Who was the Rock in Matthew 16:18?

[Randy_Carson]

Who is this verse speaking of?

Rev 3:7 ¶ "And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write, ‘These things says He who is holy, He who is true, “He who has the key of David, He who opens and no one shuts, and shuts and no one opens”:

Jesus, of course. The king retains full authority and possession of the “key” even though He may delegate authority to the Royal Steward. After all, if the king were to walk into the room, none of his subjects would ignore him simply because the Royal Steward was present. However, in the king’s absence, the Royal Steward acts with the full authority of the King.

Since Jesus has ascended into heaven and is no longer physically present on earth, His Royal Steward acts on His behalf with His full authority.

 

[Dokimas]

Jesus, of course. The king retains full authority and possession of the “key” even though He may delegate authority to the Royal Steward. After all, if the king were to walk into the room, none of his subjects would ignore him simply because the Royal Steward was present. However, in the king’s absence, the Royal Steward acts with the full authority of the King.

Since Jesus has ascended into heaven and is no longer physically present on earth, His Royal Steward acts on His behalf with His full authority.

So then isn’t Is 22:22 is about Jesus and not Peter?

 

[mmmcounts]

Matthew 16:18-19 (New International Version)

18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

That’s not an accurate translation of what Jesus actually said. I typically point that out every time I see this passage used as a proof-text.

 

[tweetymom]

Hey tweetymom,

I already said that I could understand how you arrived at your interpretation and asked you to please explain how each individual believer has the authority to bind and loose. Are you going to respond and provide your interpretation on the context of the passage?

I have the power thru Jesus to bind satan and crush him.

 

[PRmerger]

I know you can’t think this way, but what if some of the teachings of the CC are wrong? As you stand before God, if He cares enough to show you that you were wrong, what will you say to Him? “Lord, it was that church you told me in the Bible that taught me that. * You can’t blame me for believing that*. I was obeying the church that said to obey it because it was the church that said You said that it couldn’t teach anything wrong.”

Indeed. That’s exactly what I would say, (with the exception of the “you can’t blame me for believing that”–that’s a little too cheeky for my taste!); and I would appeal to my Beloved with Heb 13:17 as well:

Obey your leaders and defer to them, for they keep watch over you and will have to give an account, that they may fulfill their task with joy and not with sorrow, for that would be of no advantage to you.

 

[PRmerger]

I have the power thru Jesus to bind satan and crush him.

And how do you receive the Holy Spirit and “loose” sins?

 

[Dokimas]

And how do you receive the Holy Spirit and “loose” sins?

Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to us and by forgiving.

 

[PRmerger]

Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to us and by forgiving.

I don’t understand, Dokimas.

You’ve received the Holy Spirit. You have the power to bind and loose. What’s an example of binding that you can do? What’s an example of loosing that you can do?

 

[Dokimas]

I don’t understand, Dokimas.

You’ve received the Holy Spirit. You have the power to bind and loose. What’s an example of binding that you can do? What’s an example of loosing that you can do?

Didn’t Jesus say He’d send us the Holy Spirit? Didn’t Paul say we are sealed by the Holy Spirit? Didn’t Jesus tell us to forgive 7 times 70 times?​

Isn’t the Gospel about being free from the bondage of sin? Aren’t we supposed to share the Gospel with others so they can be loosed from the power of sin and be bound by the Holy Spirit?

 

[Dokimas]

I don’t understand, Dokimas.

You’ve received the Holy Spirit. You have the power to bind and loose. What’s an example of binding that you can do? What’s an example of loosing that you can do?

What’s your relationship to the Holy Spirit? What does it mean to ‘bind and loose’? Who does it? How does it work?

 

[PRmerger]

Didn’t Jesus say He’d send us the Holy Spirit? Didn’t Paul say we are sealed by the Holy Spirit? Didn’t Jesus tell us to forgive 7 times 70 times?

Yes, of course Catholics believe we’re filled with the Holy Spirit.

I’m just wondering what your understanding is of how you as a Christian can bind and loose.

Can you give me an example of how you bind something?

What’s an example of you loosing something?​

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I have the power thru Jesus to bind satan and crush him.

You have the power? Then you use your power and Jesus bind and looses in heaven, or binds satan and crushes him in heaven? I thought satan wasn’t allowed back in heaven?

