Who wrote the Koran

[Montalban]

“According to Muslim belief, the Koran is the eternal, unaltered Word of God, which has remained the same for 14 centuries.”
geocities.com/islampencereleri3/querying_the_koran.htm

“For the first time in history, we have a built-in proof that a scripture (Quran) is the unaltered, original and complete word of God. A proof that is verifiable by anyone”

angelfire.com/az2/submission/proof.html

They believe it’s never been altered and is word for word what their god actually said. This is refuted by the Koran itself which has Muhammed adding his own voice to it.

Who wrote the Koran?

Some people have raised on other posts issues such as the incompleteness of the Koran (Hadith refer to Suras that don’t exist in the Koran).

I am interested in the authorship of the Koran; it is claimed by some to be only the word-for-word utterances of al-lah

The very beginning of the Koran states…

1 In the Name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.

2 All the praises and thanks be to Allah, the Lord of the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns and all that exists).

3 The Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.

4 The Only Owner (and the Only Ruling Judge) of the Day of Recompense (i.e. the Day of Resurrection)

5 You (Alone) we worship, and You (Alone) we ask for help (for each and everything).

6 Guide us to the Straight Way

7 The Way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace, not (the way) of those who earned Your Anger (such as the Jews), nor of those who went astray (such as the Christians).

Clearly these are the words of Muhammed, speaking to and about Al-lah, they are not the words of al-lah. Unless they believe that Al-lah is saying “In my own name”

6:114

“Shall I seek a judge other than Allah while it is He Who has sent down unto you the Book (The Qur’an), explained in detail.” Those unto whom We gave the Scripture [the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] know that it is revealed from your Lord in truth. So be not you of those who doubt.

These too, are the words of Muhammed.

Even more clear, is where Muhammed names himself…

6: 101 He is the Originator of the heavens and the earth. How can He have children when He has no wife? He created all things and He is the All-Knower of everything .

102 Such is Allah, your Lord! La ilaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He), the Creator of all things. So worship Him (Alone), and He is the Wakil (Trustee, Disposer of affairs, Guardian, etc.) over all things.

103 No vision can grasp Him, but His Grasp is over all vision. He is the Most Subtle and Courteous, WellAcquainted with all things.

104 Verily, proofs have come to you from your Lord, so whosoever sees, will do so for (the good of) his ownself, and whosoever blinds himself, will do so to his own harm, and I (Muhammad ) am not a watcher over you.

 

[Montalban]

51: 50 So flee to Allah (from His Torment to His Mercy Islamic Monotheism), verily, I (Muhammad ) am a plain warner to you from Him.

Another that shows that Muhammad was the originator of the Koran.

 

[inJESUS]

yes many things in Quran are spoken by Muhammad. Usually Muslims will tell you that Allah asked Muhammad to utter them because you find the verb “SAY” before the verse. However muhammad forgot to add the verb before the Al-Fatiha which you posted in the OP.

to me, this is a proof that Quran is written not only by a human being, but by an ignorant one :

How can Allah have a son if he has no CONSORT?

(regarding Jesus’ title)

obviously this idiotic question cannot come from the all-knowing God but only from an ignorant human who has nothing on his mind except sexual thoughts.

 

[Montalban]

yes many things in Quran are spoken by Muhammad. Usually Muslims will tell you that Allah asked Muhammad to utter them because you find the verb “SAY” before the verse. However muhammad forgot to add the verb before the Al-Fatiha which you posted in the OP.

to me, this is a proof that Quran is written not only by a human being, but by an ignorant one :

How can Allah have a son if he has no CONSORT?

(regarding Jesus’ title)

obviously this idiotic question cannot come from the all-knowing God but only from an ignorant human who has nothing on his mind except sexual thoughts.

Islam also preaches that Jesus was just another man, but had no father - for Mary was still a Virgin.

They can’t make up their minds

 

[deb1]

Obviously I don’t believe that the Koran is written by God, as I am not Muslim nor plan on becoming one.

What would be the use of picking apart someone else’s Holy Scripture? You offend them and win no converts to our faith.

