Who would you believe?

[mikijam]

I just want to see how many people dont trust their own souls.
I want to see how many people feel they are not worthy of a message from God and WOW!!! most people dont believe they are worthy. I just find it amazing that people feel that God would not want to talk to his children.Why?are people so bad that God cant stand us enough not to talk to us? He talks,we just dont listen,we put everything in between us.Jesus is the bridge to that.

How did you come to this conclusion, that most people don’t think they’re worthy? Hunh? No one in the above posts said anything about not feeling worthy. God talks to me all the time. Through prayer, through meditation, and yes, through church. Why would He say anything that would contradict His church?

The fact is, we can all be deceived. If I had a ‘vision’ that contradicted the fullness of truth revealed through the Church that Jesus founded, then I would know that it is a deceipt, designed to separate me from the Body of Christ which is the Church.

It sounds like the old “can God make a rock so big even He can’t lift it” question.

Let me turn the tables: If you read the bible and interpreted a scripture passage differently than the rest of your church, who would you believe?

-Peace

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

I would believe the Church. It has nothing to do with unworthiness, but rather obedience and, frankly, common sense. If I received a vision and it conflicted with Church teaching, I would immediately know it is not of God. You seem to get our sense of worthiness confused with discernment. We don’t feel unworthy; we are a beloved member of the Body of Christ. However, we must test everything and hold on to what is good (which would not be something that contradicts the pillar and foundation of truth).

Let’s rephrase, and maybe you’ll understand where we are coming from. If you receive a vision and it contradicts the Bible, who would you believe?

 

[Mintaka]

I need to go to bed, too… but first:

1. “Wherever two or more of you are gathered”, “that you may be one”, and “the gates of Hell will not prevail against it” sorta indicate that God wants us to stick together, not go it alone! Obviously, God will come looking for us if we stray or get cut off from the flock, but He wants us to stick together in a flock, not traipse around looking for wolves.
2. How can I ever be “churchless”? The Church is Christ’s Body, and nothing can ever separate us from Christ’s love. If I am all alone on a desert island, I am surrounded by a cloud of witnesses – my brothers and sisters of the Church, my fellow body parts of Christ – as well as having God with me.
3. It’s pretty funny that you think Catholics are averse to getting direct messages from God. Honestly, you have no idea how wrong you are. (I bet there’s hardly a Catholic on the forum who doesn’t have some strange and wonderful story to tell of something that happened to herself or a family member or a friend.) We are always looking about for indications of God’s will, noticing little Spirit-filled coincidences, and finding dreams and voices and tiny miracles.

But the smart thing to do is to test the spirits as St. John advised. Three of the seven gifts of the Holy Spirit are very useful for the purpose: wisdom, understanding, and right judgment. And yes, among other things, that means not ignoring what the Church teaches.

However, looking at your old post on another thread, it seems that you actually want to talk about having visions which are neither in conflict with the Bible nor with the Church! Learning Hebrew is a matter of Christian freedom, I should think.

But it is still a good idea to run your vision by some trusted person of experience and wisdom.

 

[Pax]

I agree with Prayer Warrior in pointing to 1 Timothy 3:15 which says:

“know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the **church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.” **

Please be advised that the bible does not even call itself the “pillar and bulwark of the truth.” Instead, scripture says that this title and position is held by the Church.

I am not reliable, but the Church and Scripture are. If I received a vision that contradicted or was in conflict with the Church and Scripture, I would have to dismiss such a vision as either from Satan or from my own imaginings. God does not change and He does not contradict himself. God would not give us something through the Church or Scripture and then contradict it.

I hope this helps.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

As a quick jump in here Storm Ive attended Baptist and in your scenario of a vision. someone back suggested you test the spirits by talking to others.

Now, unless Ive missed something thats what everyone should do, regardless of church affliiation. So it wouldnt necessarily suggest a unworthy deal, just what one was told to do by Christ.

If one says oh well I couldnt have a vision, thats only for those more inclined than me, then thats a worthy issue.

