Who was the Rock in Matthew 16:18?

[Prodigal_Son1]

You quote and are correctly saying that Jesus is in our midst. Randy says the presence of Jesus is not here because His physical Body is not here. Somethings not matching up???

Jesus is, spiritually, in the midst of His believers, but that’s not the context of the passage I provided. He was not speaking to multitudes, He was speaking to those He placed in authority over His Church. He explained how they could bind and loose, when two or three of them were together, because He would be in their midst spiritually. Physically, in a perfected body, our Lord is in heaven.

**Mat 18:17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.
Mat 18:18 Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven.
Mat 18:19 Again I say to you, that if two of you shall consent upon earth, concerning anything whatsoever they shall ask, it shall be done to them by my Father who is in heaven.
Mat 18:20 For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
Mat 18:21 Then came Peter unto him and said: Lord, how often shall my brother offend against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
Mat 18:22 Jesus saith to him: I say not to thee, till seven times; but till seventy times seven times. **

 

[Dokimas]

That’s not what I said at all. I said that “two or three” do not constitute the Church.

I didn’t say you said this; that’s not what I was referring to; I’ll repost the comment.​

[SIGN]Randy: Jesus, of course. The king retains full authority and possession of the “key” even though He may delegate authority to the Royal Steward. After all, if the king were to walk into the room, none of his subjects would ignore him simply because the Royal Steward was present. However, in the king’s absence, the Royal Steward acts with the full authority of the King.

Since Jesus has ascended into heaven and is no longer physically present on earth, His Royal Steward acts on His behalf with His full authority. [/SIGN]

 

[Dokimas]

Jesus is, spiritually, in the midst of His believers, but that’s not the context of the passage I provided. He was not speaking to multitudes, He was speaking to those He placed in authority over His Church. He explained how they could bind and loose, when two or three of them were together, because He would be in their midst spiritually. Physically, in a perfected body, our Lord is in heaven.

Mat 18:17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.
Mat 18:18 Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven.
Mat 18:19 Again I say to you, that if two of you shall consent upon earth, concerning anything whatsoever they shall ask, it shall be done to them by my Father who is in heaven.
Mat 18:20 For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
Mat 18:21 Then came Peter unto him and said: Lord, how often shall my brother offend against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
Mat 18:22 Jesus saith to him: I say not to thee, till seven times; but till seventy times seven times.

How do we know what verses are to be for us and those for only the church leaders? I guess the way you know is when the CC says these verse are for the masses of catholics and those verses are only for the CC leaders. The church leaders tell you. That doesn’t seem self serving to you?

 

[tweetymom]

:

And that’s not what I was referring to; I’ll repost the comment.​

[SIGN]Randy: Jesus, of course. The king retains full authority and possession of the “key” even though He may delegate authority to the Royal Steward. After all, if the king were to walk into the room, none of his subjects would ignore him simply because the Royal Steward was present. However, in the king’s absence, the Royal Steward acts with the full authority of the King.

Since Jesus has ascended into heaven and is no longer physically present on earth, His Royal Steward acts on His behalf with His full authority. [/SIGN]/QUO

His Royal Steward is the Holy Spirit who works in Jesus behalf, and Authority:thumbsup:

 

[Randy_Carson]

How do we know what verses are to be for us and those for only the church leaders? I guess the way you know is when the CC says these verse are for the masses of catholics and those verses are only for the CC leaders. The church leaders tell you. That doesn’t seem self serving to you?

Oh…gotcha.

Yes, Jesus is not physically present on earth; He may be with us in other ways, but He left Peter in charge of the visible Church on earth.

 

[tweetymom]

Jesus is, spiritually, in the midst of His believers, but that’s not the context of the passage I provided. He was not speaking to multitudes, He was speaking to those He placed in authority over His Church. He explained how they could bind and loose, when two or three of them were together, because He would be in their midst spiritually. Physically, in a perfected body, our Lord is in heaven.

