failures and vacillations does not detract from this pre-eminence, rather it emphasizes it. Had Peter been a lesser figure, his behavior would have been of far less consequence. Precisely because Peter is pre-eminent and is the foundation stone of the Church that his mistakes are in a sense so important, but his mistakes never correspond to his teachings as the Prince of the Apostles.” (The Anchor Bible; Matthew [Garden City, N.Y.: Doubleday & Co., 1971], 195)

Donald A. Carson (Baptist)

“On the basis of the distinction between ‘petros’ . . . and ‘petra’ . . . , many have attempted to avoid identifying Peter as the rock on which Jesus builds his church. Peter is a mere ‘stone,’ it is alleged; but Jesus himself is the ‘rock’ . . . Others adopt some other distinction . . . Yet if it were not for Protestant reactions against extremes of Roman Catholic interpretation, it is doubtful whether many would have taken ‘rock’ to be anything or anyone other than Peter . . . The Greek makes the distinction between ‘petros’ and ‘petra’ simply because it is trying to preserve the pun, and in Greek the feminine ‘petra’ could not very well serve as a masculine name . . . Had Matthew wanted to say no more than that Peter was a stone in contrast with Jesus the Rock, the more common word would have been ‘lithos’ (‘stone’ of almost any size). Then there would have been no pun - and that is just the point! . . . In this passage Jesus is the builder of the church and it would be a strange mixture of metaphors that also sees him within the same clauses as its foundation . . .” (Expositor’s Bible Commentary, [Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1984], vol. 8: Matthew, Mark, Luke (Matthew: D.A. Carson), 368)

Oscar Cullman (Protestant Scholar)

“But what does Jesus mean when He says: ‘On this rock I will build my church’? The idea of the Reformers that He is referring to the faith of Peter is quite inconceivable in vew of the probably different setting of the story. For there is no reference here to the faith of Peter. Rather, the parallelism of ‘thou art rock’ and ‘on this rock I will build’ shows that the second rock can only be the same as the first. It is thus evident that Jesus is referring to Peter, to whom he has given the name Rock. He appoints Peter, the impulsive, enthusiastic, but not persevering man in the circle, to be the foundation of His ecclesia [church]. To this extent Roman Catholic exegesis is right and all Protestant attempts to evade this interpretation are to be rejected.” (Oscar Cullman, Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, (ed. Gerhard Kittel and Gerhard Friedrich), [Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1968], 6:108).

David Hill (Presbyterian)

“It is on Peter himself, the confessor of his Messiahship, that Jesus will build the Church…Attempts to interpret the ‘rock’ as something other than Peter in person (e.g., his faith, the truth revealed to him) are due to Protestant bias, and introduce to the statement a degree of subtlety which is highly unlikely.” (The Gospel of Matthew, New Century Bible Commentary [Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1972], 261)
And I will add to this:

Gerhard Maier
leading conservative evangelical Lutheran theologian

Nowadays a broad consensus has emerged which — in accordance with the words of the text — applies the promise to Peter as a person. On this point liberal (H. J. Holtzmann, E. Schweiger) and conservative (Cullmann, Flew) theologians agree, as well as representatives of Roman Catholic exegesis.

“The Church in the Gospel of Matthew: Hermeneutical Analysis of the Current Debate”
Biblical Interpretation and Church Text and Context (Flemington Markets, NSW: Paternoster Press, 1984), page 58 JPK pages 16-17

J. Knox Chamblin Presbyterian and New Testament Professor
Reformed Theological Seminary

By the words “this rock” Jesus means not himself, nor his teaching, nor God the Father, nor Peter’s confession, but Peter himself. The phrase is immediately preceded by a direct and emphatic reference to Peter. As Jesus identifies himself as the Builder, the rock on which he builds is most naturally understood as someone (or something) other than Jesus himself. The demonstrative this, whether denoting what is physically close to Jesus or what is literally close in Matthew, more naturally refers to Peter (v. 18) than to the more remote confession (v. 16). The link between the clauses of verse 18 is made yet stronger by the play on words, “You are Peter (Gk. Petros), and on this rock (Gk. petra) I will build my church”.** As an apostle, Peter utters the confession of verse 16; as a confessor he receives the designation this rock from Jesus.
**
“Matthew”
Evangelical Commentary on the Bible
(Grand Rapids, MI: Baker, 1989), page 742
JPK page 30

There is a lot more than this though: catholicity.elcore.net/SimonIsTheRock.html
 
Javi, et al, hopefully this will help. Obviously unless Tweety or I or anyone else has formally requested our bishops to note in our baptismal records a desire to defect, then we are Catholic whether you like it or not. It’s a long letter to copy and paste here due to forum limits. But I have included points here.

