"Whoever dies with the most toys, wins."

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reen12

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What of time?

C.S. Lewis woke me up, in terms of ‘owning’ time.
He stated that human beings had this notion that
time belonged to them. Yet since our next breath
is of God, to say that we gave our time to do
“good works” is preposterous on it’s face.
God keeps us in existence each moment.
He ‘intends’ our existence, in any moment of time.
We do not give of our ‘surplus’ time. For
there is no such thing as surplus, when it comes
to time. We don’t even “own” ourselves.

All that we “own” is subject to temporality.
Past generations used one syllable words
to convey their understanding of same.
“You can’t take it with you.”
Bouncing off this insight, in a parody of
same:
“Whoever dies with the most toys, wins.”
And still another expression?
“You take to heaven only that which you
gave away.” I found this last most annoying.
Sounded pretty smarmy to me. :coffeeread:

Yet all of the above, cobbled together,
fails to go to the heart of the reality, I think.
We are creatures created by Another.
Anything of which we say “This is mine,”
is perfectly preposterous. Ask Job.
One minute, he’s awash in this world’s goods,
and the next moment he’s sitting in a
pile of ashes, trying to treat his boils -
calamity having walked up and “stolen”
all that was dear to him.

Job understood all that there is to know, about ‘ownership.’
“The Lord has given, and the Lord has taken away.
Blessed be the name of the Lord.”

reen
 
I should have noted that I am indebted to another -
for setting me along the path of thinking about ‘surplus,’
and that I am grateful for same. 🙂

reen12
 
Amen reen! Blessed be the Name of the Lord!!!
Blessed are You,Lord, God of all creation.
Through Your goodness we have this bread to offer,
Which earth has given and human hands have made.
It will become for us the Bread of Life.

Blessed are You Lord, God of all creation.
Through Your goodness we have this wine to offer,
fruit of the vine and work of human hands.
It will become our spiritual drink.

Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.
Hosanna in the highest.

I think Our Lord has a much more expansive definition of “toys” than we do. Blessed be He!
His is all Time and Eternity,Blessed be He!
All the seraphim, cherubim,and thrones Throw down their crowns and say,Blessed be He! Amen!
 
quote: sawman
All the seraphim, cherubim,and thrones Throw down their crowns and say,Blessed be He! Amen!
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God bless you, sawman.
“All shall be well…and all manner of things shall be well.”
-Julian of Norwich

Revelation 4, 5

[Day and night, they cease not their eternal adoration]
“Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty, Who was, and Who is, and Who is to come.”

[The elders] throw down their crowns before the throne, crying out:
“Worthy are You, Lord our God, to receive glory and honor and power, for You created all things - because of Your will they came to be, and were created.”

Then I saw standing in the midst of the throne…a Lamb that seemed to have been slain.
…[they]…fell down before the Lamb…
They sang a new hymn:

"Worthy are You…for You were slain - and with Your blood You purchased for God those from every tribe and tongue, people and nation.

I looked again and heard the voices of many angels who surrounded the throne…
They were countless in number, and they cried out in a loud voice:

Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches, wisdom and strength, honor and glory and blessing.



Maranatha. Come, Lord Jesus, Anointed of God.

reen
 
In the year king Uzziah died,I saw the Lord seated on a high and lofty throne,with the train of His garment filling the temple.
Seraphim were stationed above;each of them had six wings: with two they veiled their faces,with two they veiled their feet,and with two they hovered aloft.

“HOLY, HOLY, HOLY is the Lord God of Hosts!”
they cried one to the other.
“All the earth is full of His Glory!”
At the sound of that cry,
The frame of the threshold
shook
and the house was filled with Smoke.

HOLY is the HOLIEST of HOLIES!!
Blessed be He!
We worship Him who was slain! All Praise and Honor and Glory,Might and Power be His forever and ever!!

Blessed be He!

Thank you reen!
 
quote: sawman
Blessed be He!

Thank you reen!
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Thank you, sawman, for conveying your understanding
of how one may be swept up, by these glorious revelations -
which revelations are expressed through magnificent language.

Words - as servants of the Word, and of His Father.

The Ancient of Days Antiquus Dierum

7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, Whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of His head like the pure wool: His throne was like the fiery flame, and His wheels as burning fire.

7:13-14 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought Him near before Him, and there was given Him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve Him: His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and His kingdom that which shall not be destroyed."
-The Book of Daniel

bp2.blogger.com/_7aolyDs4tmo/R_DI8Iz8i4I/AAAAAAAAAUU/1-wSEhaeVx4/s1600-h/PIC+2.jpg
St. Paul, referring to Christ Jesus, in the letter to the Hebrews, 2:8

“You have put all thing in subjection under His feet. For in that He put all in subjection under Him, He left nothing that is not put under Him.”

