Who was the Rock in Matthew 16:18?

[Dokimas]

Why is it that Christ cannot build His Church where he chooses…(

Peace,
Robert

Sure He can and does and will. He does it His way not your way, not my way, not your church’s way and not my church’s way.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Originally Posted by Prodigal Son1
Jesus knows all men (mankind) and He knows our weaknesses. Good point. The Apostles continously questioned His teachings, Peter denied Him three times, Judas betrayed Him, Paul persecuted ‘Him’ and Thomas doubted Him. Good point. He knew, and knows, there were and would not any who would be perfect. Good point Yet, He ordained the Apostles and He gave them the keys to the kingdom of heaven I thought Peter got the keys, He gave them the authority to bind and loose on earth The specifics of what that means is up for interpretation, He sent them out to preach the Gospel and He told Peter to feed His lambs. Good point.

How is it one can consider the scriptures ‘perfect’ It’s God’s Word when it was written by men you’ve aready made good points about mankind, don’t go back on the points now who made mistakes, yet doubt the Church Christ built made up of mistake ridden mankind because of men who were not and would not be perfect? That’s the nature of inspiration. It’s the One that inspires that is perfect.

It seems to limit the power of the Holy Spirit Not at all to only have the ability to do one task and only be able to protect the inspired written word of God through the canonization process BTW, it was not the canonization that makes the Bible inspired, it’s the original men of God that wrote the words that were inspired by the Holy Spirit. After that, sure the Holy Spirit gave insight for canonization., the many years, with just as many translations and , now, the multiple interpretations of scriptures, all by less than perfect men. Good point

Why is it that some people don’t believe God could protect His truth through a Church He, Himself, started? The truths are protected in His church; the place of disagreement is what is His church called and who makes up that church? The truths of His church that He has preserved often gets mixed in with other beliefs. Look at what happened in Israel and their living out what God expected of them … it got destored by God’s chosen. Why should we be any different? Both are/were God’s chosen.
Christ did not write anything Himself, nor did He command anything transcibed, but we know He started a Church. Yet again, people believe totally in the one Christ never did or ordered done and doubt His ability to protect the one we know He started. As I said, both involved less than perfect people, as there is only one that is perfect. Good point.

Hello Dokimas,

The same, fallible, men who wrote scriptures, were in authority over His Church. Then the fallible men of the Church defined the canon of scriptures. What we have is a beginning of ‘fallible’ men making decisions on the ‘infallible’ written word, written through ‘faulty’ men.

We have seen the faults of men of the Church continously pointed out, yet faulty men were chosen by Christ. Do you not think that Christ knew all men who succeeded those He ordained would be faulty as well?

The Church has not been destroyed, as you speak of Israel. It has been in existence for over 2000 years now.

Let’s, once again, look at what Christ taught about the Israelites, that were the authority in the Temple. The Temple was the way to God through the old covenant. The Church is the way to God through the new covenant. Please don’t confuse this as the Church before Christ, because Christ is the only way to God. Christ is the only begotten Son of the Father with the Holy Spirit, ONE God.

Mat 23:1 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to his disciples,
Mat 23:2 Saying: The scribes and the Pharisees have sitten on the chair of Moses.
Mat 23:3 All things therefore whatsoever they shall say to you, observe and do: but according to their works do ye not. For they say, and do not.

Can you not see Christ’s confidence that God can protect His truth, even through faulty men?

He did not teach to disregard those of authority then and He never said to disregard the Church He built.

The keys to the kingdom of heaven were given to Peter, the leader of His Church, a mortal man that would eventually die. Was it intended that the keys go with him in his death, or remain with the Church he led through Apostolic succession?

Bind and loose on earth and it will be bound and loosed in heaven…it’s very clear if you don’t try to read anything else into it. I’m not saying that you are, but it seems a lot of Protestants have had to come up with creative justifications for starting other Churches and therefore had to read other things into certain scriptures that clearly support Catholic teachings.

 

[Dokimas]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lib Christian
Yeah I know about the belief of infallibilty in doctrine. But hmm… the sheep were very safe. Tell that to some young child who was sexually abused and then had it covered up by the apostolic successors. We shall know the false teachers by their fruit.

