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Randy_Carson
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No, Jesus founded the one Church upon Peter (Aramaic Kepha) himself, and not upon Peter’s confession.
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Dokimas said
They say very clearly “You are Rock and upon this Rock I will build My Church” … nothing about his profession of faith or his eternal faith or any faith at all -
Though I do not discount that Peter was a man of faith and had faith in Jesus and that he believed with allhis heart and soul that Jesus was in fact God, the Messiah, the Savior of the World …
The Church [built by Christ - the Master builder] is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth … now Truth is not error and Being the Master Builder - I trust that the Church is ‘visible’ ergo knowable, findable and joinable … or else the Promise of Christ is nothing and He is not Who He said … But Jesus is the Messiah the One Promised of Old and the Fountain of All Truth …
I am glad you hold Mary in High Esteem how sad that you do not embrace your place in the family of God … Jesus is afterall our Brother, the First Born and we share in the Kingdom, heirs to the Promise, we are children of the Most High - we pray "Our Father … "
A ‘saying’ is not a firm foundation upon which to build - whether the words be true or not … and I m sorry but neither my King James, Oxford or NIV [in fact any bible I have read] reads … "Blessed are You Simon Son of John You are Rock and upon this Truth of your witness I will build my Church … "
They say very clearly “You are Rock and upon this Rock I will build My Church” … nothing about his profession of faith or his eternal faith or any faith at all -
Though I do not discount that Peter was a man of faith and had faith in Jesus and that he believed with allhis heart and soul that Jesus was in fact God, the Messiah, the Savior of the World …
I agree that Jesus will preserve the Church - but the Church has to be known to the believersI, recognizable and accessable - so that the Christian can be taught …
Yes, he promised when he gave the “Keys” of the kingdom to Peter … what is bound on earth is bound in heaven and what is loosed on earth will be loosed in heaven … the promise that the gates of hell - would not prevail over the Church … I take Jesus at His Word - the Words of everlasting life … He built His Church to bring the Good News of Salvation to all the World and to all men … it is through the Church that we come to our relationship with Christ - Remember - “Where two or more …” it is not written that it is where a single person … We are to hold fast to the Traditions - whether received by Word or Letter …
The Church [built by Christ - the Master builder] is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth … now Truth is not error and Being the Master Builder - I trust that the Church is ‘visible’ ergo knowable, findable and joinable … or else the Promise of Christ is nothing and He is not Who He said … But Jesus is the Messiah the One Promised of Old and the Fountain of All Truth …
I am glad you hold Mary in High Esteem how sad that you do not embrace your place in the family of God … Jesus is afterall our Brother, the First Born and we share in the Kingdom, heirs to the Promise, we are children of the Most High - we pray "Our Father … "
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Keep working on learning the quote feature 
I am not sure what your point is … Bishops ordain men to the permanent deaconate, the transitional diaconate and the priesthood. so I do not believe that anyone said that Paul and Timothy did not ordain … In fact just as today - there is a criteria - a standard by which men are selected to serve in the church …
I told you, the Bishops, the leadership of the Church select the successor just as we see in Acts and as any initial person who wats to serve the Church is selected. They gather,pray for guidance and shoose a person for the office in question …
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Dokimas
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You think that a saying which is the Word of God, an eternal truth, can’t be a solid foundation, yet you think a sinner can be? Strange. What was the truth you think isn’t solid enough? “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the Living God.” That’s a truth to build a church on!!
- The same faith Peter was going to deny in a few days. And yet the Truth of Jesus being the Christ, the Son of the Living God is the only immovable foundation upon which the church could be built.
**Agreed./**COLOR]
I agree that Jesus will preserve the Church - but the Church has to be known to the believersI, recognizable and accessable - so that the Christian can be taught …
When did I get kicked out?
Far more than our Brother
the Only Begotten; we are adopted into the family, not born into it.
Ro 9:33 As it is written: “Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock (Petra) of offense, And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” Who is this speaking about, Peter?
Mt 16:18 "And I also say to you that you are Peter (Petros), and on this rock (petra) I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
1Co 10:4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock (Petra) that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.
