Who Wrote the Four Gospels?

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Check again. One of the posters in that thread cites the Councils of Carthage & Hippo as well as Pope Innocent. That is definitely magisterial. In fact without those councils we wouldn’t even have a canon, at least not as we know it. So you would need to throw the baby out with the bathwater to question authorship.
The councils of Carthage and of Hippo were not Ecumenical Councils, but local councils, which cannot teach infallibly. Also, the letter written by a Pope to a particular Bishop is not an act of the Magisterium; acts of the Magisterium teach the Church; private theological assertions by a Pope in a letter, or even private theology stated in a sermon or published in a book, are not acts of the Magisterium.

More importantly, the mere use of a person’s name as a way of referring to a book of the Bible does not imply that the individual wrote that book. Thus the books of the Penateuch are attributed to Moses, and the Psalms are attributed to David, and the Wisdom book generally are attributed to Solomon. But this does not imply that these individuals actually sat down and wrote these books (though they may well have contributed).
 
The councils of Carthage and of Hippo were not Ecumenical Councils, but local councils, which cannot teach infallibly. Also, the letter written by a Pope to a particular Bishop is not an act of the Magisterium; acts of the Magisterium teach the Church; private theological assertions by a Pope in a letter, or even private theology stated in a sermon or published in a book, are not acts of the Magisterium.

More importantly, the mere use of a person’s name as a way of referring to a book of the Bible does not imply that the individual wrote that book. Thus the books of the Penateuch are attributed to Moses, and the Psalms are attributed to David, and the Wisdom book generally are attributed to Solomon. But this does not imply that these individuals actually sat down and wrote these books (though they may well have contributed).
To further your point, while the Psalms are attributed to David by name, Asaph is the stated author of several, as well as Solomon I believe. So logically to me, it would follow that though the canon was declared infallibly, the same does not necessarily apply to authorship. If it did, the Catholic Church would have attributed the Psalms to David, Asaph, and Solomon all by name.

Thanks for sharing your understanding of the backgrounds of the Gospel writers. That was more in line with what I had understood, but it sounds like there isn’t an official declaration; more of an accepted tradition.
 
The councils of Carthage and of Hippo were not Ecumenical Councils, but local councils, which cannot teach infallibly. .
Are you saying for 1000+ years, the Church did not really have an infallible NT Canon (even though it claimed to)?!
 
Particulary the Letter to the Hebrews, for example, is not identitified.
Carthage and Hippo name Paul as the author of the letter to the Hebrews.
By the way, we Assyro-Chaldean Catholics identify St. Paul as the author of Hebrews in our version of the New Testament, the Aramaic Pshytta or Peshitta. In our liturgy, the deacon mentions St. Paul in the process of proclaiming the letter.

Even for you Latin Catholics, your venerated St. Jerome lists St. Paul as the author of Hebrews in his Vulgata: “Epistula beati Pauli apostoli ad Hebraeos”. In your liturgy, do you mention St. Paul when proclaiming the letter?

God bless,

Rony
 
I think that the Pauline Epistles and other texts that atribute authors are likely by them, but with say the Gospels, we have no atribution. There’s just no evidence other than tradition that the Apostles wrote them. While they could have been, I don’t think that the authorship really matters anyhow. It’s what they contain that we care about.
The Catholic Council of Bishops determines what goes into the Bible. What was said is a matter of physical fact from the time of Christ until the death of the disciple John. The original books of the Gospels are in storage in archives in Rome. Even though the Apostles were Jews, God instructed each person’s mind in what was to be written in the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. So if you were to really accept the Bible,you would understand that God’s words, put into the minds of men, who wrote those words
is the first and final author of the Bible. The Apostles wrote God’s words into text. To simplify things the church should put in clearer terms of the Gospels of God, by the Apostle [name]. Then there might actually be a better understanding of the Bible.
 
What do we make of this statement by Alfred Korzybski? He said that “Man’s achievements rest on the use of symbols. For this reason, we must consider ourselves as a symbolic, semantic class of life. And those who rule the symbols rule us.”

Certainly this is true beyond the current reliance of our country on fiat, or imaginary money symbols. We are as a nation experiencing the ability of people with specialized knowledge to manipulate virtual accounts in such a way as to effect our physical lives. Even a superficial study of the FRS and banking reveals this to be easily discernible.