Christ will come again, and all things shall be well, as He comes with His Kingdom, in glory.
reen12
 
All you servants of the Lord, sing praise to Him.

Bless the Lord,all you works of the Lord.
Praise and exalt Him above all forever.
Angels of the Lord, bless the Lord.
You heavens, bless the Lord.
All you waters above the heavens, bless the Lord.
All you hosts of the Lord, bless the Lord.
Sun and moon, bless the Lord.
Stars of heaven, bless the Lord.
…
Priests of theLord, bless the Lord.
Servants of the Lord, bless the Lord.
Spirits and souls of the just, bless the Lord.
Holy men of humble heart, bless the Lord.
Hananiah, Azariah, Mishael, bless the Lord.
Praise and exalt Him above all forever!

Blessed are You,Lord, in the firmament of heaven!
Praiseworthy and Glorious and exalted above all forever!

Book of Daniel

Dear reen, I really like your little quote at the end of your posts. It reminds me of when I was a little kid.
Any way, how can anyone pray a prayer like that and have any notion of surplus, ownership, or even to some extent,self? I read a quote somewhere a few months ago,that went like this.“self perception is not a requirement, only God’s awareness of us is nesessary.”

Blessed be He!
 
quote: sawman
…how can anyone pray a prayer like that and have any notion of surplus, ownership, or even to some extent,self?
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I understand, sawman.

The self is enraptured and filled with His light.
We cannot contain our wonder.

Canticle of the Sun

And first, my Lord, Brother Sun -
Who brings the day; and light You give to us, through him.
How beautiful is he, how radiant in all his splendor!
Of you, Most High, he bears the likeness…

-St. Francis of Assisi

And Revelation speaks of ‘…a woman, clothed with the sun…’

“And there appeared a great sign in heaven, a woman clothed with the Sun, and the Moon under her feet…”
-Revelations 12

therosarylady.com/olofgrace.jpg

God imbues creation with His grace. All created things are informed by Him.

In some real way, to see His creatures is to see Him.

reen
 
Thank-you for sharing those thoughts. I am better off for having had this exchange of His Word and our (inspired) thoughts.
 
Well here it is almost a month latter, and low and behold, you have inspired yet another…both of you. I found i read with a hunger actually, of things i do not know, and what might be out there. I have to admit, i often worry about whom to believe, and say very little, but i trust this poster Reen.

FIRST
First i found the entire idea of Angels a great expression of Godly praise, and beauty of thought and minds…help me here, as in the past i have heard there are different levels of Angels. I have heard the terms used like these before…

All the seraphim, cherubim,and thrones Throw down their crowns and say,Blessed be He! Amen!

I have seen these words (or titles/ranks) used before in written form, in passing, and in song. Can either of you explain the difference to me. I was once told that one of them are the closest to the Lord and does not leave heaven. The next works wonders for people, saints and are mainly the go betweens from heaven and earth. The farthest is simply an angel, and only they can gather the immense strength to pass over into our world, and help us in this manner.

Now knowing this, i never had it confirmed by anyone, or the actual debth of exactly which is which, and what their jobs and boundaries are…that is what i wonder…

SECOND
In the year king Uzziah died,I saw the Lord seated on a high and lofty throne,with the train of His garment filling the temple.
Seraphim were stationed above;each of them had six wings: with two they veiled their faces,with two they veiled their feet,and with two they hovered aloft.

What does this mean…of course the difference of the notion an angel has but two wings, like a bird is the first thought i see a difference in. However, being closer to our Lord, i wondered the reason for the veiling gestures as a whole. I believe Angels are Born anges, and we do not become angels in heaven. So, this act of veiling i wonder how it is used in this situation. If they were never human , why veil…is it out of respect, or shame. I am not questioning this, just trying to completely understand it.

THIRD
“self perception is not a requirement, only God’s awareness of us is nesessary.”

Oh how this is such a mouthful. In this i see so many different angles to go for, but will go with my gut here. We percieve ourselves as worthy, unworthy, or even invisable in some cases because of our experiences in life. This is another wonderful reason why showing one Gods way can show us a better sense of worthyness. When we do not have a teacher or role model to “mirror” such lifestyles, we become the vicum of very poor parenting or guardianship from others around us.

We know God is in everyone, and when we release him, and use his ways, kindnesses and compassion through loving acts, we love God in showmanship and love for his people. Only this lifestyle, the awareness of how important it is to love unconditionally, can we truly feel Gods awareness of us.

