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rinnie
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sorry i meant dont know the faith.
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louey
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Rinnie, ask yourself this question…If it is "through no fault of their own if they do not know Jesus and the Catholic faith, then who’s fault is it? Is it God’s fault? Let’s us see what scripture says.
“For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? Or how shall they believe him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they be sent, as it is written: How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, of them that bring glad tidings of good things? Faith then cometh by hearing; and hearing by the word of Christ.” (Rom. 10:13-15, 17) “Go ye into the whole world, and preach the gospel to every creature, He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be condemned.” He who does not believe is condemned.” (Mk. 16:15-16) “He that doth not believe, is already judged.” (Jn. 3:18) “And if our gospel is also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.” (2Cor. 4:3-4) “In a flame of fire giving vengeance to them who know not God, and who obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. Who shall suffer eternal punishment in destruction, from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his power (2Thess. 1:8-9).”
Invincible ignorance will not save a man. God is not the author of his “invincible ignorance” He will’s all to be saved. The sad fact is most are lost. Scriptures attest to this…14 For many are called, but, but few are chosen. Matt. 22:14 also, " Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. 14 How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it." (Matt.7: 13-14)
God who know’s the heart of a man who is truly seeking Him, will not leave him in darkness of the Truth…
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Chaldean_Rite
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The teaching of the Catholic Church, the Spouse of Christ says:
**847 **This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation
848 “Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.”
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Chaldean_Rite
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Outside The Church There Is No Salvation
The doctrine that “Outside the Church there is no salvation” is one that is constantly misinterpreted by those who won’t submit to the Magisterium of the Church. Faith does not depend upon our ability to reason to the truth but on our humility before the Truth presented to us by those to whom Christ entrusted that task. This is why the First Vatican Council taught that it is the task of the Magisterium ALONE to determine and expound the meaning of the Tradition - including “outside the Church no salvation.”
Concerning this doctrine the Pope of Vatican I, Pius IX, spoke on two different occasions. In an allocution (address to an audience) on December 9th, 1854 he said:
The doctrine that “Outside the Church there is no salvation” is one that is constantly misinterpreted by those who won’t submit to the Magisterium of the Church. Faith does not depend upon our ability to reason to the truth but on our humility before the Truth presented to us by those to whom Christ entrusted that task. This is why the First Vatican Council taught that it is the task of the Magisterium ALONE to determine and expound the meaning of the Tradition - including “outside the Church no salvation.”
Concerning this doctrine the Pope of Vatican I, Pius IX, spoke on two different occasions. In an allocution (address to an audience) on December 9th, 1854 he said:
We must hold as of the faith, that out of the Apostolic Roman Church there is no salvation; that she is the only ark of safety, and whosoever is not in her perishes in the deluge; we must also, on the other hand, recognize with certainty that those who are invincible in ignorance of the true religion are not guilty for this in the eyes of the Lord. And who would presume to mark out the limits of this ignorance according to the character and diversity of peoples, countries, minds and the rest?
Again, in his encyclical Quanto conficiamur moerore of 10 August, 1863 addressed to the Italian bishops, he said:
It is known to us and to you that those who are in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion, but who observe carefully the natural law, and the precepts graven by God upon the hearts of all men, and who being disposed to obey God lead an honest and upright life, may, aided by the light of divine grace, attain to eternal life; for God who sees clearly, searches and knows the heart, the disposition, the thoughts and intentions of each, in His supreme mercy and goodness by no means permits that anyone suffer eternal punishment, who has not of his** own free will fallen into sin**.
ewtn.com/expert/answers/outside_the_church.htm
ewtn.com/expert/answers/outside_the_church.htm
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Our_Refuge
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louey, since you are a sedevacantist I will not quote from the current catechism. Here is a quote from the catechism of Pius X
- Q. Are all bound to belong to the Church?
A. All are bound to belong to the Church, and he who knows the Church to be the true Church and remains out of it, cannot be saved.
In like manner one who, doubting, fears to examine the religion he professes lest he should discover its falsity and be convinced of the truth of the Catholic faith, cannot be saved.