But of far more importance is who controls the symbols to which we attribute power over the destiny of experience of our immortal soul. I wonder, who even thinks of the scope of considerations involved in conveying ideas through several languages over two thousand years? Even just from person to person here and now, have we been perfectly understood in every one of our communications to someone else, or vice versa? Those ancient communications also lack tone of voice and body language, two factors from which we derive actually by far the majority of our face-to-face communications. We all know how awry the intent of an e-mail can go.

So, we start with a medium that is already devoid of vital factors. Add to that, what we do have is not in the original tongue. That tongue had it’s own specific cultural concepts and contexts. For instance, we now know that “camel” in the famous needle story is more properly translated “rope” or that “ravens” in the story of Elijah is better translated “the inhabitants of Oreb.” Even St. Jerome thought so.

And then we have the known and perhaps unknown levels of meaning commonly used by teachers at the time of Jesus. He himself taught in parables which had levels of interpretation, and even though some of that is known, He yet took His core group aside for private teaching: Mark 4 33,34. Since He was around publicly for one to three years,depending which Gospel you go by, one would imagine, with His level of understanding, He was constantly talking when “in the midst” I know I would have had a few questions, if I was privileged to be around and wasn’t one of the vastly greater number of scoffers. Of the few statements of His we do have, almost half can be traced or attributed to another source as at least a quote from the body of His own learning. The Bible is a thick book, but how much of it can be legitimately “red lettered?”

Next, we wonder, when we consider that ten people witness an event we have often more than that number of versions of it from the various perspectives, intelligences, and observational acumens of those witnesses. And as if the Apostles themselves were thought highly of in their ability to understand. Look, for instance, at the difference in tone and weight between John and the synoptic Gospels, and the other dissimilarities in those. And that is only four people who were “close” out of hundreds or thousands. The Gospels, as well, were public statement, not the private understandings of whatever authors. If you have written anything the length of a Gospel, you have an idea of what’s involved.

Then there is the idea of translation. What does this mean: FRXMPLGDSNWHRCLDBNDRSTDBYSMNTBNSTDGDSNWHR*? That is how Hebrew was written. NO vowels, punctuation, or capitalization. Have you already deciphered it? If yes, then consider that both Latin and Greek of the time were grammatically different from Aramaic. That means that, as the Romans said, “IDEM NON IDEM” or “The same in one language is not the same as that in another.” Wise folk, the Romans,

Then consider that about CE 170, Dionysius of complained that his own writings were being altered by others, but took solace in that the same was happening with the Gospels. And even Eusebius admitted that in his history of the Church he omitted all the things that would discredit the Church and her rulers and magnified those things that would exalt her. This licentious approach to writing was common at the time, and its “ends justifies the means” approach apparently lasted at least until the inquisition.

Remember, as well, that during this time Christians in their kindness to the future generations were burning libraries of incalculable wealths of knowledge in order to promote the faith. They were not alone int his, as the burning of the library of Alexandria attests, but the Christians had already taken care of the Serapaeum collection there. Indeed, many scholars suspect that these burnings took place because the pagan wirtings were so nearly identical to the Gospels.

On, then, to the canonization of the “current” version(s) of the Bible and ideas surrounding collections. The Wow! factor of the contents of the Gospel of Thomas was not even available to the Church fathers at the time of the decisions that standardized the texts in the book. Had they indeed been guided by the Holy Spirit, would they not have intuited the existence of other pertinent texts? I don’t know. Have you yourself read the history of the first three hundred years of the Church from a scholarly standpoint? I’m not even saying one ought agree with any particulars, but is it not necessary to have all the possibilities out on the table?

Again, back to language. Neither Greek, Latin, nor English carry any equivalent of the sense of the word “I” as used in the teaching languages of the Middle and Far East. This puts on the table a very serious question about the actual nature of the Identity statements attributed to Jesus.