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/intrptxt/documents/rc_pc_intrptxt_doc_20060313_

PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR LEGISLATIVE TEXTS

ACTUS FORMALIS DEFECTIONIS
AB ECCLESIA CATHOLICA

Vatican City, 13 March 2006

Prot. N. 10279/2006

Your Excellency:

For quite some time, a considerable number of Bishops, Judicial Vicars and others working in the field of canon law have been posing to this Pontifical Council questions and requests for clarification concerning the so-called actus formalis defectionis ab Ecclesia catholica

The issue was carefully examined by the competent Dicasteries of the Holy See in order to identify, first of all, the theological and doctrinal components of an actus formalis defectionis ab Ecclesia catholica and then in turn the requirements or juridical formalities that **would be necessary so that such an action would constitute a true “formal act” of defection. **
  1. **For the abandonment of the Catholic Church to be validly configured as a true actus formalis defectionis ab Ecclesia so that the exceptions foreseen in the previously mentioned canons would apply, it is necessary that there concretely be:
a) the internal decision to leave the Catholic Church;
b) the realization and external manifestation of that decision; and
c) the reception of that decision by the competent ecclesiastical authority.**
  1. The juridical-administrative act of abandoning the Church does not per se constitute a formal act of defection as understood in the Code, given that there could still be the will to remain in the communion of the faith.
    On the other hand, **heresy (whether formal or material), schism and apostasy do not in themselves constitute a formal act of defection if they are not externally concretized and manifested to the ecclesiastical authority in the required manner.**4. The defection must be a valid juridical act, placed by a person who is canonically capable and in conformity with the canonical norms that regulate such matters (cfr. cann.124-126). Such an act must be taken personally, consciously and freely.
  2. It is required, moreover, that the act be manifested by the interested party in written form, before the competent authority of the Catholic Church: the Ordinary or proper pastor, who is uniquely qualified to make the judgment concerning the existence or non-existence of the act of the will as described above in n. 2.
  3. In such cases, the competent ecclesiastical authority mentioned above is to provide that **this act be noted in the baptismal registry **
  4. **It remains clear, in any event, that the sacramental bond of belonging to the Body of Christ that is the Church, conferred by **the baptismal character, is an ontological and permanent bond which is not lost by reason of any act or fact of defection **
With the certainty that the Bishops of your Conference, conscious of the salvific dimension of ecclesiastical communion, will well understand the pastoral motivations underlying these norms, I welcome this opportunity to renew my sentiments of fraternal esteem.

Faithfully yours in the Lord,

Julián Card. Herranz
President

Bruno Bertagna
Secretary

This notification was approved by the Supreme Pontiff, Benedict XVI, who directed that it be transmitted to all Presidents of Episcopal Conferences.**
 
Javi, et al, hopefully this will help. Obviously unless Tweety or I or anyone else has formally requested our bishops to note in our baptismal records a desire to defect, then we are Catholic whether you like it or not. It’s a long letter to copy and paste here due to forum limits. But I have included points here.

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/intrptxt/documents/rc_pc_intrptxt_doc_20060313_

PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR LEGISLATIVE TEXTS

ACTUS FORMALIS DEFECTIONIS
AB ECCLESIA CATHOLICA

Vatican City, 13 March 2006

Prot. N. 10279/2006

Your Excellency:

For quite some time, a considerable number of Bishops, Judicial Vicars and others working in the field of canon law have been posing to this Pontifical Council questions and requests for clarification concerning the so-called **actus formalis defectionis ab Ecclesia catholica **