**Suppose, however, that there is a non-Catholic who firmly believes that the church to which he belongs is the true Church, and who has never – even in the past – had the slightest doubt of that fact – what will become of him? **
If he was validly baptized and never committed a mortal sin, he will be saved; because, believing himself a member of the true Church, he was doing all he could to serve God according to his knowledge and the dictates of his conscience. But if ever he committed a mortal sin, his salvation would be very much more difficult. A mortal sin once committed remains on the soul till it is forgiven. Now, how could his mortal sin be forgiven? Not in the Sacrament of Penance, for the Protestant does not go to confession; and if he does, his minister – not being a true priest – has no power to forgive sins. Does he know that without confession it requires an act of perfect contrition to blot out mortal sin, and can he easily make such an act? What we call contrition is often only imperfect contrition – that is, sorrow for our sins because we fear their punishment in Hell or dread the loss of Heaven. If a Catholic – with all the instruction he has received about how to make an act of perfect contrition and all the practice he has had in making such acts – might find it difficult to make an act of perfect contrition after having committed a mortal sin, how much difficulty will not a Protestant have in making an act of perfect contrition, who does not know about this requirement and who has not been taught to make continued acts of perfect contrition all his life. It is to be feared either he would not know of this necessary means of regaining God’s friendship, or he would be unable to elicit the necessary act of perfect contrition, and thus the mortal sin would remain upon his soul and he would die an enemy of God.
If, then, we found a Protestant who never committed a mortal sin after Baptism, and who never had the slightest doubt about the truth of his religion, that person would be saved; because, being baptized, he is a member of the Church, and being free from mortal sin he is a friend of God and could not in justice be condemned to Hell. Such a person would attend Mass and receive the Sacraments if he knew the Catholic Church to be the only true Church.
I said I gave you an example that can scarcely be found, namely, of a person not a Catholic, who really never doubted the truth of his religion, and who, moreover, never committed during his whole life a mortal sin. There are so few such persons that we can practically say for all those who are not visibly members of the Catholic Church, believing its doctrines, receiving its Sacraments, and being governed by its visible head, our Holy Father, the Pope, salvation is an extremely difficult matter. "
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louey
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Your first paragraph is the words of a Mr. Donovan I believe, which hold no weight. Dogma’s are not to be “expounded” nor do they “develop” over time into an entirely different meaning. Dogma’s are universal in time, for all time. I have already explained in previous post’s in regards to the encyclical’s by Pius IX, so I will not repeat myself, please read previous posts on this thread. It is the enemies of the Church who can not tolerate the dogma EENS, and done everything to water down if not out and out deny this dogma. Pope Pius IX upheld the dogma…as he says, " We must hold as of the faith, that out of the Apostolic Roman Church there is no salvation; that she is the only ark of safety, and whosoever is not in her perishes in the deluge,"…he then explains that one who is invincible ignorant does not commit the sin of infidelity. Finally, these are fallible encyclicals.
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Chaldean_Rite
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A dogma is a truth that has been made known by the Teaching authority of the Church. Therefore, whatever you mean by “expounded” or “develop” is not only at odds with common sense, it also nicely ignores that for the first 300 years, the fathers *developed *the dogmas which explain the hypostatic union of Christ.
As far as your comment of the fallability or infallibility, do you have any grouds to say such? Whichever church you belong too, do you even have such concepts? Or are you just making this stuff up?
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Chaldean_Rite
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louey
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What do you mean, “before you can speak about dogma’s?” Dogma’s are infallible truth’s, universal, one does not need to be a priest or bishop or even the Pope to speak about a dogma. I need no authority to “speak” about dogma’s.
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Chaldean_Rite
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I mean, to certain individuals, this concept of dogma has no meaning. Some Christians have no dogmas, or ones they can call dogmas since they have no church but themselves or their pastor.
What do you mean, “before you can speak about dogma’s?” Dogma’s are infallible truth’s, universal, one does not need to be a priest or bishop or even the Pope to speak about a dogma. I need no authority to “speak” about dogma’s.
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Deacon_Ed_B
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All of this is a rehash of another thread which I was involved in several months ago. Instead of going over everything I will just give you the citations used, ask that you read them and then draw your own conclusions.
