Who was the Rock in Matthew 16:18?

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I’ve seen some in this discussion argue that Christ was the foundation and not the Apostles. Today, in another discussion, I came across another verse that applied to that specific point.

Eph 2:20 Built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone:
Eph 2:21 In whom all the building, being framed together, groweth up into an holy temple in the Lord.


It seems verse 20 states what we have been attempting to get across…
Interesting for it says that the foundation of the church is all the apostles and prophets. An earlier verse is talking about the One Body of Christ and against those that would exclude others.

Ephesians 2
11Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (that done in the body by the hands of men)— 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world

It does not say built on the foundation of the Pope or just Peter, Peter not even singled out:

Ephesians 2

20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

Actually gives more support for the verse When Jesus is talking to all the disciples:

Matthew 18
18"I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
 
This sounds very much as if the Catholic Church and Pope are saying that no one can get into Heaven without going through the locked gate which only the Catholic Church holds the Keys to.
There is indeed no salvation outside the Catholic Church. We can discuss this further to be able to fully digest what this means.

What is* your* interpretation of Matt 16:19? What keys do you believe Jesus was giving to Peter? What was he binding and loosing?
 
There is indeed no salvation outside the Catholic Church. We can discuss this further to be able to fully digest what this means.

What is* your* interpretation of Matt 16:19? What keys do you believe Jesus was giving to Peter? What was he binding and loosing?
So the CC over rides what Jesus told us about salvation?
 
Ok so Catholics believe that Peter gave the Keys to the Apostles and not Jesus as in Matthew 18?
What key is mentioned in Matt 18?
This is actually how we call and vote on ordained Pastors for our churches, if I understand correctly Priests are assigned to the parish.
Not sure what you mean here.
 
Never ever ever will the CC override what Jesus told us about salvation! :eek:
And, you can’t know what Jesus told us about salvation as you weren’t there to hear him speak. The only way you know what Jesus taught about salvation is because CC told you so; thus, your question is a nonsensical one.
 
And, you can’t know what Jesus told us about salvation as you weren’t there to hear him speak. The only way you know what Jesus taught about salvation is because CC told you so; thus, your question is a nonsensical one.
So what does this have to do with salvation. I don’t think the CC wrote the Bible they just put what Scriptures they thought good to be a part of the Bible. So I don’t know where or what you are saying. Once again explain please.
 
There is indeed no salvation outside the Catholic Church. We can discuss this further to be able to fully digest what this means.

What is* your* interpretation of Matt 16:19? What keys do you believe Jesus was giving to Peter? What was he binding and loosing?
What do you mean by " We can discuss this futher to be able to fully digest what this means" if you won’t discuss what it means?
 
So what does this have to do with salvation. I don’t think the CC wrote the Bible they just put what Scriptures they thought good to be a part of the Bible. So I don’t know where or what you are saying. Once again explain please.
Yep–they “just put what Scriptures they thought good to be a part of the Bible”–just like you say. * Infallibly they did this*, kevin, unless you want to protest against the Catholic Church’s decision and consider the Gospel of the Nazoreans or the Didache inspired?

The only reason you know what Jesus taught about salvation is because the CC told you he said that.

St. Augustine said, “I would not believe the Gospels were it not for the Catholic Church”.

For a wonderful discussion about “outside the church there is no salvation”, see this thread.
 
What do you mean by " We can discuss this futher to be able to fully digest what this means" if you won’t discuss what it means?
Why are you saying I won’t discuss what it means? :confused:

What exactly don’t you understand about it? I’d be happy to discuss any questions regarding this!
 
Thank you for the answers, I do just a few more questions.

This sounds very much as if the Catholic Church and Pope are saying that no one can get into Heaven without going through the locked gate which only the Catholic Church holds the Keys to. Is this the case?

The following doesn’t mention Keys, just faith in Jesus:

John 10
7Therefore Jesus said again, "I tell you the truth, I am the gate for the sheep. 8All who ever came before me were thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. 9I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.

What exactly does bind and loose mean to the Catholic?

see the catechism of the catholic church #553
Very interesting:

Isaiah 22
20 "In that day I will summon my servant, Eliakim son of Hilkiah. 21 I will clothe him with your robe and fasten your sash around him and hand your authority over to him. He will be a father to those who live in Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. 22 I will place on his shoulder the key to the house of David; what he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open. 23 I will drive him like a peg into a firm place; he will be a seat of honor for the house of his father. 24 All the glory of his family will hang on him: its offspring and offshoots—all its lesser vessels, from the bowls to all the jars.

25 “In that day,” declares the LORD Almighty, “the peg driven into the firm place will give way; it will be sheared off and will fall, and the load hanging on it will be cut down.” The LORD has spoken.

Ok so Catholics believe that Peter gave the Keys to the Apostles and not Jesus as in Matthew 18?

If the Pope believed that he alone held the Keys, and was infallible why wouldn’t he choose his successor, but I see that the College of Bishop also holds the Keys.

This is actually how we call and vote on ordained Pastors for our churches, if I understand correctly Priests are assigned to the parish.
 
There is indeed no salvation outside the Catholic Church. We can discuss this further to be able to fully digest what this means.

What is* your* interpretation of Matt 16:19? What keys do you believe Jesus was giving to Peter? What was he binding and loosing?
Once again will you discuss futher so I can be able to fully digest what you mean?
You keep avioding my question and the statement that you made.
 