The issue was carefully examined by the competent Dicasteries of the Holy See in order to identify, first of all, the theological and doctrinal components of an actus formalis defectionis ab Ecclesia catholica and then in turn the requirements or juridical formalities that **would be necessary so that such an action **would constitute a true “formal act” of defection. ****
  1. For the abandonment of the Catholic Church to be validly configured as a true actus formalis defectionis ab Ecclesia so that the exceptions foreseen in the previously mentioned canons would apply, it is necessary that there concretely be:
    **
    a) the internal decision to leave the Catholic Church;
    b) the realization and external manifestation of that decision; and
    c) the reception of that decision by the competent ecclesiastical authority.
    **
  2. The juridical-administrative act of abandoning the Church does not per se constitute a formal act of defection as understood in the Code, given that there could still be the will to remain in the communion of the faith.
    On the other hand, ****heresy (whether formal or material), schism and apostasy do not in themselves constitute a formal act of defection if they are not externally concretized and manifested to the ecclesiastical authority in the required manner.**4. The defection must be a valid juridical act, placed by a person who is canonically capable and in conformity with the canonical norms that regulate such matters (cfr. cann.124-126). ** Such an act must be taken personally, consciously and freely.
  3. It is required, moreover, that the act be manifested by the interested party in written form, before the competent authority of the Catholic Church: the Ordinary or proper pastor, who is uniquely qualified to make the judgment concerning the existence or non-existence of the act of the will as described above in n. 2.
  4. In such cases, the competent ecclesiastical authority mentioned above is to provide that **]this act be noted in the baptismal registry **
  1. **It remains clear, in any event, that the sacramental bond of belonging to the Body of Christ that is the Church, conferred by ****]the baptismal character, is an ontological and permanent bond which is not lost by reason of any act or fact of defection ******
With the certainty that the Bishops of your Conference, conscious of the salvific dimension of ecclesiastical communion, will well understand the pastoral motivations underlying these norms, I welcome this opportunity to renew my sentiments of fraternal esteem.

Faithfully yours in the Lord,

Julián Card. Herranz
President

Bruno Bertagna
Secretary

This notification was approved by the Supreme Pontiff, Benedict XVI, who directed that it be transmitted to all Presidents of Episcopal Conferences.

Thanks for this research, Javl. I have wondered about my own circumstances myself for 6 yrs, even scoured canon law, but didn’t find this. The part I bolded made me cry. I am so glad I never defected. I am so glad that God and His Church has so much mercy. I love my Catholic faith.
 
Infallibility is something that God does to make sure that the sheep are kept safe.
Yeah I know about the belief of infallibilty in doctrine. But hmm… the sheep were very safe. Tell that to some young child who was sexually abused and then had it covered up by the apostolic successors. We shall know the false teachers by their fruit.
 
Hmm… yeah the sheep were very safe. Tell that to some young child who was sexually abused and then had it covered up by the apostolic successors. We shall know the false teachers by their fruit.
tsk tsk. Poor form man. There are plenty of horrible things done by men throughout history. If you have to judge, judge the men, not the entire Church.
 
Great that you have a letter from your Bishop stating that you are a Catholic. Did he or any of his staff examine you for your beliefs?

Thanks. Yes he knew where I dissented and questioned.
 
Ok if you say so. Anyway, I’ll no longer discuss/argue the point. Sooner or later ( sooner I pray ) they will hear and listen to the Holy Spirit. Meanwhile God Bless.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:
Thank you Grace for saying so. And Javi for no longer arguing who is Catholic.
:amen: and :blessyou: too. Peace.
 
Thanks for this research, Javl. I have wondered about my own circumstances myself for 6 yrs, even scoured canon law, but didn’t find this. The part I bolded made me cry. I am so glad I never defected. I am so glad that God and His Church has so much mercy. I love my Catholic faith.
Grace, you’re welcome but I’m not Javi. I’m sure it was an honest mistake. 🙂 Peace and God bless!
 
tsk tsk. Poor form man. There are plenty of horrible things done by men throughout history. If you have to judge, judge the men, not the entire Church.
I’m not judging their salvation. I’m merely trying to discern whether the men are true shepherds by their fruits considering their power and all.
 
(Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition)

Acts 17:11 Now these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, who received the word with all eagerness, daily searching the scriptures, whether these things were so.
Acts 17:10 - 12
10 Then the brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea. When they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so. 12 Therefore many of them believed, and also not a few of the Greeks, prominent women as well as men. (KJV)


After searching the Scripture, MANY of them believed. That implies that MANY of them did not. They searched the same Scriptures, and yet disagreed. And, we can assume that the Greeks probably did not search the Scriptures at all, yet a “number of them” believed.