 

[Montalban]

Obviously I don’t believe that the Koran is written by God, as I am not Muslim nor plan on becoming one.

What would be the use of picking apart someone else’s Holy Scripture? You offend them and win no converts to our faith.

What is the point of open discussion, informing people about types of arguments?

Yes, I’m compelling Moslems to read this !

 

[deb1]

What is the point of open discussion, informing people about types of arguments?

Yes, I’m compelling Moslems to read this !

From the tone of some of the posts debating Muslims, I am guessing that my view is in the minority.

I think that the point of allowing Muslims on a Catholic board is either to learn about their religion, explain your own religion, or to convert Muslim’s to Christianity.

Offending others doesn’t seem to accomplish any of these goals. If I went on a Islamic board, I would be highly upset by a thread informing me that God didn’t write scripture. Such a discussion would not help me to convert but might form a prejudice in me against Islam.

Sorry if I upset you, Montalban, that wasn’t my intent.( I am pretty certain that I agree with you on most threads) You are correct in that you can start a thread on almost any subject you desire. That is one of the reasons that I love this forum.

 

[Montalban]

From the tone of some of the posts debating Muslims, I am guessing that my view is in the minority.

Perhaps. However never fear upsetting someone when speaking the truth.

I think that the point of allowing Muslims on a Catholic board is either to learn about their religion, explain your own religion, or to convert Muslim’s to Christianity.

I don’t. Although Moslems will engage me in discussion, I always feel that the people on the side-lines watching the discussion will learn more than either myself or my opponents; they’ll see how each argument can stand up.

Offending others doesn’t seem to accomplish any of these goals.

Those who say nothing whilst evils go on, condone it.

If I went on a Islamic board, I would be highly upset by a thread informing me that God didn’t write scripture.

I wouldn’t. God didn’t write my scripture.

Such a discussion would not help me to convert but might form a prejudice in me against Islam.

I’m glad. The last thing I’d want to hear is you’d become a Moslem

 

[inJESUS]

Islam also preaches that Jesus was just another man, but had no father - for Mary was still a Virgin.

They can’t make up their minds

that’s because Muhammad picked and chose…and he wasn’t very knowlegeable since he chose things ( virgin birth) that contradict his teachings about Jesus being “just a man”. He even said Jesus is God’s word and God’s Spirit as if God’s word is different than God…He chose things from Talmud as well as apocryphal gospels and Judeo-Christian legends…but where will Muhammad hide from his Lord Jesus?

 

[inJESUS]

btw Deb1, in Christian-Muslim dialogues, both sides will be offended. But guess what? Christians will be offended MUCH more because Muslims believe our Bible is corrupt ( first offence to God and to us) and no matter what you tell them they will not believe you , otherwise they’ll become Christians. Second, they insult us by saying Jesus is just a prophet, that he was not crucified and that He is not the Son of God. The Quran itself is an insult to Jesus…it contradicts merely everything we hold ttrue except virgin birth and Jesus’ miracles.

i personally do not understand what a Muslim, who believes our Bible is corrupt, does on this forum. If he accepts no scripture, then how can you talk to him?

Likewise Muslims will be offended when you say Muhammad is a false prophet as per Jesus’ prophecy. And that he was immoral as per Jesus’ teachings and that he is an anti-Christ as per Jesus, St. John and St. Paul’s teachings.

So better forget the “offending” feelings cuz it’s a matter of fact cuz his book says we will rot in hell, and the Bible says Muhammad is an anti-Christ. However, offending a Muslim as a person is not allowed of course.

 

[Montalban]

that’s because Muhammad picked and chose…and he wasn’t very knowlegeable since he chose things ( virgin birth) that contradict his teachings about Jesus being “just a man”. He even said Jesus is God’s word and God’s Spirit as if God’s word is different than God…He chose things from Talmud as well as apocryphal gospels and Judeo-Christian legends…but where will Muhammad hide from his Lord Jesus?

In Islam:
Isn’t there also something about the fact that Jesus will judge us all?

Islam’s own muddled idea of Christianity is one of the biggest pointers that it’s not inspired by God.