And I liked what was said earlier that relying or focusing on the vision would be wrong, just like focusing on any miracle or wonder.

 

[Mangy_Donkey]

I find this question very foreign, I must misunderstand you. I would never trust my own visions over Christ’s. So yes, I would believe Christ’s Church over myself.

 

[Nita]

I agree with you on if it contradicts the word of God then its notof God but What if it does not contradict God’s word?
who will you believe,your soul or the church??

Church teaching is also God’s word to us. Doctrinally, I’m referring to what has been infallibly defined. Some things are still open to discussion.

In regards to Church regulations (which can change), we are still to be obedient to the Church - to obey current regulations mandated by the Church. As an example, we have a Church regulation that says we are to attend Mass on the Feast of the Assumption, August 15th. If I had a vision where I was told that I didn’t have to obey that regulation and could just sleep in - I’d know that vision was not coming from God.

To answer your question regarding whether I would believe my soul or the Church - they’re the same, in perfect agreement. My soul has accepted the Church as a fantastic gift from Jesus to assure me that I have a solid source of truth regarding God’s will and the correct interpretation of Scripture. Church teaching (which includes Scripture) is what my soul believes and has accepted as full source of truth for all men here on earth (1 Tim 3:15). I would never give a vision more credibility.

God bless,

Nita

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Question, Please do not be offended. Im Baptist so Im not that familiar with the Catholic faith but I believe there is only one faith,Faith In God.We are all brothers and sisters.

But my question to you is,
“If believe that you had a vision and it did not agree with your Catholic teachings who would you believe,your vision or your Church’s teachings?”

Blessings!

Well it wouldn’t be the first time that a Catholic had a vision or dream, which was not in accord with the Church at the time. However, their dreams never contradicted Sacred tradition and Scripture, but confirmed them. It was usually the case that various leaders of the Church were not following the gospel as they should have. Heaven intervened through the lives of the Saints.

St. Francis of Assisi, St. Teresa of Avila and St. John of the Cross, St. Bernadette, the Children of Fatima, just to name a few,
had visions that the Church not only did not accept initially, but persecuted the visionaries and tried to silence them. St. John of the Cross was thrown into prison, by his own religious order. St. Francis was rejected by the Pope on his first visit, as being demented. St Bernadette was called too stupid for heaven to have bothered with her. However, one thing that all of these Saints followed was obedience to the gospel. Their lives actually change the minds of Church leaders including Popes.

BTW, welcome to the forum!

In Christ Jesus
Jim

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Interesting points, Jim, but the fact is, it was not per se that the visions of the people ‘conflicted’ with Church teachings. None of the saints were told for example in a vision that the eucharist was ‘only symbolic’. St. Francis was told to repair a church–which is hardly against church teaching. St. Therese of the Child Jesus wanted to enter the convent earlier than her superior had recommended; again not against church teachings. St. Bernadette reported a vision of the Blessed Mother, and none of what the Virgin told her to say or do contradicted church teachings–the remarks about Bernadette being ‘stupid’ reflect more on the negative feelings of various people who felt that ‘they’ were the ones who were entitled to have that kind of vision, not some ‘ignorant peasant girl’.

The fact that in every case of a saint’s having what was judged to be an approved vision–even if the approval came much later–it was because the Church had found on examination and the guidance of the Holy Spirit that all the vision contained was worthy of belief and DID NOT CONTRADICT Church teaching.

The teaching of the Church does not change but it can develop. It never, however, develops into what could ‘negate’ a previous teaching. It never brings ‘something out of nothing’. So visions which may not have been accepted by a particular authority like a bishop were not necessarily, “against Church teaching as understood at the time”. That makes it look as though the Church changed the teaching to incorporate this ‘new’ teaching, and that is not so.

The Immaculate Conception was not a ‘new’ teaching which negated a previous Christian belief that Mary was not conceived immaculately.

If I had a vision that men should be allowed to be married before entering the priesthood, that would not conflict with the teaching of the Catholic Church per se though it would conflict with the current ‘discipline’ of celibacy. It is possible that this vision would one day be accepted as an authentic vision, and that one day men WOULD be permitted to be married before entering the priesthood, and this would not invalidate Catholic teaching or make the current discipline looked on as ‘wrong teaching.’