[SIGN] Bill said:" I see this person has already been banned,so it look like we do not have to answer the question"[/SIGN]

I’d like it if you’d answer the statements. Seems reasonable to me. Please don’t answer it by stating the sins of protestants. I know how sinful we all are, including ALL humans except the God/Man.

 

[AwGusTeen]

I could quote scholars that are fundamental with actual high regard in the fundamental evangelical world that would oppose the Catholic arguments, which would prove nothing. Would you give authority to someone you do not know? Then why would I. snip…

Masters:
Here’s a simple question for you. How is it that, on the one hand, you read and accept as inspired and authoritative the canon of the New Testament as declared by the Catholic Church, yet on the other hand you deny the authority of that very same Church? It seems as though you have something of a dichotomy there.

 

[Dokimas]

Hello Dokimas, Hello, ProdigalSon. Happy New Year.

The same, fallible, men who wrote scriptures, were in authority over His Church. Then the fallible men of the Church defined the canon of scriptures. What we have is a beginning of ‘fallible’ men making decisions on the ‘infallible’ written word, written through ‘faulty’ men. Agreed.

We have seen the faults of men of the Church continously pointed out, yet faulty men were chosen by Christ. Do you not think that Christ knew all men who succeeded those He ordained would be faulty as well? Sure. The question is, were all those that ‘succeeded’ the original church leaders picked by God?

The Church has not been destroyed, as you speak of Israel. It has been in existence for over 2000 years now. ** Correct**. Where we’d disagreed is whether or not the CC is that church.

Let’s, once again, look at what Christ taught about the Israelites, that were the authority in the Temple. The Temple was the way to God through the old covenant. The Church is the way to God through the new covenant. **Disagree. Jesus is the Way. ** Please don’t confuse this as the Church before Christ I don’t, because Christ is the only way to God. Don’t be confused thinking the CC has replaced Israel. Christ is the only begotten Son of the Father with the Holy Spirit, ONE God. Agreed.

Mat 23:1 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to his disciples,
Mat 23:2 Saying: The scribes and the Pharisees have sitten on the chair of Moses.
Mat 23:3 All things therefore whatsoever they shall say to you, observe and do: but according to their works do ye not. For they say, and do not.

Can you not see Christ’s confidence that God can protect His truth, even through faulty men? Agreed; I’ve made that point many times.

He did not teach to disregard those of authority then and He never said to disregard the Church He built. One in His church ‘penned’ these words, ‘Looking unto Jesus the Author and Finisher’ of our faith. Notice he didn’t say, ‘Looking unto Jesus’ church’.
The keys to the kingdom of heaven were given to Peter, the leader of His Church, a mortal man that would eventually die. Was it intended that the keys go with him in his death, or remain with the Church he led through Apostolic succession? Is there any writing of Peter that reveals to whom he passed those keys to? If not, why should I accept the claims of the CC that they got the keys?

Bind and loose on earth and it will be bound and loosed in heaven…it’s very clear if you don’t try to read anything else into it. I don’t; I think the CC has, though. I’m not saying that you are, but it seems a lot of Protestants have had to come up with creative justifications for starting other Churches and therefore had to read other things into certain scriptures that clearly support Catholic teachings. As some have pointed out, there are some of the teachings of the CC that don’t seem to have good Bible basis for them. Don’t worry, I’m sure I have some of those beliefs myself.

 

[Teneas]

I’d like it if you’d answer the statements. Seems reasonable to me. Please don’t answer it by stating the sins of protestants. I know how sinful we all are, including ALL humans except the God/Man.

I think he was banned due to such statements over and over. They have been answered many times. To deny the faith of the early fathers, and the Church that, through God, granted you the Bible, is to deny that faith in which you have now. Sins are in every man, you really wish to discuss bad things that have happened only in the Catholic Church, but not those parallel in your church?