 

[meedo]

Hello

The answer for your question is teh following

God Authored the Quran
Muhammed recited it to the people
scribes wrote the Quran

thanks

 

[Montalban]

Hello

The answer for your question is teh following

God Authored the Quran
Muhammed recited it to the people
scribes wrote the Quran

thanks

Which is negated by the use of the 1st person by Muhammed.

God would not be saying “I Muhammed…”

 

[Montalban]

Hello

The answer for your question is the following

God Authored the Quran
Muhammad recited it to the people
scribes wrote the Quran

thanks

Muhammad is not meant to have inserted anything of his own into the Koran, but clearly in reciting it, he talks in 1st person - showing that Muhammad’s the speaker (not just repeating the words of your god).

It thus shows that the Koran is not fully the words of your god.

There’s other many examples too. Here’s but another
51: 50 So flee to Allah (from His Torment to His Mercy Islamic Monotheism), verily, I (Muhammad ) am a plain warner to you from Him.

There’s also the examples of the “Satanic Verses” too, when it is believed by Moslems that Satan tricked Muhammad into making a ‘revelation’. Interestingly enough it was Muhammad who decided that the verses were from Satan. Yet he could only tell post facto.

 

[meedo]

When we read the Quran we say ‘’ In the Name of Allah ‘’

Thats is how we were ordered to read. So your point is invalid.

salam

 

[cestusdei]

The koran was put together over a long period of time. Muhammed was exposed to a variety of religious experiences including exposure to some heretical Christian sects. He put that together with Judaism and a smattering of paganism. Sometimes he would forget surah’s that he had recited. They were not written down or collected until after his death. At first there was no canonized collection at all. Some surah’s were lost when the ones who knew them died others never got written down and others were lost when the material they were written on deteriorated. Various collections were put together.

Finally because of the differences Uthman ordered one version to be made and then the others destroyed, so they could false claim they had the one true koran. Some variants survived however, ooops. Also the text on the dome of the rock does not exactly match the Uthman text. In Yeman variant texts were found that don’t match the current koran.

So in fact we don’t know if the koran accurately tells us anything that Muhammed actually said. We have no originals or voice recordings. We have only texts put together decades later and then redacted by Uthman. Some things got left out. What we do have is a mixture that shows influences by other religious movements of the era. One could argue that the koran was in fact written by Uthman. Certainly God had nothing to do with it.

 

[Sixtus]

Who wrote the Koran?

What are you trying to prove?

If you are really concerned about violence, I suggest you find out who wrote the texts which authorise the use of abortion. That has singularly killed more people than even the Nazi Holocaust.

Moselms are peace loving people. Yes, they have their fundamentlists who use religion as a vehicle to propagate war, but so too Christianity. Look on the net and see the Protestant Fundamentalist groups who are inviting you to ‘hurt your Catholic neighbour’.

I am more scared of the Protestant fundamentalists than I am Islam. I think the fundamentalists are pushing us together.

 

[inJESUS]

Sixtus, you already said this more than 3 times already.

The thread is not about violence.

 

[Montalban]

When we read the Quran we say ‘’ In the Name of Allah ‘’

Thats is how we were ordered to read. So your point is invalid.

Excepting that it’s an indicator of who the speaker is. Note when Muhammed talks with him being the first person signular “I” …did this or that…

 

[Montalban]

What are you trying to prove?

That the Koran was originated in Muhammad. I thought the OP stated that. Hope this clears things up.

If you are really concerned about violence, I suggest you find out who wrote the texts which authorise the use of abortion. That has singularly killed more people than even the Nazi Holocaust.

IF only this thread was about that.

Moslems are peace loving people. Yes, they have their fundamentalists who use religion as a vehicle to propagate war, but so too Christianity. Look on the net and see the Protestant Fundamentalist groups who are inviting you to ‘hurt your Catholic neighbour’.

Moslem attitudes to violence are for another thread.

I am more scared of the Protestant fundamentalists than I am Islam. I think the fundamentalists are pushing us together.

So you keep saying - on many threads. What’s this got to do with the OP?