And on it goes, with many, many questions not ordinarily considers by the ordinary person in the pew. So really, who wrote the Gospels is perhaps less of an important question than who translated them, according to what, and how then were they attributed their alleged meanings?
Code:
*For example, "God is now here" could be understood by someone  to be instead "God is nowhere"
 
Are you saying for 1000+ years, the Church did not really have an infallible NT Canon (even though it claimed to)?!
It never claimed it infallible until Trent. It was accepted as part of the Catholic teaching, but there were still some objections raised from time to time - though few and far between when you consider the time between the Councils of Hippo and Carthage (local) and Trent (ecumenical).

In other words, after Hippo and Carthage, it was still all right to question the Canon.
 
In your liturgy, do you mention St. Paul when proclaiming the letter (Hebrews)?

God bless,

Rony
Actually, we used to. I can recall in the 80’s referring it to Paul when I lectored. Nowadays, however its simply “the Letter to the Hebrews”. (sigh).
 
Since nobody else brought up recent biblical scholarship, I thought I would mention it.

Most scholars would agree that Martin Hengel was the greatest biblical scholar of the last 50 years or so. Certainly he would be the most widely respected among orthodox biblical scholars… He was not Catholic, although I believe Pope Benedict consulted with him.

Anyway, here are some comments from his book “The Four Gospels and the One Gospel of Jesus Christ”. About the superscriptions (titles like Mark) ;
  1. The superscriptions were "completely uniform by the 2nd century…Their original form …incriptio or subsciptio, is always the same…This goes against the form customary in ancient book titles, in which the name of the author is put first in the genitive and followed by the title of the book (p 48).
  2. “The unusual titles of the Gospels already indicate that the evangelists are not meant to appear as ‘biographical’…but to bear witness” (p 49) which is considered the highest form of true history in the ancient world (for interesting background on this read Richard Bauckham’s “Jesus and the Eyewitnesses”) .
  3. “The superscriptions were not added to the Gospels secondarily, or at a later time” (p 50).
  4. “The strange uniformity and early attestation of the titles of the Gospels excludes the possibility that for a long time they had been circulating anonymously in the communities or even that…they had received these titles as a secondary addition or that these titles had even been changed. For if they had circulated anonymously and had been given their titles only at a secondary stage and independently of one another in the different communities, because a title was needed for announcing the reading in worship, this must necessarily have resulted in a diversity of titles…Why…Matthew, Mark, Luke and John…There is no trace of such anonymity. Not only the complete uniformity of the titles from Alexandria to Lyons and from Antioch to Carthage…also manifold references in …2nd century…show their great age” (p 54)
In short, Hengel argues that they were called Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John from the first. That there is overwhelming evidence of this from the earliest church history. And that we have not a shadow anyone, anywhere, ever calling them anything else.

God bless, Annem
 
Detales
I wonder, who even thinks of the scope of considerations involved in conveying ideas through several languages over two thousand years?
The thousands upon thousands of biblical scholars who got their ph.d’s in Coptic, Greek, Aramaic, etc.’’
Of the few statements of His we do have, almost half can be traced or attributed to another source as at least a quote from the body of His own learning .
Please prove this statement.
unknown levels of meaning commonly …’ ten people witness an event we have often more than that number of versions of it from the various perspectives, intelligences, and observational acumens of those witnesses
I suggest you read “Jesus and the Eyewitnesses” to understand how witnesses in the ancient world were regarded and how knowledge was transmitted among Jews.
consider that both Latin and Greek of the time were grammatically different from Aramaic.
The historical and archaeological evidence suggests that the Second Temple Jews spoke Greek and Aramaic fluently. They would have had no trouble going from one language to another.
This licentious approach to writing was common at the time, and its “ends justifies the means” approach apparently lasted at least until the inquisition.
There is no evidence the Gospels were changed. And apparently you need a copy of Karmen’s “The Spanish Inquisition”.
The Wow! factor of the contents of the Gospel of Thomas was not even available to the Church fathers at the time of the decisions that standardized the texts in the book.
What, what are you talking about? About Thomas and your so called ‘wow’ factor may I remind you that line 114 from Thomas reads: Women do not deserve to live. Besides, Thomas was a Syriac piece of gibberish from a school of Gnostics. It is dated to after 170 AD. Read Perrin’s book on Thomas and see
Had they indeed been guided by the Holy Spirit, would they not have intuited the existence of other pertinent texts? I don’t know. Have you yourself read the history of the first three hundred years of the Church from a scholarly standpoint
The New Testament is comprised of almost every document we have from the first 70 years after the crucifixion. And I am very well informed about the first hundred years of the Church. And from a very scholarly standpoint.