Yep–they “just put what Scriptures they thought good to be a part of the Bible”–just like you say. * Infallibly they did this*, kevin, unless you want to protest against the Catholic Church’s decision and consider the Gospel of the Nazoreans or the Didache inspired?

The only reason you know what Jesus taught about salvation is because the CC told you he said that.

St. Augustine said, “I would not believe the Gospels were it not for the Catholic Church”.

For a wonderful discussion about “outside the church there is no salvation”, see this thread.
The CC didn’t tell me Jesus told me and once again the CC put the Bible together they did not write the Bible.

That would be St. Augustine’s opinion.
 
Once again will you discuss futher so I can be able to fully digest what you mean?
You keep avioding my question and the statement that you made.
for no salvation outside the church look at the catechism #846-848
 
Your name is really fun because I can summarize your long posts, stick your name in at random places, and wind up with a lightly condescending and somewhat snarky result.
to bad that you - as a protestant - are not more knowledgble about language and the meanings of words - which this thread illustrates very nicely. Then you woulld know what “YADA” means . Instead you use the same Seinfeld eduation with your theology … but that is what being a protestant will get you - bad theology and poor linguistical knowledge … your loss not mine …
Protestants don’t criticize Catholics for having a leader. We criticize your leadership for false claims to infallibility, among other things.
We don’t ask you to stop having leaders. We ask them to stop making those claims, and in lieu of that pipe dream, that you not believe things that aren’t actually true.
And you "know’ this infallibly of course … because you [as a protestant] ar your own ‘infallable pope’
No you aren’t. Any Protestant will gladly affirm over 90% of what you believe. You can start with the hypostatic union and the Trinity.
So - inquiring minds want to know why you want a 90% faith and not the 100% authentic Christian faith that comes to you from the first Christians and the Early Church Fathers to this day? … When you could have it all you choose a man made inferior imitation just authentic enough to give you a false sense of your own ability to decide what is an authentic faith infalibly" … how sad for you - you are so certain that we Cathloics are ‘wrong’ … that our beleifs are a ‘pipe dream’ … what was your name before you became pope?
I don’t believe Protestants are denying Catholics any liberties or freedoms, nor do we attempt to do so. We do reserve the right to pass honest judgment on any and all truth-claims made by your leadership, though, and if we disagree, we will say so.
You have the right to assert a belief, a difference of opinion … but ‘judgement’ …I leave Jesus to pass judgement …
Do you have that freedom?
God gave us freedom of choice … the choice to choose God or choose evil … the choice to follow him or turn away … we can follow the Church of Jesus Christ, founded on the Rock of Peter … the Church that is “the Pillar and Foundation of Truth” the Church that we are supposed to listen to when confronted with our sins … as in " … if they don’t listen to two or three, then take it to the Church and if they don’t listen to the Church, treat them as you would a tax collector or … " So yes, we are free to listen or not … to chose life or death …
From the general tone of this post, though, I’ve come to the tentative conclusion that you were never a Protestant, you have a very low regard for Protestantism, and you can’t fathom why anyone would prefer that over what you were born into. Is that an accurate assessment?
Well, sorry to disappoint you - born into a baptist family [some with Masonic affiliations too] … Baptized Church of Christ. The Church of Christ faction that did not believe use of piano in worship to be ‘evil’ - though I have attended both - Most of my adopted dad’s family was the ‘acapella’ Church of Christ - but the town I lieved in when I was baptized only had the apostate Chruch of Christ [my father’s opinion - not mine ;)] And many of my Baptist and Church of Christ relatives are some of the most wonderful Christians you will ever meet …
If you’re really wondering why a Catholic would want to become a Protestant, you could always ask one. If you aren’t that interested in knowing, don’t ask. How does the saying go? Something like…if you don’t ask, we won’t tell? I think it’s something along those lines.
I work with non-christians and protestants in our parish RCIA and have for 15 years or so … I know the reasons they become catholic christians. I also know the many the reasons why some - who go through the RCIA - do not enter into full communion with the Church … Sorry to spring it on you but the reasons are all fairly individual they may have a common theme but each walks their own journey of faith. During this timme - I have worked with over 500 individuals +/- and less then a handful have decided against it or - as it is for for some- take a little longer to make the decision - one gent said he was on the ‘five year plan’ ;)… I think he just liked coming every Wednesday evening to our formation sessions and was afraid we would not let him come if he was fully initiated - 😛 which of course was not the case!!!
 
The CC didn’t tell me Jesus told me and once again the CC put the Bible together they did not write the Bible.
Right. The CC told you that Jesus said we are saved by believing in Christ, by baptism, by proclaiming with our mouth, etc etc etc. *Unless you’re claiming that Jesus appeared *to you and told you you are saved, then you only know anything that Jesus told you because the CC declared it so (just like St. Augustine said)

If the CC had declared that the Protoevangelium of James were inspired you would be sitting here today telling me that Mary’s parents were Joachim and Anne. However, the reason you’re not saying that is because the CC decided that this ancient text was not inspired. 🤷
 
Yes I did and it seem that the Catholics on there say its through Jesus.
Well, yes, of course! There is no salvation without Jesus! He paid a debt he didn’t owe because we owed a debt we couldn’t pay.

We do not serve a decapitated Christ. Jesus is the head; the Church is his body. No salvation without the Church, his body.

I think I see your confusio now. You seem to be creating a false dichotomy–like it’s either Jesus OR the Church. [SIGN]Like most Catholic answers, it’s not either/or. It’s both/and[/SIGN].
 
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