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Randy_Carson
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The Apostle John discipled a man known today as Polycarp of Smyrna. Polycarp, in turn, discipled a man known as Irenaeus of Lyons. Around 180 AD, Irenaeus recorded the names of the leaders of the early church beginning with Peter down to his own day; thus, we have the following from a second-century (pre-Constantinian) Christian with impeccable credentials:
"3The blessed Apostles [Peter and Paul], having founded and built up the Church [of Rome], they handed over the office of the episcopate to Linus. Paul makes mention of this Linus in the Epistle to Timothy. To him succeeded Anencletus; and after him, in the third place from the Apostles, Clement was chosen from the episcopate. He had seen the blessed Apostles and was acquainted with them. It might be said that He still heard the echoes of the preaching of the Apostles, and had their traditions before his eyes. And not only he, for there were many still remaining who had been instructed by the Apostles. In the time of Clement, no small dissension having arisen among the brethren in Corinth, the Church in Rome sent a very strong letter to the Corinthians, exhorting them to peace and renewing their faith. To this Clement, Evaristus succeeded; and Alexander succeeded Evaristus. Then, sixth after the Apostles, Sixtus was appointed; after him, Telesphorus, who also was gloriously martyred. Then Hyginus; after him, Pius; and after him, Anicetus. Soter succeeded Anicetus, and now, in the twelfth place after the Apostles, the lot of the episcopate has fallen to Eleutherus. In this order, and by the teaching of the Apostles handed down in the Church, the preaching of the truth has come down to us." (Against Heresies 3.3.3, [A.D. 180])
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Randy_Carson
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Jesus is the only begotten Son of God and the first-born over all creation.
Colossians 1:15
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
You are confused by the metaphors…the following will help:
To support their denial of Jesus’ establishment of Peter as the head of the Church, non-Catholics frequently cite other scripture passages in which Jesus is called the “chief cornerstone” and the apostles collectively being described as foundation stones. These arguments are based upon a misunderstanding of the use of metaphors within the pages of scripture. Author Stephen Ray, himself a former Evangelical and convert to Catholicism, addressed this problem in his book, Upon This Rock:
“In this metaphorical description, Jesus himself could not be the foundation, because in this illustration he presents himself as the builder. The following is very important. In Scripture Jesus is variously depicted as the foundation (1 Cor. 3:11), the builder (Mt. 16:18), the cornerstone (Acts 4:11), and the temple itself (Rev. 21:22). We also see the apostles and/or believers as the foundation (Eph. 2:20, Rev. 21:14), the builders (1 Cor. 3:10), the stones, lithos, not petra (1 Pet. 2:5), the building (1 Cor. 3:9), and the temple (Eph. 2:21). Many illustrations are used to explain various aspects of the Church. One cannot simply substitute one descriptive figure of speech for another in any one illustration thereby mixing metaphors. It does great violence to the textual illustration itself and is a good example of roughshod “proof-texting”, wrongly “dividing the word of truth” (2 Tim. 2:15). The Bible does not set up a dichotomy—either Jesus or Peter; rather, it presents us with both Jesus and Peter as foundation stones. Jesus is establishing the man who will be the focal point of unity within the Church, the foundation. He who builds upon sand has a structure that crumbles (Mt. 7:24-27). Jesus builds his Church upon the rock of his choice, and, by his protection, the Church has stood the test of time. The powers of hell have failed to destroy or corrupt her” (Stephen Ray, Upon this Rock, [San Francisco: Ignatius Press, 1999], 36.)
In this same book, Ray also cites Protestant George Salmon, author of The Infallibility of the Church which he wrote to undermine the teachings of the Catholic Church. On the matter of metaphorical usage, Salmon wrote at length:
“It is undoubtedly the doctrine of Scripture that Christ is the only foundation [of the Church]: “other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ” (1 Cor. 3:11). Yet we must remember that the same metaphor may be used to illustrate different truths, and so, according to circumstances, may have different significations. The same Paul who has called Christ the only foundation, tells his Ephesian converts (2:20):—“Ye are built upon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone.” And in like manner we read (Rev. 21:14):—“The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them the names of the twelve Apostles of the Lamb.” How is it that there can be no other foundation but Christ, and yet that the Apostles are spoken of as foundations? Plainly, because the metaphor is used with different applications. Christ alone is that foundation, from being joined to which the whole building of the Church derives its unity and stability, and gains strength to defy all the assaults of hell. But, in the same manner as any human institution is said to be founded by those men to whom it owes its origin, so we may call those men the foundation of the Church whom God honoured by using them as His instruments in the establishment of it; who were themselves laid as the first living stones in that holy temple, and on whom the other stones of that temple were laid; for it was on their testimony that others received the truth, so that our faith rests on theirs; and (humanly speaking) it is because they believed that we believe. So, again, in like manner, we are forbidden to call anyone on earth our Father, “for one is our Father which is in heaven.” And yet, in another sense, Paul did not scruple to call himself the spiritual father of those whom he had begotten in the Gospel. You see, then, that the fact that Christ is called the rock, and that on Him the Church is built, is no hindrance to Peter’s also being, in a different sense, called rock, and being said to be the foundation of the Church; so that I consider there is no ground for the fear entertained by some, in ancient and in modern times, that, by applying the words personally to Peter, we should infringe on the honour due to Christ alone.” (George Salmon, The Infallibility of the Church [London: John Murray, 1914], 338-339).
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No one kicked you out - you said Mary was not your mother as in “not mine”
Which is sad because she could teach you - by her example [as all good Mothers do] how to love Jesus and follow Him
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Masters_Servant
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As I told you on the other thread; we have no dialogue because you are not interested in dialogue, just as Prod Son 1 has no interest. Both of you have an obvious agenda that is not based on Jesus second commandment.