May God grant you graces, Annem
 
Check again. One of the posters in that thread cites the Councils of Carthage & Hippo as well as Pope Innocent. That is definitely magisterial. In fact without those councils we wouldn’t even have a canon, at least not as we know it. So you would need to throw the baby out with the bathwater to question authorship.
Oh, ok, thanks. I thought the link you posted would send us straight to something from the Magisterium, I really didn’t feel like wading through another long thread trying to figure out what exactly you were referring to.

And if Carthage and Hippo and Innocent hadn’t done what they did, we still would have had a Canon, it just would have been clarified by others.

Still, though, the Church does not define authorship of a given book the same way they authoritatively define the Canon. The Canon is set. Period. Authorship is not. There are opinions e.g. on which New Testament letters were actually authored by Paul (as opposed to being authored by his disciples, later). Catholics are free to adhere to a number of theories of this kind.
 
That is an overarching and non sequitur conclusion. The term “sacred authors” is used of the whole Bible. You would be requiring the CCC to list all the authors every time they are referred to. Otherwise you invalidly infer they are nullifying the defined authorship of the previous 1K+ years, simply because there is no litany of authors each time.
I am not requiring anything of the kind from the CCC.

My posting you refer to inferred nothing–it may have implied something, as you inferred it, but my post itself did not infer anything.
 
That is interesting but hardly conclusive. Those statements by the current Pope are not ex cathedra - but conciliar definitions are.
ex cathedra refers only to pronouncements made by the Pope, not by a Council.

Regardless, the teaching of the Pope and Councils obliges our assent.
 
Regardless, CCC 120 Lists the authors of all NT books except Acts and Revelation.
No it doesn’t. Read it. That’s simply a listing of books by their common names. It does not say who wrote the book of Kings for example.
 
Since nobody else brought up recent biblical scholarship, I thought I would mention it.

Most scholars would agree that Martin Hengel was the greatest biblical scholar of the last 50 years or so. Certainly he would be the most widely respected among orthodox biblical scholars… He was not Catholic, although I believe Pope Benedict consulted with him.

Anyway, here are some comments from his book “The Four Gospels and the One Gospel of Jesus Christ”. About the superscriptions (titles like Mark) ;
  1. The superscriptions were "completely uniform by the 2nd century…Their original form …incriptio or subsciptio, is always the same…This goes against the form customary in ancient book titles, in which the name of the author is put first in the genitive and followed by the title of the book (p 48).
  2. “The unusual titles of the Gospels already indicate that the evangelists are not meant to appear as ‘biographical’…but to bear witness” (p 49) which is considered the highest form of true history in the ancient world (for interesting background on this read Richard Bauckham’s “Jesus and the Eyewitnesses”) .
  3. “The superscriptions were not added to the Gospels secondarily, or at a later time” (p 50).
  4. “The strange uniformity and early attestation of the titles of the Gospels excludes the possibility that for a long time they had been circulating anonymously in the communities or even that…they had received these titles as a secondary addition or that these titles had even been changed. For if they had circulated anonymously and had been given their titles only at a secondary stage and independently of one another in the different communities, because a title was needed for announcing the reading in worship, this must necessarily have resulted in a diversity of titles…Why…Matthew, Mark, Luke and John…There is no trace of such anonymity. Not only the complete uniformity of the titles from Alexandria to Lyons and from Antioch to Carthage…also manifold references in …2nd century…show their great age” (p 54)
In short, Hengel argues that they were called Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John from the first. That there is overwhelming evidence of this from the earliest church history. And that we have not a shadow anyone, anywhere, ever calling them anything else.

God bless, Annem
I’ve read a lot of scripture scholars and never heard of this person. I’ve read a lot of Biblical commentaries and never heard of him. Has he contributed to any respectable, widely known biblical commentaries? Did he write any books?

I doubt he’s anywhere near as influential in the scholarly community as you claim. And so, any conclusions you say he has carry less weight.

Who is he?
 
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