 

[Dokimas]

I think he was banned due to such statements over and over. They have been answered many times. To deny the faith of the early fathers, and the Church that, through God, granted you the Bible, is to deny that faith in which you have now. ** I only deny that your church is that church. The rest is as you say.** Sins are in every man, you really wish to discuss bad things that have happened only in the Catholic Church, but not those parallel in your church? I already said, in so many words, I and any church I go to will be sinful. Will you admit your church is sinful and being so, how can anyone accept the ideas like, ‘we’re the only true church’?

BTW, my statement was more directed to Bill than about getting an answer. I really don’t care for the answer, as you say we’re all sinners.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Dokimas, do me a small favor please. Respond outside of the quote box, it makes it much easier to respond to all issues and points raised.

The question is, were all those that ‘succeeded’ the original church leaders picked by God?

Through the Holy Spirit guidance, yes, none of which were sinless. We’re still talking about ‘faulty’ men. Remember my examples with the Apostles? When did the Apostles question His teachings? When did Judas betray Him? When did Peter deny Him? When did Thomas doubt Him? It was after they had been ordained and appointed by Him, wasn’t it? The same way men of the Church fall after their ordination or appointment.

Let’s, once again, look at what Christ taught about the Israelites, that were the authority in the Temple. The Temple was the way to God through the old covenant. The Church is the way to God through the new covenant. Disagree. Jesus is the Way. Please don’t confuse this as the Church before Christ I don’t, because Christ is the only way to God. Don’t be confused thinking the CC has replaced Israel. Christ is the only begotten Son of the Father with the Holy Spirit, ONE God. Agreed.

I apologize for not making my thoughts clearer. I was attempting to show that in those times, the people went to the Temple, which was the authority as plainly demonstrated in Jesus’ teaching, and in today’s times they go to Church, which is also an authority and started by Christ.

I believe the Church is the ‘new Israel’. Just as the Jews were God’s chosen people, Christians are now God’s chosen people.

One in His church ‘penned’ these words, ‘Looking unto Jesus the Author and Finisher’ of our faith. Notice he didn’t say, ‘Looking unto Jesus’ church’.

Here’s what another man of the Church wrote…

Col 1:18 He is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning, the first-born from the dead, that in everything he might be pre-eminent.

We cannot expect each and every person to write to everyone’s satisfaction. The separation in statements becomes an argument of semantics, in my honest opinion.

Is there any writing of Peter that reveals to whom he passed those keys to? If not, why should I accept the claims of the CC that they got the keys?

What other Church was there for 1500 years? Surely other Churches would have something documented. Even newly began Churches have believers who pen their thoughts.

Peter did not write about who those keys passed too, because he was dead when the keys passed. It’s that simple.

As some have pointed out, there are some of the teachings of the CC that don’t seem to have good Bible basis for them. Don’t worry, I’m sure I have some of those beliefs myself.

Even though you qualified the statement with the words ‘good’ Bible basis, it still boils down to interpretation, whether you agree with the interpretation or not. The Bible teaches us to hold to traditions, and demonstrates oral tradition, yet many Protestants strictly reject any tradition, oral or otherwise. Just as God protected His truth in written fashion, He is an all powerful God that can do the same for His oral truth.

 

[Carlan]

Sure He can and does and will. He does it His way not your way, not my way, not your church’s way and not my church’s way.

Sure he did Dok, Plain as the nose on your face. He chose Peter as the rock, the head man on earth to head it all after he did the will of the Father and left us. You got to remember it is his Church and I don’t know about you but I’m a part of it.Carlan

 

[Teneas]

BTW, my statement was more directed to Bill than about getting an answer. I really don’t care for the answer, as you say we’re all sinners.

I will freely admit that there are people in my Church that are sinful. In fact EVERYONE in my Church is sinful. The Church itself, in what she teaches, believes, enforces…is not.

 

[Dokimas]

Dokimas, do me a small favor please. Respond outside of the quote box, it makes it much easier to respond to all issues and points raised.
QUOTE]​

[SIGN]Col 1:18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.[/SIGN]

How does Col 1:18 contradict my verse from Hebrews 12? Actually it agrees with my point: Jesus is pre-emminant in everything.​

I believe the Church is the ‘new Israel’. Just as the Jews were God’s chosen people, Christians are now God’s chosen people.