Sorry tweety, but that interpretation just doesn’t go with the full context of the passage.

**Mat 16:18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Mat 16:19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven. **

 

[Randy_Carson]

So then isn’t Is 22:22 is about Jesus and not Peter?

It’s not about Jesus at all. Read Is. 22 in full, and you will see that God is addressing Shebnah, a royal steward who lost his position in the royal court. The office was handed on to Eliakim, and this was symbolized by the keys of the kingdom.

 

[Randy_Carson]

That’s not an accurate translation of what Jesus actually said. I typically point that out every time I see this passage used as a proof-text.

My apologies. I typically use the NIV since it is so popular among Protestants. What translation should we use?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Didn’t Jesus say He’d send us the Holy Spirit? Didn’t Paul say we are sealed by the Holy Spirit? Didn’t Jesus tell us to forgive 7 times 70 times?​

Isn’t the Gospel about being free from the bondage of sin? Aren’t we supposed to share the Gospel with others so they can be loosed from the power of sin and be bound by the Holy Spirit?

Through Jesus telling Peter to forgive sins 7 times 70, we learn from the example to be forgiving, but Jesus had just spoke to them about the authority He was placing in His Church. He was explaining that when two or three of them were gathered together, they could have confidence to make ecumenical decisions, binding and loosing, because He would be in their mist.

Mat 18:17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.
Mat 18:18 Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven.
Mat 18:19 Again I say to you, that if two of you shall consent upon earth, concerning anything whatsoever they shall ask, it shall be done to them by my Father who is in heaven.
Mat 18:20 For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
Mat 18:21 Then came Peter unto him and said: Lord, how often shall my brother offend against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
Mat 18:22 Jesus saith to him: I say not to thee, till seven times; but till seventy times seven times.

 

[Dokimas]

It’s not about Jesus at all. Read Is. 22 in full, and you will see that God is addressing Shebnah, a royal steward who lost his position in the royal court. The office was handed on to Eliakim, and this was symbolized by the keys of the kingdom.

Randy: Jesus, of course. The king retains full authority and possession of the “key” even though He may delegate authority to the Royal Steward. After all, if the king were to walk into the room, none of his subjects would ignore him simply because the Royal Steward was present. However, in the king’s absence, the Royal Steward acts with the full authority of the King.

Since Jesus has ascended into heaven and is no longer physically present on earth, His Royal Steward acts on His behalf with His full authority.

Is it Jesus or is it not Jesus?

 

[Dokimas]

Through Jesus telling Peter to forgive sins 7 times 70, we learn from the example to be forgiving, but Jesus had just spoke to them about the authority He was placing in His Church. He was explaining that when two or three of them were gathered together, they could have confidence to make ecumenical decisions, binding and loosing, because He would be in their mist.

Mat 18:17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.
Mat 18:18 Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven.
Mat 18:19 Again I say to you, that if two of you shall consent upon earth, concerning anything whatsoever they shall ask, it shall be done to them by my Father who is in heaven.
Mat 18:20 For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
Mat 18:21 Then came Peter unto him and said: Lord, how often shall my brother offend against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
Mat 18:22 Jesus saith to him: I say not to thee, till seven times; but till seventy times seven times.

You quote and are correctly saying that Jesus is in our midst. Randy says the presence of Jesus is not here because His physical Body is not here. Something’s not matching up???

 

[Randy_Carson]

Is it Jesus or is it not Jesus?

The imagery of the keys in Matthew 16:18-19 alludes to Is. 22 in which the office of royal steward is passed from one man to another. This passage sheds light on the ongoing nature of the office symbolized by the keys - an office which Jesus re-established in His kingdom when He conferred the keys upon Peter, the first office holder.

 

[Dokimas]

Yes, of course Catholics believe we’re filled with the Holy Spirit.

I’m just wondering what your understanding is of how you as a Christian can bind and loose.

Can you give me an example of how you bind something?

What’s an example of you loosing something?​

Other than the verses quoted by ProdicalSon and what I’ve already stated, I have not further comment at this time on ‘binding’ or ‘loosing’.

 

[Randy_Carson]

You quote and are correctly saying that Jesus is in our midst. Randy says the presence of Jesus is not here because His physical Body is not here. Somethings not matching up???

That’s not what I said at all. I said that “two or three” do not constitute the Church.