To truly do Gods work, we admit to his beautiful ways, and accept that we will never be able to do it alone. It is then a partnership with your Master of Love. This is what is nescesary for completeness, as it will never arive without the full trust and bond you bring into your act of friendship with him, and pass it on as his new deciple.

He no longer has hands, feet or a mouth to work his deeds, but trusts in our partnerships with him, together we can sucseed at doing his works. Not even he can physically touch us since he died and left this earth, and this is where the Holy Spirit comes in to play. THAT is Gods touch now, that is Gods resource to fill us with. Other wise we act with only Part of HIM.

There is leadership in the Father, a teacher in the Son, and the power of his healing touch, wonderment and heartbeat in listening and befriending the Holy Spirit. Without the Holy Spirit, it is like Knowing a parent, without ever knowing a hug!

Lana
 
quote: Rammy
I have heard the terms used like these before…

All the seraphim, cherubim,and thrones Throw down their crowns and say,Blessed be He! Amen!

I have seen these words (or titles/ranks) used before in written form, in passing, and in song. Can either of you explain the difference to me.
Click to expand...
I checked with the online Catholic Encyclopedia, because my recall, of the orders of angels, surely needed to be refreshed. :coffeeread:

Cherubim means ‘to be near.’
Cherubim are close to the throne of God, and bear up His throne.

Two Cherubim were part of the Ark of the Covenant.
This was the structure wherein the ‘Shekinah’ - the presence of God, dwelt.
The Ark of the Covenant was built to the specific instructions, given by God.
The Ark was carried in front of His people, Israel.

You can see the two Cherubim in this drawing:

aeragon.com/00/zzz-01/Kohath-02.jpg

**Seraphim **are the highest order of angels. They continually call out His glory.
They are His servants, and they minister to Him.

I think that the point that needs stressing, is that human beings
have bodies, with senses, whereas the angels do not.

Human beings can rejoice in God’s physical creation.
They “apprehend” the world through the five senses, given
to them by God. [hearing, sight, sense of smell, taste,
and the “tactile” sense, i.e., we can physically “feel” creation.]
Angels can do no such thing. They are pure spirit, created by God.

The angels were sometimes sent by God, as His messengers.
Gabriel was sent to bring His message to Mary.
Uriel, in the Old Testament [Hebrew Scriptures], was sent
to help Tobias, if I recall, correctly. Angels brought comfort
to Jesus, in the Garden of Gethsemani, and an angel brought
word to Zachary, that his wife, in advanced age, would bear
him a son. Zachary’s son was the cousin of Jesus, John the Baptist.

I hope this is at least somewhat clear. 🙂

reens
 
Correction to the above post.
It was Raphael, not Uriel, who helped Tobias.

reen12
 
Thank you 12…so this means Seraphim are the closest angels to our Father in heaven. Cherubim are the ones closest to the throne that was carrying the Ark of the Covanant in front of his people. And then there are regular Angels that often have been seen due to the work they do by being messengers of the Lord.

Now i get it…i think…😉

Any more you can offer on the second question or third i had as well?

Lana
 
Dear Rammy,
Thank you for bringing this thread back today!

I resolved after Mass this morning to make sure I found an appropriate Psalm or Canticle to praise Him with during prayers. The Canticle was the same one as in this post!

Your question about angels and their positions or stations or rank in relation to each other and or God is one I am not very qualified to answer. I can only share with you what I know and what I intuit about them.

The very first thing about these creatures is what they are shown to be doing in Holy Scriptures, Praise, Worship, Adoration. This is what has always inspired me about them. I think that the passages that Reen and I were quoteing and alluding to are some of the most moving and sublime passages in all of scripture. There are many others as well. Something in Reen’s OP combined with a particular struggle and trial I was( and am still) struggling with, made express myself that way. Blessed be He!
The reference to Lewis brought to mind the theophany at the end of Perelandra which casscaded into some of my favorite theophanies from scripture and mass.

Any way, the way I understand angelic rank goes like this;
Seraphim
Cherubim
Thrones
Dominions
Powers
Virtues
Principalities
Archangels
Angels

This listing if I understand rightly, is a speculative thing. All listings of angelic rank and duties are speculative, and therefore not a matter of faith required for salvation. Those of us who have done all the heavy lifting on angelic things are some of the greatest minds that ever lived, and even they had some disputes about this kind of stuff.

Seraphim, from what I understand, are the seven spirits who see God face to face. They are living flames because they are so joined to God ,that they are part of God’s own fire of love.

Cherubim, hold up the Mercy Seat Of God, like Reen said, they’re on the Ark of the Covenant. They’re also in the book of Ezekiel.

All the names of the angelic hosts, the names of the ranks I mean are from various scriptures. I hope this kind of helps. I’m embarrassed. I’m rambling. Sorry.
 