So if Berean “A” searched the Scriptures and thus believed Paul, yet Berean “B” searched the very same Scriptures and disagreee, and, further, a “number of Greeks” my very well have not searched the Scriptures at all, then where are we left? Is Berean “A” right and Berean “B” wrong? Is neither one right or wrong and only the Scripture is right? Are the Greeks (who might very well be Gentiles and unfamiliar with the Scriptures, right? Are some right? No. Paul is right!

Paul was sent (the definition of Apostle) to teach. He was sent with authority. He says so himself. He did not go to Berea to hold a Bible Study. He did not “ask” them to “search the Scriptures”. He did not say “I am telling you the truth because the Bible says so”. He taught with authority. He was right, and teaching Truth, whether or not the Bereans found it in Scripture. Some found it, some did not. Is Paul any less right because many did not believe? No. Paul is right whether or not Berean “A” finds it in Scripture or Berean"B" does not. Nowhere does this text state, or even imply, that the decision is up to the Bereans. Nowhere does it state or imply that Paul’s teachings are only to be considered valid if it can be proven in Scripture.

What Paul taught was Truth because he had the authority to teach it. “Many”, after searching the Scriptures, believed him. “Many”, after searching the very same Scriptures, did not. Who was right? The answer is: None of them. Paul was right.
2 Timothy 3
15And because from thy infancy thou hast known the holy scriptures, which can instruct thee to salvation, by the faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice,
17That the man of God may be perfect, furnished to every good work.

Prod, I guess it is on faith then that we will just have to decide for ourselves whether searching Scripture to see if things taught are true includes searching what later became the whole Scripture. And agree to disagree and leave it at that. God bless.
The scriptures they had known since THEIR infancy, was the Old Testament. They knew it since their infancy because it was READ to them at the synagogues and Temple, where the scriptures were kept.

Now, you post 2 Timothy 3:16, without comment, because I suspect you realize ‘profitable’ is useful, but still far from being all that is necessary. Next, please show me where Paul was writing ‘Timothy’ and said everyone should teach themselves the scriptures? You won’t find it. Those were instructions to Timothy.

This is another example of pulling out a few verses to fit a theology. We should work to fit our theology to ALL of scriptures, in context.
 
Whew! Alrighty now that we have concluded who is Catholic, I can go get a sandwich and ya’ll can continue with who the rock is. God bless!
 
The scriptures they had known since THEIR infancy, was the Old Testament.
Like I said Prod, you will have to determine based on faith if the NT was to be included in Scripture. If the Bible is insprired by God, He probably knew at the time there was going to be a NT added to Scripture. Personally I’ve known both OT and NT. Ok going for that sandwich now.
 
Like I said Prod, you will have to determine based on faith if the NT was to be included in Scripture. If the Bible is insprired by God, He probably knew at the time there was going to be a NT added to Scripture. Personally I’ve known both OT and NT. Ok going for that sandwich now.
You can read anything into scriptures you want, it’s very close to adding to the scriptures, again to fit scriptures to a pre-determined theology. We should strive to fit our theology to scriptures, and not just a ‘snippet’ of scriptures.

Again you missed the entire point of the passage you provided. They searched the scriptures to see if what Paul was teaching them was there in the Old Testament. Even with Paul teaching them, ‘many’ of them believed, not ALL of them believed. So, searching the scriptures, ALL of them did not find the truth or have FAITH. But then, you skipped that and jumped to a pre-determined notion on the other passage.

The Bible is inspired by God, there is no ‘IF’ about it. Now, please show where God inspired it be written that each ‘infant’ should teach themselves the scriptures? Again, you missed the point, they knew the scriptures since their infancy because the scriptures had been TAUGHT to them, orally. They didn’t read the scriptures for themselves then either. Those in the synagogues and Temple were the authority that taught them the scriptures. That’s how they arrived at an interpretation.
 
OK, here’s a challenge to my Protestant and Eastern Orthodox brethren, and to the other people who deny that Simon, the person became the Rock. In the following passages, taken from John Chapter 1, a bunch of people confess that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, starting with St. John the Baptist, and ending with Nathanael who is one of the 12 Apostles. Yet, ONLY Simon was renamed later as Cephas (Rock). Moreover, here when Simon meets Jesus, Jesus immediately greets him with this prophesy (verse 42): “You are Simon the son of John; you will be called Cephas” (which is translated Peter).