Read:
Romans 2:12-16
The Catechism of the Catholic Church
Paragraph numbers 846 - 847 & 848
I would also add one thought. Before you start criticizing this teaching, remember, this was put out by the Magisterium of the Roman Catholic Church, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. I would not think that any of us, including myself, are arrogant enough to dispute that fact. We can question for understanding, but not to try to refute. If that is done, it puts you into protestant relativism.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
Read:
Romans 2:12-16
The Catechism of the Catholic Church
Paragraph numbers 846 - 847 & 848
I would also add one thought. Before you start criticizing this teaching, remember, this was put out by the Magisterium of the Roman Catholic Church, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. I would not think that any of us, including myself, are arrogant enough to dispute that fact. We can question for understanding, but not to try to refute. If that is done, it puts you into protestant relativism.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
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louey
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I said dogma’s do not expound or develop to the point where they are contradictory, or entirely change the dogma. There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. Now, there is salvation outside the Catholic Church. So when the Church defined, infallibly 3 times there is no salvation outside the Church, according to what you believe that is not what the Church really meant, or did not understand the dogma correctly. The encyclicals of PPIX were addressed to who? This will answer your question about infallibile and fallible teachings. In the Bull Cantate Domino, an infallible declaration; was it not clear, and precise?
Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Bull Cantate Domino, 1441: “The most Holy Roman Catholic Church firmly believes, professes, and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews, heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.”
There is also no remission of sin outside the Catholic Church…Pope Boniface VIII, Bull Unam Sanctum, 1302: “With Faith urging us we are forced to believe and to hold the one, holy, Catholic Church and that, apostolic, and we firmly believe and simply confess this (Church) outside which there is no salvation nor remission of sin…”
Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215: “With our hearts we believe and with our lips we confess but one Church, not that of the heretics, but the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside which we believe that no one is saved.”
To believe otherwise is heresy. I am a Catholic.
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Chaldean_Rite
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I do not see any of this as contradictory. In fact, this has been the constant teaching of God throughout history, only Isrealites were saved, then as salvation history unfolded, you saw in Jonas, God having mercy on other nations, but it was still Isreal centered, and when Christ came, it extended and became catholic, manifesting itself in the Church, which is Catholic, but the doors are still open, provided certain conditions are met which only God can judge. Its pretty consistent if you ask me.
I think you are making a big deal out of nothing.
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louey
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PhyllisA
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THX :harp:
I’ll have to put these in a file for future reference.
Be Blessed!
Phyllis @};-
I’ll have to put these in a file for future reference.
Be Blessed!
Phyllis @};-
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louey
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Chaldean Rite, It is a BIG DEAL! To believe one can be saved outside the Catholic Church render’s the Church of Christ meaningless. To say one can be saved outside the Church denies the whole tenor of the Gospel. The martyr’s and missionaries of the Church died in vain bringing the Gospel to those who were in darkness. Athanasian Creed is meaningless when we declare…Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the Catholic Faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity…"
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cynic
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Too bad if you were born in China a millenia ago. Too bad indeed.
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rinnie
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Louey post 63 is what i was looking for. thankx post 63. There are people in this world who have never heard of Jesus Christ, and if they pick up a bible or dont pray to who they are forced to pray they will be killed. That is who i was talking about. Look at the people we are at war with now. if they dont worship who they are told they will be killed. so they dont even have the chance to even learn about Jesus alone worship him. If someone held a gun to your head, you would do what you were told too. Or if you were forbidden to own a bible, and really didnt know the truth, would you have it in your house and risk having your children raped, killed. These are the people i am talking about, who are so afraid, or dont know the truth. They are not accountable, God understands. thats what i meant. But as far as everything else you said for people like us , yes the RCC is the fulllness of the truth. and yes it has all of the teachings. Hope you understand better what i meant now. But i dont believe that these people who are in harms way, and never have been taught the fullness of the truth will not be saved. Yes i do believe that salvation is through the Catholic Church, but to say its the only way, i disagree in special circumstances which i stated above.
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Our_Refuge
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louey be honest. YOU are a sedevacantist therefore YOU are outside the Church. You believe that the last three Popes are apostates and false Popes. Your salvation is in serious jeopardy.
The following applies to YOU.
Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence,* Bull Cantate Domino*, 1441: “The most Holy Roman Catholic Church firmly believes, professes, and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews,** heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal**; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her"
The following applies to YOU.
Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence,* Bull Cantate Domino*, 1441: “The most Holy Roman Catholic Church firmly believes, professes, and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews,** heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal**; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her"
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louey
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Yes, I do understand what you mean. I can not agree, as I am a Catholic. My opinion does not matter, my sentiments do not matter. Catholic’s must believe what the Church declares dogmatically. “none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews, heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her…” This is what a Catholic must believe if he want’s to remain a Catholic. (Bull Cantate Domino, Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, 1441)
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