If, OTOH, I had a vision that women should be allowed to be priests, that would conflict with the teaching of the church. Such a vision would never be accepted as authentic; it violates a fundamental doctrine (not a discipline) of the church, and it will never happen. We do not go from a prohibition which is taught as sacred truth and change it into a ‘new truth.’

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Interesting points, Jim, but the fact is, it was not per se that the visions of the people ‘conflicted’ with Church teachings.

Correct, that’s what I said.

However, their dreams never contradicted Sacred tradition and Scripture, but confirmed them.

St. John of the Cross was thrown in prison for his teachings on contemplative prayer, which included meditation. The Church in the 1500’s Spain, after defeating legitimate heresies, “quietism” being one of them, taught that discursive prayer as the only way to pray. Contemplative prayer, was the ancient prayer of mystics and not for ordinary people.

St. Bernadette was indeed persecuted by clerics and even the Bishop. She was called stupid by some of them. However, this was local and not the Vatican itself.

The bottom line to the question is, any vision would have to be presented to the Church. In fact, I’ve not read about any visions, that it were not directed to the Church. All the visionaries had to go to the Church with the messages they received. None of the messages contradicted Church doctrine.

St. Bernadette’s vision confirmed the dogma of the Immaculate Conception.

Jim

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I thought we were on the same page, and so indeed we are. The contemplative prayer issue I think still relates to discipline, and the time and place were particular, not universal.

Anyway, as I said, I think we are saying the same thing. You are probably saying it better than I am, and so I thank you and God bless.

 

[SeekerJen]

If it does not contradict the word of God, it cannot POSSIBLY contradict the teachings of the Catholic Church.

Exactly.

 

[Spirithound]

Im just trying to figure out why people feel they are not worthy of a message from God but another man is? Why is it so hard to believe that God would speak to us?

Non sequitur. You are starting off your scenario by assuming that the vision is real and the Church is wrong. That is the only way that someone would fall into a trap of false humility by submitting themselves to the authority of the Church.

 

[pray4peace]

But my question to you is,
“If believe that you had a vision and it did not agree with your Catholic teachings who would you believe,your vision or your Church’s teachings?”

Blessings!

I would believe the Church’s teaching, which comes from God’s word.
If a vision, spirit , etc. comes and says anything that goes against what God has taught me, then I would not believe this vision.

Blessings

 

[Zooey]

This would seem likea good place to post what we Methodists call the “Wesleyan Quadrilateral”.
There are 4 things we must look to, whether its a vision, or an interpretation of Scripture…whatever:

1, Scripture: Does this conflict with the Bible?

2.Tradition: Look to the ECFs, to the consistent teaching of Christians throughout the history of the Church, but especially in the early days. (Before any separations).

1. Experience: What is the opinion of mature Christians around you? What does their life of faith in the Lord say that applies to the question? (Note: I have done this here! I was doubtful about a particular case, & I threw it out to the good folk at CAF. Every single one of them disagreed with what I was thinking, & I went with them…Not because I feel “unworthy”–we all are that–but because while I wa letting my emotions rule my head, others were able to look at it dispassionately, & come to a different conclusion).
   If no one in the history of the world has ever thought of this before, it is far less likely, than if it is part of the experience of believers for millennia.
2. Common Sense: (Which my grandmother would tell you, is “Very uncommon!!”). If what you think you are “being told”, or whatever, is irrational, it probably is your imagination. Not necessarily, mind you; but a lack of logic, reason, & order is a big warning sign.

---

So, what would I do, if I had a vision?? I would say, “I am **not **St Joan of Arc; I need to go take my temperature”. Or have my meds checked. Or whatever. I have had, you see, not visions, but I have had hallucinations, and I well know how “real” they can seem…I once imagined that my pastor had turned into a large rat, and the whole rest of the congregation were all mice!! It was as real as if it really happened…but it was a reaction to a new medication, & when I came off of that medication, rehydrated myself, & took a long rest, I was able to know that I had been out of my head.

