Whore of Babylon, Hypocrites, and Nazi's

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Honestly, when I see these things said about Catholics, I now…LAUGH. Haha! So ridiculous it’s funny. I just saw a comment saying something about a tie between Jesuits and Communism. Lol And that “The pope is a Nazi” and “The Catholic Church and the Holocaust”…Why do people say that?

At Mass the Priest spends time saying how we should Love our Protestant Brothers, and how God loves them too…and What to their Pastors or Ministers tell them!?

Eeeesh, how do we “de-bunk” these accusations?
 
Honestly, when I see these things said about Catholics, I now…LAUGH. Haha! So ridiculous it’s funny. I just saw a comment saying something about a tie between Jesuits and Communism. Lol And that “The pope is a Nazi” and “The Catholic Church and the Holocaust”…Why do people say that?

At Mass the Priest spends time saying how we should Love our Protestant Brothers, and how God loves them too…and What to their Pastors or Ministers tell them!?

Eeeesh, how do we “de-bunk” these accusations?
Gently.

Pius XII was honored by Israel as a Righteous Gentile along with many other Catholics and Protestants. The head rabbi of Rome, having worked with Pius, converted after WWII taking Pius’ Christian name.

They say it because that is what they’ve been taught.
 
I made a generalization? The poster asked why some say these things. I said because that is what they’ve been taught…from their church, family, friends or what they’ve chosen to read. You hear something often enough it becomes true.
 
Honestly, when I see these things said about Catholics, I now…LAUGH. Haha! So ridiculous it’s funny. I just saw a comment saying something about a tie between Jesuits and Communism. Lol And that “The pope is a Nazi” and “The Catholic Church and the Holocaust”…Why do people say that?

At Mass the Priest spends time saying how we should Love our Protestant Brothers, and how God loves them too…and What to their Pastors or Ministers tell them!?

Eeeesh, how do we “de-bunk” these accusations?
Maria I assume from your age that you are 18. Am I correct?

The Black Legend ( the views that the Church is evil ) is as old as the reformation and is peddled by a tiny percentage of Protestants.

You have to understand as well that the vast majority of western Europeans and a good percentage of Americans are not Christians except in the most superficial and formal sense ( if that ) and really only engage with the Church insofar as they believe the Chruch has weird and restrictive views on sex and sexualiity. They think he Church is a right wing cult and are totally uninterested in any other view of it. Given this modern reality the old Black Legend finds itself transformed into a criticism of responsible sexual values by a libertine culture which sees the Church as the bastion of such values.
 
Guys,
we need to face Reality here.

First: it is 100% True that our Catholic church is NOT the Whore of Babylon,
…or more correctly, Babylon the Great, the great harlot, described in Revelation
chapter 17. There is NO character referred to in the bible as “the Whore of Babylon.”
The whore, herself, is NAMED Babylon the Great, it is a name emblazoned right on
her forehead. Again, there IS NO “whore of Babylon,” that name, though wildly popular,
is grossly erroneous. The whore, herself, IS “Babylon the Great.” I wish we could manage to get that straight, it is very embarassing because people familiar with Revelation 17 know that nobody is named or called “the whore OF Babylon.”

That being said, The Catholic Church IS NOT "Babylon the Great, " either.
Nor is the Catholic Church an advocate of Nazi-ism or any other evil ideology.

All that being said, these antiCatholic accusations are not totally without foundation.
But like all such things, what has been true of a relatively FEW Catholics in history,
is being painted across the face of the WHOLE Catholic World in a LIBELLOUS Generalization.

ALL of the top Nazi Leaders were born and raised in the CATHOLIC CHURCH, every last one of them. That is TRUE. But what our critics do not grasp, or even CARE to find out, is that EVERY LAST ONE of these Nazi leaders EXPLICITLY APOSTASIZED from the Catholic Church and openly denounced and ridiculed it up, down, sideways, and backwards. Hitler, an ex-Altar Boy, made it very clear that as soon as the War was over and the Nazis had won, he was going to utterly OBLITERATE the Catholic Church from all of Europe and, eventually, the World, because this megalomaniac actually believed that his Nazi-ism would one day literally rule the entire globe.

Another sad-but-true reality is that Nazi-Allied Slovakia, which was the first Nazi Satellite State to send Jews to Auschwitz to die, was RUN by a CATHOLIC Priest, Monsignor TISO, who was hanged by the Allies after the war. Not a pleasant fact to face, but TRUE nonetheless.

Croatia, during World War II, revived the centuries long hatreds between Serbs and Croats and, using Catholicism as a “front” for their racist nationalism (the Ustahis), murdered up to 1 million Eastern Orthodox Christian Serbians, including tens of thousands of little children whose throats often were slit. Not pleasant, but still true. And the huge JASENOVAC concentration camp in Croatia was run by a FRANCISCAN PRIEST named Father Miroslav Filipovich. Now, what our Enemies do not notice, is that “Father” Filipovich was, in fact, EXCOMMUNICATED.