Thinking further of angels, I recall C.S.Lewis writing that the angels are of
such magnificence that - were we not to know better - if we
saw an angel we would be tempted to fall down in worship.

Yet an angel is a being created by God -as we were created, too.
Angels are of titanic might - nearly beyond human ability to comprehend -
that such a stupendous being, could be a creature, not a god.

And Lewis noted, as well, that sometimes - when an angel
is sent to speak with a human being - it is understandable
that their opening words are “fear not.”
Such might is beyond the ken of human experience.

fp.thebeers.f9.co.uk/images/AngelGabriel.jpg

Once, when [Zachariah] was serving as priest…
…the angel of the Lord appeared to him, standing at the right of the altar of incense.
Zechariah was troubled by what he saw, and fear came upon him.
But the angel said to him,"Do not be afraid, Zechariah…"Luke1:19

sligocreek.com/Images/Section_Images/Arch-RaphaelL.JPG

And yet the psalmist says:

What is man - that Thou art mindful of him?
Or the son of man, that Thou art concerned about him?
Yet Thou hast created him little less than the angels,
Thou hast crowned him with glory and honor…

God gave to us human beings, what He did not give to even His angels. He gives to us the capacity to experience the
world that He created - in a way that the angels will never know.
An angel apprehends through intellect alone.

God saved - for man alone, the gift of incarnated being. Man is flesh, and he can hear and see and touch and smell God’s
created world. To man, He gave the gift to say,* L’Chaim *!
To life! - as man expereinces the glory of His creation,
created just for him. And, “in the fullness of time,”
God Himself took on flesh.

"And the Word became incarnate, and dwelt among us.

Glory to Thee, O Lord.

reen12
 
quote: sawman
I think that the passages…are some of the most moving and sublime passages in all of scripture.
Click to expand...
Sawman, I see this as you do.

quote: Sawman
The reference to Lewis brought to mind the theophany at the end of Perelandra which casscaded into some of my favorite theophanies from scripture and mass.
Click to expand...
I, too, was thinking about Perelandra. And “casscade”
is a beautiful word, in this context.

After the words “…and the Word became flesh,” St. John
takes us to the end of time -
Cherubim and Seraphim crying out - in the presence of
Reality Himself

“Worthy are You, Lord our God, to receive glory and honor and power, for You created all things - because of Your will they came to be, and were created.”

Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches, wisdom and strength, honor and glory and blessing.

This is what we were created for. To be creatures who
will stand with the Archangels, hymning the glory and
the grandeur of God - throughtout all eternity. And God will
make us such that we will be able to bear “the weight of glory”
that is to come.

reen12
 
Thank you Reen!

You are so much better at expressing this suff than I am !!

Yes, we in the end, and sometimes even now , in our bodies, are able to be “caught up” in worship, along with our fellow creatures the Great Ones, and have a glimpse of our calling.

To be in the presence of the Lamb who was slain, at mass, to behold His presence in the body and blood!!

To be able to have the privelege to speak praise in such company!
Taste of Heaven!
Christ the power of God!
 
Thank you Rammy,

For giving me a chance to be caught up in the spirit on the Lord’s day.

To behold the seven gold lampstands

and in their midst, one like a son of man! !

Peace be to all!
 
quote: sawman
Yes, we in the end, and sometimes even now , in our bodies, are able to be “caught up” in worship, along with our fellow creatures the Great Ones, and have a glimpse of our calling.
Click to expand...
quote: sawman
“…and have a glimpse of our calling.”
Click to expand...
What a beautiful way to state the reality, sawman.
“…our calling.” And being swept up into God at
times of His choosing, we do get a ‘glimpse’ of
what is to come. Our eternal ‘calling,’ as you said.
What a blessing it is to me, sawman, to have read your words.

One of the many reasons, why I am grateful to Lana, is that
she taught me that words alone cannot convey all of reality.
And Christ, Himself, created “pictures” that we could consult.
The Good Shepherd, The Good Samaritan, the owner of the
vineyard, the lilies of the field. Christ had compassion, in
giving us these images, for He knows that we are poor, weak
creatures - and that we need God’s help to understand, and to
remember things. That we long remember a story, rather than stark statements.
And the 23rd Psalm is so beloved, because the image of a green pasture,
where He gives us repose and cares for us, calms the human mind, heart and soul.

In this context, that which Augustine said is so very true.
“You have made us for Yourself, O Lord, and our hearts
are restless, until they rest in Thee.”

Stories and images - that so comfort here, will give way, one day,
to the presence of Comfort Himself, to the God of Mercy, Who created us.

reen
 
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