Mat 18:17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.
Mat 18:18 Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven.
Mat 18:19 Again I say to you, that if two of you shall consent upon earth, concerning anything whatsoever they shall ask, it shall be done to them by my Father who is in heaven.
Mat 18:20 For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
Mat 18:21 Then came Peter unto him and said: Lord, how often shall my brother offend against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
Mat 18:22 Jesus saith to him: I say not to thee, till seven times; but till seventy times seven times.

All these verses are for all of us. We believers are the church and all scripture is for us His people.

 

[Randy_Carson]

:

-
And that’s not what I was referring to; I’ll repost the comment.

Randy: Jesus, of course. The king retains full authority and possession of the “key” even though He may delegate authority to the Royal Steward. After all, if the king were to walk into the room, none of his subjects would ignore him simply because the Royal Steward was present. However, in the king’s absence

, the Royal Steward acts with the full authority of the King.

Since Jesus has ascended into heaven and is no longer physically present on earth, His Royal Steward acts on His behalf with His full authority.

His Royal Steward is the Holy Spirit who works in Jesus behalf, and Authority:thumbsup:

Tweety-

I’ve noticed that your posts are always very brief - usually a single line - and you never offer any scriptures or links to other sources to support your assertions. Why is that?

The Holy Spirit is God and equal to both Jesus and the Father. Therefore, He does not hold the subservient position of royal steward.

 

[Randy_Carson]

All these verses are for all of us. We believers are the church and all scripture is for us His people.

Oh?

Can you consecrate the elements of the Eucharist like those to whom Jesus gave this authority?

Or are those verses not for all believers?

 

[Dokimas]

Oh?

Can you consecrate the elements of the Eucharist like those to whom Jesus gave this authority?

What verses tell us that the Bread and Wine need special consecration by special people?​

I still don’t understand why the CC don’t give Bread AND Wine to the average people in light of the fact that Jesus gave us the Bread AND the Wine?

 

[Randy_Carson]

What verses tell us that the Bread and Wine need special consecration by special people?

Jesus made the Apostles priests at the Last Supper since the Eucharist is a sacrifice and only priests may offer sacrifices. He would not command them to “Do this” without giving them the wherewithal to do it.

I still don’t understand why the CC don’t give Bread AND Wine to the average people in light of the fact that Jesus gave us the Bread AND the Wine?

Walk into any Catholic Church in the United States tomorrow, and you will see Catholics receiving the Eucharist under both species - unless, of course, the local bishop has temporarily restricted the use of the Chalice during the Swine Flu epidemic.

However, as pointed out previously, Jesus is fully present in either species, so Catholics receive the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus even if they only receive the host.

 

[Dokimas]

Jesus made the Apostles priests at the Last Supper since the Eucharist is a sacrifice and only priests may offer sacrifices. He would not command them to “Do this” without giving them the wherewithal to do it. According to sacred tradition??? I’ve never seen it in the Bible.

Walk into any Catholic Church in the United States tomorrow, and you will see Catholics receiving the Eucharist under both species - unless, of course, the local bishop has temporarily restricted the use of the Chalice during the Swine Flu epidemic. Are you saying that I’ll see the priest offer BOTH the Bread AND WINE to each person that walks down the isle to the front of the church???

 

[Randy_Carson]

Jesus made the Apostles priests at the Last Supper since the Eucharist is a sacrifice and only priests may offer sacrifices. He would not command them to “Do this” without giving them the wherewithal to do it.

*According to sacred tradition??? I’ve never seen it in the Bible. *

Jesus commanded the Apostles to “Do this in memory of me”. How could they “do this” if they did not have the “faculties” they needed to “do this”. This is implicit.

Walk into any Catholic Church in the United States tomorrow, and you will see Catholics receiving the Eucharist under both species - unless, of course, the local bishop has temporarily restricted the use of the Chalice during the Swine Flu epidemic.