I am not saying these things to give fodder to our enemies, but to face the FACT, as we all do in theory but resent sometimes in practice, that there have been MANY members of the Catholic Church, including clergy at times, who have done absolutely Beyond-Despicable things. But what our critics do not ADMIT, is that this is True of the members of ALL religions, including of ALL the historic post-Reformation NonCatholic Churches. They become LIVID with Rage if you point that out and hide behind stupid and false claims such as “WE (visualize noses in the air when they say that) do not follow ANY mere MAN, but only JESUS.” This is bunk. They attack our Sinners because they are hoping to associate our Catholic DOCTRINES with THESE SINNERS, when in fact their own unique fundy doctrines ORIGINATED in the very MINDS of men (Luther, Calvin, etc, who were intolerant and violent to the extreme and who literally HATED each other’s GUTS with a murderous passion so extreme that, when people read their writings against each other, they are shocked out of their WITS). What is good for the goose is good for the Gander, whethr our Enemies like it or not or want to face it or not. Period.
If OUR Sinners indicate that Our Doctrines are False, which is why they bring up our Sinners,
then the Brutality of the very ORIGINATORS of their Reformed Doctrines is, by default,
proof also of the falsehood of THEIR OWN doctrines and religions.
But we all know that, in both cases, that is bull-C**P. Doctrines are either true, or they aren’t, and whether Luther was a Saint or a Sinner, is irrelevant. If he was RIGHT on a given point, he was right. Period. His sins, he will answer for. Accuracy remains accuracy, regardless of the morality, or lack thereof, of the preacher or priest.
But make no mistake:
Our enemies harp about the Sins of some of our nominally=Catholic MEMBERS because they think that they THEREBY disprove our Doctrines.
They DON’T, not at ALL.
 
Honestly, when I see these things said about Catholics, I now…LAUGH. Haha! So ridiculous it’s funny. I just saw a comment saying something about a tie between Jesuits and Communism. Lol And that “The pope is a Nazi” and “The Catholic Church and the Holocaust”…Why do people say that?

At Mass the Priest spends time saying how we should Love our Protestant Brothers, and how God loves them too…and What to their Pastors or Ministers tell them!?

Eeeesh, how do we “de-bunk” these accusations?
I would look at it as this. Communists hate Nazis and Nazis hate Communism…so how can the Church be both Communist and Nazi?

Also the Church is the Church of God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Commies and Nazis are Atheists…so how does that work?

Honestly if those haters can’t see the faulty of their logic, they shouldn’t even be confronted.
 
Dear friend,
a couple of things.
The Commies and the Nazis really didn’t hate each other THAT much.
Hitler felt that Communism was somehow “jewish”, which it isn’t (but even Hilaire Belloc was under that false impression, too), so he did resent it to that extent.
But both the communists and the nazis, economically,
were SOCIALISTS.
And, until Hitler double-crossed the Soviets in World War II,
the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany got along with each other SPLENDIDLY.
In fact, they conspired TOGETHER to launch a JOINT invasion of CATHOLIC Poland,
which began World War II in earnest (though Chamberlain laid the ground work by buckling and granting the Sudetenland to Germany, and the Anschluss in Austria virtually guaranteed the war against the rest of Europe).
Until Hitler double crossed Stalin, the Communists and the Nazis were FRIENDS
and ALLIES.
Neither one of these ideologies had a JESUIT origin. The very claim is obscenely false.
Yet, there is a tad of a grain of truth.
Heinrich Himmler, who organized the Nazi S.S., was an exCatholic, and ADMIRED the Jesuits for their Organizational Skills, and he did openly claim that he was organizing the S.S. along the lines of a Jesuit style of organization. See how a “grain of truth” becomes blown up into something grossly false? Amazing.