Yes, this is a Methodist point of view, but I hope it may add to the clarity of the discussion. Especially since I am frequently impressed by the fact that Catholics tend to take a very clear look at any claims of private revelations, etc, before jumping on board.
God bless, & HTH!

 

[Joysong]

God will intervene in a very important matter if we fail to heed His inspirations in prayer, often as a last resort due to our waywardness. I’m thinking of the visions both of St. Peter in Acts 10, and St. Paul on the road to Damascus. Peter received his vision three times, due to the importance of a shift in his ministry, that he formerly believed was confined only to the Jews. And we all know why Saul was confronted, due to the persecution and murdering of God’s people. Remember also the warning God issued to Balaam in speaking through a donkey to correct his infidelity.

I could send you teachings from one of the Doctors of our Church that instruct us on how God communicates with the soul according to its capacity to receive. The more exterior the communication is (i.e., audible word or visions), the less spiritual and authentic it may be. Due to the imperfection of man and his inability to receive pure spirit from God, He brings them from the most exterior to the more interior - gradually - according as the soul is purified and able to receive these apprehensions.

That being said, it is generally unlikely a person will suddenly receive a vision until they are rather advanced in spirituality and purification. Even then, they may be quite adept at hearing God and the vision will be unnecessary.

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

Well it wouldn’t be the first time that a Catholic had a vision or dream, which was not in accord with the Church at the time. However, their dreams never contradicted Sacred tradition and Scripture, but confirmed them. It was usually the case that various leaders of the Church were not following the gospel as they should have. Heaven intervened through the lives of the Saints.

St. Francis of Assisi, St. Teresa of Avila and St. John of the Cross, St. Bernadette, the Children of Fatima, just to name a few,
had visions that the Church not only did not accept initially, but persecuted the visionaries and tried to silence them. St. John of the Cross was thrown into prison, by his own religious order. St. Francis was rejected by the Pope on his first visit, as being demented. St Bernadette was called too stupid for heaven to have bothered with her. However, one thing that all of these Saints followed was obedience to the gospel. Their lives actually change the minds of Church leaders including Popes.

BTW, welcome to the forum!

In Christ Jesus
Jim

I agree with all you say here, and would add to the mix one of my favorite saints–St. Padre Pio, who was also questioned, badgered, doubted, etc. for many years.

As you rightly point out, the true visions of these obedient saints did not contradict the teaching of the Church as is proposed in the original post. Now, since Storm is not Catholic, I’ll hazard a guess that he is referring to something in Church teaching that he feels is not scripturally supported. So, let’s say you have a vision, and it tells you that the dogma of the Immaculate Conception is not true. Would a Catholic believe it? Not this Catholic, to be sure.

I think the OP may not understand that, for Catholics, the teaching of the Magesterium is authoritative. Just as scripture is the inerrant Word of God, so too is the Church the pillar and foundation of truth. Of course, that doesn’t me satan will not try to trick us. If he thinks he can get someone to stray by giving a vision that contradicts the teaching of the Church, you can bet he will try.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

problem is Storms original question is not specific, so it makes it harder to discuss.

I suppose the question could be if you had a vision that contridicted teaching and no one agreed then what do you go with?

Its true as everyones said a vision cannont contridict, and it doesnt matter if your Catholic or not, it simply cannot.

Now, if you had a vision and all the sources said gee there is no contridication but gee no one thought of it before, then there could be something there.

Im enjoying the conversation and finding christians DO toss things around through various means and are not blindly following God.

Which and I hope you dont take this wrong Storm but atheists often state do you follow everything your God and church puts out? How can you and be capable of thinking? Its a way of putting down christians as a whole stating we have no brains. (Ive even seen a drawing of a believer giving their brain to Jesus.)

Then these threads have gone over and over how its not true and all things have been thought out (especially neatly by Zooey) but all who have posted. So so much for no brains.

This is the stuff we need to get each others backs on.