"Whole Households Were Baptized" ......... *Except for Infants?

[DWash]

Yet, curiously, Matthew 28 says: Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

Baptize first, then teach.

Jon

Seems it says to make disciples first, then baptize. Can infants be made a disciple when being a disciple means to be a student of or follower of.

 

[Randy_Carson]

INFANT BAPTISM PROVED FROM SCRIPTURE

Old Covenant

Genesis 17:9-14
9 Then God said to Abraham, “As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. 10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. 12 For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner—those who are not your offspring. 13 Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant. 14 Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.”

Leviticus 12:3
3 On the eighth day the boy is to be circumcised.

These texts show the circumcision of eight-day-old babies as the way of entering into the Old Covenant.

Connection to New Covenant

Col 2:11-12
In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of flesh in the circumcision of Christ; 12and you were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

Baptism is the new “circumcision of Christ” for all people of the New Covenant.

 

[JonNC]

Seems it says to make disciples first, then baptize. Can infants be made a disciple when being a disciple means to be a student of or follower of.

It says to go make disciples. Then it explains*** how*** to make disciples - Baptize and teach.

D, simply because your household doesn’t have infants, that doesn’t mean all households don’t have infants. Many, obviously, do.
But, again, as I said earlier, the issue isn’t about who to baptize and when, the difference between those who baptize infants and those who don’t usually has to do with what one believes baptism does, and who does the doing.

And yes, an infant can be made into a disciple. That’s why parents, godparents, and the congregation of believers are instructed to bring the child up in the Church, hearing the word of God and when the time comes receive the sacraments of the Eucharist and Holy Absolution. So, an infant, as he/she grows is becoming a disciple, and that’s exactly the way Christ’s words read.

Jon

 

[DWash]

So you also don’t believe that infants should have been circumcised, then, even under God’s orders? Do you think God lacks the power to mark babies as belonging to Him?

Edit: And also, because it’s relevant here, please show me where in the Bible we are use only the Bible as our final authority, and where in the Bible it says that your interpretation is correct.

I don’t think that Col 2 equates circumcism and baptism. Only boys were circumcised for obvious reasons. Should only boys be baptized?

I don’t understand you comment about God and marking babies. As I understand circumcism, it was a sign of obedience.

Is it fair to ask if the Bible says an individual’s interpretation is correct? That’s like saying “Show me where the Bible says your tradition is correct.”

 

[JonNC]

Sure.

INFANT BAPTISM PROVED FROM SCRIPTURE

Old Covenant

Genesis 17:9-14
9 Then God said to Abraham, “As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. 10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. 12 For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner—those who are not your offspring. 13 Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant. 14 Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.”

Leviticus 12:3
3 On the eighth day the boy is to be circumcised.

These texts show the circumcision of eight-day-old babies as the way of entering into the Old Covenant.

Connection to New Covenant

Col 2:11-12
In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of flesh in the circumcision of Christ; 12and you were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

Baptism is the new “circumcision of Christ” for all people of the New Covenant.

The connection is astoundingly obvious.

Jon

 

[DWash]

The connection is astoundingly obvious.

Jon

Col 2:11-12
In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of flesh in the circumcision of Christ; 12and you were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

There are two different things being spoken of here: circumcision done without hands (not OT circumcism) AND baptism. If the were the same one being of the OT and one being of the NT, IMO, there’d be a different sentence structure.

 

[JonNC]

Col 2:11-12
In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of flesh in the circumcision of Christ; 12and you were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

There are two different things being spoken of here: circumcision done without hands (not OT circumcism) AND baptism. If the were the same one being of the OT and one being of the NT, IMO, there’d be a different sentence structure.

No, its the same thing. The and connects the two.

Jon

 

[DWash]

IMHO, As long as baptism is seen only as an initiation and a manifestation of belief, not as a necessity for salvation and a grace from God, infant baptism will not make sense.

IMO, what doesn’t make sense is that God would look at the soul of a dead infant and say it can’t go to Heaven because it was not baptized.

 

[DWash]

No, its the same thing. The and connects the two.

Jon

I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree and wait on the Holy Spirit to change the mind of the one of us that needs to have our mind changed.

 

[JonNC]

IMO, what doesn’t make sense is that God would look at the soul of a dead infant and say it can’t go to Heaven because it was not baptized.

I can’t imagine that, either. So, while Christ tells us the default for humans, in bondage to sin, death, and the devil, is believe and be baptized, that doesn’t limit how God can exercise His grace, and we should pray for His grace in this way.

Jon

 

[DebChris]

Faith develops within a community of believers and one of the gifts of the Sacrament of Baptism is the ability to believe.

In Luke 1:15 Zechariah is promised that his son John will be filled with the Holy Spirit even from the womb. John leaps for joy when he recognizes Jesus even while still in Elizabeth’s womb.

If Jesus accepts all children, does it mean that they need to believe before they are accepted? Through Baptism, they are incorporated into the community of believers. They become part of God’s people. They learn about God from the community of believers to which they belong. From childhood, they are disciples, students of Christ. As mentioned earlier, Baptism is only the beginning of a person’s faith journey. Even if an adult believes that Jesus is the Son of God and chooses to be baptized, he/she likewise becomes a student, a disciple who continues to learn and grow in that faith throughout his or her lifetime.

No, not all households have children or infants; but more often than not they do. The households of ancient times did not only include the children and infants of the head of the household. It also included the household slaves and their offspring as well.

 

[DWash]

I can’t imagine that, either. So, while Christ tells us the default for humans, in bondage to sin, death, and the devil, is believe and be baptized, that doesn’t limit how God can exercise His grace, and we should pray for His grace in this way.

Jon

I appreciate the order of your comment and is one major reason I don’t think babies need to be baptized when you said, “believe and be baptized” I couldn’t have said it better myself.

 

[Porknpie]

I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree and wait on the Holy Spirit to change the mind of the one of us that needs to have our mind changed.

DWash, do you believe the bible when it states that Jesus taught his 12 apostles for three years (plus 40 days) and that the apostles then went forth and preached the gospel to the nations?