*Are you saying that I’ll see the priest offer BOTH the Bread AND WINE to each person that walks down the isle to the front of the church??? **

Yes, of course. It’s been this way for as long as I’ve been Catholic.

 

[Dokimas]

Yes, of course. It’s been this way for as long as I’ve been Catholic.​

Are you saying the average catholic church goer doesn’t get the host only, they get the Bread to eat and the Wine to drink just like Jesus instituded 2000 years ago? I only see a host!!

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

How do we know what verses are to be for us and those for only the church leaders? I guess the way you know is when the CC says these verse are for the masses of catholics and those verses are only for the CC leaders. The church leaders tell you. That doesn’t seem self serving to you?

Dokimas,

Read the full chapter and see who Christ was addressing. It wasn’t the multitudes. It’s clear enough to see you don’t have to ask the Catholic Church leaders, if you read it in context of who was being spoken too.

Because Christ was specifically addressing His disciples and not the multitudes doesn’t mean we don’t learn from the passage. It gives us understanding of Church authority and morals expected of Christians.

Now, as for what the Church tells us, we don’t have to believe…we choose to believe in light of scriptures.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

All these verses are for all of us. We believers are the church and all scripture is for us His people.

You’re not reading in context tweety. He was specifically addressing His disciples about Church authority. As I explained, there is a lot all the people can learn from this, but assuming our own authority is not the right message.

tweetymom, with all due respect I have to tell you, you take away your own credibility with your ‘snap’ answers. You don’t take the time to explain your beliefs for others to understand. What is your goal on CAF?

 

[Dokimas]

Jesus is, spiritually, in the midst of His believers, but that’s not the context of the passage I provided. He was not speaking to multitudes, He was speaking to those He placed in authority over His Church. He explained how they could bind and loose, when two or three of them were together, because He would be in their midst spiritually. Physically, in a perfected body, our Lord is in heaven.

Mat 18:17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.
Mat 18:18 Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven.
Mat 18:19 Again I say to you, that if two of you shall consent upon earth, concerning anything whatsoever they shall ask, it shall be done to them by my Father who is in heaven.
Mat 18:20 For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
Mat 18:21 Then came Peter unto him and said: Lord, how often shall my brother offend against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
Mat 18:22 Jesus saith to him: I say not to thee, till seven times; but till seventy times seven times.

Matthew 28:
18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 “teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.​

Looks like Jesus wanted us to be taught the things Jesus told His disciples. Wouldn’t that mean the ‘you’ is for us?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Matthew 28:
18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 “teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.​

Looks like Jesus wanted us to be taught the things Jesus told His disciples. Wouldn’t that mean the ‘you’ is for us?

Yes, He most certainly did. But, He did not make the ‘multitudes’ the authority of His Church. He chose 12 men. The self authority being assumed in these days is not scriptural.

 

[Dokimas]

Yes, He most certainly did. But, He did not make the ‘multitudes’ the authority of His Church. He chose 12 men. The self authority being assumed in these days is not scriptural.

This is not for us???
Matthew 18:
15 ¶ "Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother.
16 "But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’​

If this is not for us, how are we to handle it when someone sins against us?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

This is not for us???
Matthew 18:
15 ¶ "Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother.
16 "But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’​

If this is not for us, how are we to handle it when someone sins against us?

Take it to the Church…

 

[Bill_Pick]

Yep–they “just put what Scriptures they thought good to be a part of the Bible”–just like you say. * Infallibly they did this*, kevin, unless you want to protest against the Catholic Church’s decision and consider the Gospel of the Nazoreans or the Didache inspired?

The only reason you know what Jesus taught about salvation is because the CC told you he said that.

St. Augustine said, “I would not believe the Gospels were it not for the Catholic Church”.

For a wonderful discussion about “outside the church there is no salvation”, see this thread.

One thing we know is that the CC does know the diff beween punishment and Penance.