Why? Why rename Simon only, and not St. John the Baptist, as well as John, Andrew, Philip, and Nathanael the Apostles?? They also confessed that Jesus was the Messiah, yet Jesus didn’t tell them that they were going to be renamed as Cephas??

And how about the man possessed by the devil? The devil also confessed that Jesus was the Son of God, and yet Jesus didn’t tell him that he was going to build his Church on the devil, or on the devil’s confession? :eek:

How about the practicing homosexual Bishops in certain Christian denominations, who confess that Jesus is the Son of God, but teach that the practice of homosexuality and artificial birth control are not sinful? Is Jesus Christ’s glorious Church, against which the gates of hell will not prevail, also built on them? :eek:

usccb.org/nab/bible/john/john1.htm
where John was baptizing.
29
The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, 21 who takes away the sin of the world.
30
22 He is the one of whom I said, ‘A man is coming after me who ranks ahead of me because he existed before me.’
31
I did not know him, 23 but the reason why I came baptizing with water was that he might be made known to Israel.”
32
John testified further, saying, “I saw the Spirit come down like a dove 24 from the sky and remain upon him.
33
I did not know him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘On whomever you see the Spirit come down and remain, he is the one who will baptize with the holy Spirit.’
34
25 Now I have seen and testified that he is the Son of God.”
35
The next day John was there again with two of his disciples,
36
and as he watched Jesus walk by, he said, “Behold, the Lamb of God.” 26
37
The two disciples 27 heard what he said and followed Jesus.
38
Jesus turned and saw them following him and said to them, “What are you looking for?” They said to him, “Rabbi” (which translated means Teacher), “where are you staying?”
39
He said to them,“Come, and you will see.” So they went and saw where he was staying, and they stayed with him that day. It was about four in the afternoon. 28
40
Andrew, the brother of Simon Peter, was one of the two who heard John and followed Jesus.
41
He first found his own brother Simon and told him, “We have found the Messiah” 29 (which is translated Anointed).
42
Then he brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him and said, “You are Simon the son of John; 30 you will be called Cephas” (which is translated Peter).
43
The next day he 31 decided to go to Galilee, and he found Philip. And Jesus said to him, “Follow me.”
44
Now Philip was from Bethsaida, the town of Andrew and Peter.
45
Philip found Nathanael and told him, “We have found the one about whom Moses wrote in the law, and also the prophets, Jesus, son of Joseph, from Nazareth.”
46
But Nathanael said to him, “Can anything good come from Nazareth?” Philip said to him, “Come and see.”
47
Jesus saw Nathanael coming toward him and said of him, “Here is a true Israelite. 32 There is no duplicity in him.”
48
33 Nathanael said to him, “How do you know me?” Jesus answered and said to him, “Before Philip called you, I saw you under the fig tree.”
49
Nathanael answered him, “Rabbi, you are the Son of God; 34 you are the King of Israel.”
 
OK, here’s a challenge to my Protestant and Eastern Orthodox brethren, and to the other people who deny that Simon, the person became the Rock. In the following passages, taken from John Chapter 1, a bunch of people confess that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, starting with St. John the Baptist, and ending with Nathanael who is one of the 12 Apostles. Yet, ONLY Simon was renamed later as Cephas (Rock). Moreover, here when Simon meets Jesus, Jesus immediately greets him with this prophesy (verse 42): “You are Simon the son of John; you will be called Cephas” (which is translated Peter).

Why? Why rename Simon only, and not St. John the Baptist, as well as John, Andrew, Philip, and Nathanael the Apostles?? They also confessed that Jesus was the Messiah, yet Jesus didn’t tell them that they were going to be renamed as Cephas??

And how about the man possessed by the devil? The devil also confessed that Jesus was the Son of God, and yet Jesus didn’t tell him that he was going to build his Church on the devil, or on the devil’s confession? :eek:

How about the practicing homosexual Bishops in certain Christian denominations, who confess that Jesus is the Son of God, but teach that the practice of homosexuality and artificial birth control are not sinful? Is Jesus Christ’s glorious Church, against which the gates of hell will not prevail, also built on them? :eek:

usccb.org/nab/bible/john/john1.htm
A very good post, JLV, but they will ignore it.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
 
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