 

[Dokimas]

I will freely admit that there are people in my Church that are sinful. In fact EVERYONE in my Church is sinful. The Church itself, in what she teaches, believes, enforces…is not.

It’s teaching like this that I can’t embrace.

 

[Dokimas]

Sure he did Dok, Plain as the nose on your face. He chose Peter as the rock, the head man on earth to head it all after he did the will of the Father and left us. You got to remember it is his Church and I don’t know about you but I’m a part of it.Carlan

It’s teaching like this, not found in the Bible, I find hard to embrace.

 

[Teneas]

It’s teaching like this that I can’t embrace.

You have made that clear man. You still trying to learn what we believe or actually trying to win others over to your side? You aren’t here to really learn what we believe as far as I can tell. Just simply to state your “facts” about what you believe.

Not being mean of course, just simply trying to figure out what you hope to obtain from your time here is all.

 

[Teneas]

It’s teaching like this that I can’t embrace.

I would also ask this:

If a family teaches to be kind to others, take care of the needy, and all the other “good” things that are to be done in life. Lets say that members of that family sometimes do things that are not considered “good”, so to speak, does that make that family wrong for their teachings?

 

[Carlan]

It’s teaching like this, not found in the Bible, I find hard to embrace.

You can spin it any way you please , I believe it the way it says. Plain and simple I believe Sacred Tradion, the Bible and the Magisterium standing true and firm together guided by the Holy Spirit from now until eternity. Jesus said so.Carlan

Oh God, be gracious and bless us all and let your light shine upon us

 

[Dokimas]

You have made that clear man. You still trying to learn what we believe or actually trying to win others over to your side? You aren’t here to really learn what we believe as far as I can tell. Just simply to state your “facts” about what you believe.

Not being mean of course, just simply trying to figure out what you hope to obtain from your time here is all.

Fellowship and friendship. Jesus said they (none believers) would know Him by our love (brothers and sisters in Christ) one for another. While we’re arguing who or what is the church Jesus founded, there are many heading to a Christless eternity.​

Also, maybe to set straight what some of your misunderstandings are about non-catholic Christians.​

BTW, I’ve only posted in the non-catholic part of this board.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

[SIGN]Col 1:18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.[/SIGN]

How does Col 1:18 contradict my verse from Hebrews 12? Actually it agrees with my point: Jesus is pre-emminant in everything.

You said, ‘…Notice he didn’t say, ‘Looking unto Jesus’ church’. I was giving an example where another man of the Church says Jesus is the head of the Church, which seems to indicate we should look to Jesus’ Church.​

Has God done away with Israel? Is Revelation about Israel or the church? What is Romans chapter 9 & 11 about?

Israel the state still exists. Believers of the old covenant still exist. That doesn’t mean there aren’t metaphorical examples in scriptures. Jesus is the rock, Peter is the rock, but are they really ‘rocks’? Not in reality, but metaphorically, yes.​

The church founded by Jesus and that existed for the first 1500 yrs was bigger than the CC (as we know it, most likely started in the 3rd or 4th century).

That appears to be a statement of someone who searches for ways to disagree that the Catholic Church existed since the beginning. Around 110AD, approximately the same time John wrote ‘Revelations’, St. Ignatius wrote the following:

Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.

St. Ignatius doesn’t appear to be introducing a new name for the Church, he states it in a way that the term already exists.

Did Constantine legalize Christianity? Yes. Did Constantine make Christainity the ‘state’ religion? Yes. But because it’s clearly the Catholic Church, people from different Churches started much later in history, have to demonize the rise of the legal Catholic Church.​

Any tradition, oral or written, should be rejected as inspired, if it is in any in contradiction to the Bible or taught that one must hold to that and to Bible teachings, IMO.[/qoute]

Ok, but we have to rely on someone’s interpretation of scriptures to do so. Just in this one thread, it quite evident there are interpretational differences of scriptures being posted. Now, we have to turn to an authority to do so.