Please do not post to me; I will not respond to you. May God bless you according to His purpose for you.
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Dokimas
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No one kicked you out - you said Mary was not your mother as in “not mine”
Which is sad because she could teach you - by her example [as all good Mothers do] how to love Jesus and follow Him
Actually, Mary’s life teaches quite well. No where in the Bible does it say Mary is the mother of us all.
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Masters_Servant
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It is illogical, given the assumption that the belief is the church is based on the foundation of Peter and the other Apostles and they were sinful and Peter even was rebuke by Paul for what he was teaching, which amounts to sin, then logic would assume that the church built on a sinner(s) will also be sinful even guided by the Holy Spirit. Which from my own experience in the church I attend, we have this admission from the leadership to the general congregation. The Holy Spirit wrote the Bible through Jewish fisherman, a Jewish Pharisee and a couple of others and even Paul near the end of his life called himself a wretch. I’m trying to understand the theology of Catholics, but I am having some difficulty here and perhaps this is not the place to find out, but I will give it some more time and hopefully come to a fuller understanding.
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Masters_Servant
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May I ask a question of you? Do you and your church believe the Bible is the Word of God? If so, then how can the Word of God and a “magisterium” be on equal footing without having a divine and or infallible human nature, like the Bible? I don’t understand that.You can spin it any way you please , I believe it the way it says. Plain and simple I believe Sacred Tradion, the Bible and the Magisterium standing true and firm together guided by the Holy Spirit from now until eternity. Jesus said so.Carlan
Oh God, be gracious and bless us all and let your light shine upon us
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Carlan
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The Bible was put together by Spirit filled holy men, successors of the Holy Apostles who were commissioned by our Lord Jesus to hand on revelation. The magisterium is the teaching authority of His Holy Church, the Body of Christ, and the magisterium is made up of the Holy Spirit Guided Vicar of Christ on this earth , the present Pope Benedict.and all his Spirit guided Bishops. Thank you for the Question, I love it. I do love passing on the Truth of our Lords revelation. He is our Bridegroom and Catholic Answers is part of his Bride the Catholic Church.
., Oh God be gracious and bless us and let your light shine upon us, Amen. Carlan
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Teneas
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Bumping this for Dokimas, as he must have missed it before and didn’t get a chance to answer.
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Teneas
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Then stop arguing and start listening.
I honestly don’t care much about my misunderstandings of non-Catholics. May sound harsh, but until you non-Catholic Christians can pull together and actually decide for once, with unity, what you believe, I know full well there is little truth in what you speak. Not saying you don’t know Christ, as I am sure most do that are Christian. Just saying I can’t see the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit up in heaven debating doctrine, and scripture. They are united, unlike those like yourself and others that claim the same.
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Prodigal_Son1
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How did a ‘saying’ receive the keys to the kingdom of heaven and the authority to bind and loose on earth?
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Prodigal_Son1
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The only agenda I have is to share the Catholic faith on a Catholic forum. As far as judging us guilty of breaking commandments, that seems to be another authority you’ve assumed upon yourself.
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rovimax
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In Acts1:15…ff, 2Tim 2:1-2, this is what the CC called Apostollic sucession. From Apostle Peter to our present Pope Benedict XVI the CC have documents supporting the claim.
There is a book ‘‘Upon this Rock’’ by Stepehen Ray and Some Articles in ‘‘On this Rock’’ Magazine regarding the Papacy and Peter. You can find them on this site. Those references are well written and easier to understand.
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YADA
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Well you interpret Scripture in odd ways [IMHO] For example in your mind;
“you are Rock and upon this rock I will build my Church”
becomes
“You are Rock and upon your confession I will build my church”
This is where Jesus gives us His Mother … who also is present at the birth of the Church Pentecost …
Jesus says from the Cross:
“Woman behold your Son” and then to the Apostle Whom he loved
“Son behold your Mother and from that day he took her to himself”
John stands at the cross - representing all believers - all who are beloved by Jesus - he represents you and me and the Church … And the passage is more accurately translated took him to himself then to his 'home or house" which is an addiion and slightly changes the meaning according to my Scripture Professor [a Lutheran by the way] which is to say he embraced her as his mother - just not as an obligation to provide care in the absence of Jesus …
But you will say 'that is not what it means" … however, your 2000 year removed interpretation carries little weight with me because Scripture tells me that the Church is the Pillar and Foundaiton of Truth … not the “Bible” and not Christian A who was inspired by the Holy Spirit to a different conclussion or Christan B who has a slightly different take [also inspired by the Holy Spirit] or Christian C whose Hoy Spirit provided another take altogether
You choose to "interpret’ scriptures outside of the Church that Jesus founded, outside of the historical understanding, removed from the culture of the 1st century Jewish and Christians that is your decision …
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