You and I have had this discussion before. Catholic traditions/doctrines, oral and written, come from an interpretation of scriptures, whether you agree with the interpretation or not.
Dokimas;6149349:

I though he ordained his accessor? BTW, there’s no evidence that the early church looked to Peter as their leader (after pentacost, which didn’t make him the leader).

The Church was new and growing and it was a very long time ago. Somethings were not documented and somethings were lost. It is believed that Peter appointed St. Ignatius.

Peter has been the leader of the Catholic Church since it’s beginning and early Church fathers wrote such. I am posting some of those writings in my next post.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

**Clement of Rome

Accept our counsel and you will have nothing to regret. . . . If anyone disobeys the things which have been said by him [Jesus] through us, let them know that they will involve themselves in no small danger. We, however, shall be innocent of this sin and will pray with entreaty and supplication that the Creator of all may keep unharmed the number of his elect (Letter to the Corinthians 58:2, 59:1[A.D. 95]).
Ignatius of Antioch
You [the See of Rome] have envied no one, but others have you taught. I desire only that what you have enjoined in your instructions may remain in force (Epistle to the Romans 3:1 [A.D. 110]).

Irenaeus

But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles. Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition (Against Heresies 3:3:2 [inter A.D. 180-190]).

Clement of Alexandria

[T]he blessed Peter, the chosen, the preeminent, the first among the disciples, for whom alone with himself the Savior paid the tribute [Matt. 17:27], quickly grasped and understood their meaning. And what does he say? “Behold, we have left all and have followed you” [Matt. 19:2 7, Mark 10:28] (Who is the Rich Man That is Saved? 21:3-5 [A.D. 200]).

Tertullian

[T]he Lord said to Peter, “On this rock I will build my Church, I have given you the keys of the kingdom of heaven [and] whatever you shall have bound or loosed on earth will be bound or loosed in heaven” [Matt. 16:18-19]. … Upon you, he says, I will build my Church; and I will give to you the keys, not to the Church; and whatever you shall have bound or you shall have loosed, not what they shall have bound or they shall have loosed (Modesty 21:9-10 [A.D. 220]).

Letter of Clement to James

Be it known to you, my lord, that Simon [Peter], who, for the sake of the true faith, and the most sure foundation of his doctrine, was set apart to be the foundation of the Church, and for this end was by Jesus himself, with his truthful mouth, named Peter, the first-fruits of our Lord, the first of the apostles; to whom first the Father revealed the Son; whom the Christ, with good reason, blessed; the called, and elect (Letter of Clement to James 2 [A.D, 221]).

Cyprian

With a false bishop appointed for themselves by heretics, they dare even to set sail and carry letters from schismatics and blasphemers to the Chair of Peter and to the principal church [at Rome], in which sacerdotal unity has its source" (Epistle to Cornelius [Bishop of Rome] 59:14 [A.D. 252]).
The Lord says to Peter: “I say to you,” he says, “that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church” . . . On him he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was , but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all [the apostles] are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church? (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4 [A.D. 251]).
Cyril of Jerusalem
In the power of the same Holy Spirit, Peter, both the chief of the apostles and the keeper of the keys of the kingdom of heaven, in the name of Christ healed Aeneas the paralytic at Lydda, which is now called Diospolis [Acts 9 ;3 2-3 4] (Catechetical Lectures 17;27 [A.D. 350])

The above was written prior to the canon of the New Testament being defined. How early do you want? The New Testament letters and epistles were not written until 50 to 110 years after the death and resurrection of Christ.**

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

There is much historic documentation that Catholics use to support their views, yet rarely do you see any type documentations presented to support a Protestant view and then there are interpretational differences, just as there are with scriptures.

It’s one thing to come here and express an ‘opinion’ of what one personally believes or doesn’t believe, it’s quite another to present documentation. If those ‘other’ Churches existed prior to the 1500s, where is the documentation?

When Catholics use scriptures, they make an effort to explain their interpretation, point by point.

As the discussion has progressed, some have lost their composure and been banned, others have quit posting in the thread without stating any reason as to why and some have stated they will no longer discuss the issues.

I invite anyone to read back through the thread and see who’s providing scriptures, with explanations, and documentation vs. those who state personal beliefs…