As for the Commies and the Nazis being atheists, ehhhhhh, not so fast there.
Christians? Oh HECK no. But atheists? That’s another matter.
KARL MARX, of Jewish descent (he was not, at all, a true “Jew”, as many falsely claim), was raised Presbyerian/Congregational, a CHRISTIAN, and Apostasized. There is very much evidence that he actually adopted the Black Arts and in fact personally worshiped the Devil. The late Rev. Richard Wurmbrand uncovered this evidence and went into great detail about it, even poems Marx wrote extolling Satan and talking about how he (Marx) wanted to take a hammer and SMASH Jehovah’s (God’s) “worm-eaten head.”
Marx’s FOLLOWERS may have been truly atheists, but he was not.
As for HITLER,
he definitely apostasized from Catholicism, but neither he nor the Nazi leaders
were Atheists.
They were actually, followers of the Occult teachings, spritual aryanism, of
Madame Helena Petrovna Blavatsky, which they learned from Mr. Guido Von List,
a German Pagan Mystic, follower of Blavatsky, and founder of the THULE Society, out of which was formed the Nazi Party which, incidentally, held it’s founding meeting
in the largest and most notorious Gay Bar in Munich.
(( **This is NOT an accusation that Gay People are Nazis !!! **I’m pointing out
the IRONY
…of a movement that made a public SHOW of locking-up Gays, was founded in a Gay
…Bar, and whose leaders were known, such as Herman Goering, for hosting all-male
…Orgies at their Berlin homes, even AFTER the “Night of the Long Knives,” which was,
…the Nazis hypocritically claimed, an attempt to purge the nazi movement of
…homosexuals. In reality, the closeted “butch” bisexual Nazis decided, under pressure
…from Germany’s embarassed industrialists, to annihilate those gay members whom they
…regarded as too embarassingly effeminate. But even after this massacre, men like
…Goering and Goebbels, though married to women, continued to host all-male orgies
…at their homes. This is an open secret, and there are lots of articles out there about it)).

It’s a great temptation, and an often repeated mistake, that the Nazi’s were atheists.
They were not. They were gnostic, black-arts, occult Pagans, very close in their beliefs to what is called THEOSOPHY and Rosicrucianism. They worshiped the “ascended masters,” tried constantly to contact them (they were supposedly super-Aryans who had advanced to the great Beyond. We would call these beings by their proper names: DEMONS.)
Incidentally, Madame Blavatsky’s teachings, and those of her disciple Ms. Alice Bailey, are the very foundational teachings underlying the ENTIRE so-called “New Age Movement.”
 
Jaypeeto4…Wow! Thanks for the history lesson. Very interesting. I knew Hitler had been baptized Catholic but never realized he has ever been an altar boy.
 
Jaypeeto4: As for HITLER,
he definitely apostasized from Catholicism, but neither he nor the Nazi leaders
were Atheists.
They were actually, followers of the Occult teachings, spritual aryanism, of
Madame Helena Petrovna Blavatsky, which they learned from Mr. Guido Von List,
a German Pagan Mystic, follower of Blavatsky, and founder of the THULE Society, out of which was formed the Nazi Party which, incidentally, held it’s founding meeting
in the largest and most notorious Gay Bar in Munich.
(( This is NOT an accusation that Gay People are Nazis !!! I’m pointing out
the IRONY
…of a movement that made a public SHOW of locking-up Gays, was founded in a Gay
…Bar, and whose leaders were known, such as Herman Goering, for hosting all-male
…Orgies at their Berlin homes, even AFTER the “Night of the Long Knives,” which was,
…the Nazis hypocritically claimed, an attempt to purge the nazi movement of
…homosexuals. In reality, the closeted “butch” bisexual Nazis decided, under pressure
…from Germany’s embarassed industrialists, to annihilate those gay members whom they
…regarded as too embarassingly effeminate. But even after this massacre, men like
…Goering and Goebbels, though married to women, continued to host all-male orgies
…at their homes. This is an open secret, and there are lots of articles out there about it)).
It’s a great temptation, and an often repeated mistake, that the Nazi’s were atheists
A large portion of the Nazi hierarchy toyed with neo-pagan beliefs, which as you said is probably due to their involvement in the Thule Society.

I think Hitler, himself, had little to no pagan or neo-pagan leanings, personally, although he was willing to exploit his underlings’ neo-pagan sentiments.

Here are some of his speeches where he denounced the creation of a neo-pagan state:

But there will never be any possibility of National Socialism’s setting out to ape religion by establishing a form of worship. Its one ambition must be scientifically to construct a doctrine that is nothing more than a homage to reason. (23 September 1941, evening)

*It seems to me that nothing would be more foolish than to reestablish the worship of Wotan. Our old mythology had ceased to be viable when Christianity implanted itself. Nothing dies unless it is moribund. At that period the ancient world was divided between the systems of philosophy and the worship of idols. It’s not desirable that the whole of humanity should be stultified - and the only way of getting rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little. * (#39, 14 October 1941, midday)

A movement like ours mustn’t let itself be drawn into metaphysical digressions. It must stick to the spirit of exact science. It’s not the Party’s function to be a counterfeit for religion. (#39, 14 October 1941, midday)

I especially wouldn’t want our movement to acquire a religious character and institute a form of worship. It would be appalling to me, and I’d wish I’d never lived, if I were to end up in the skin of a Buddha! (#39, 14 October 1941, midday)

He was, as you said, raised as a Catholic but explicitly renounced it’s beliefs, sacraments, and its teachings. To the common claim (and I understand you did not make that claim, jaypeet04) that “Hitler was a Catholic!” it could be said that he was Catholic only in the canonical sense - i.e., you will always be held to Catholic canonical law in the eyes of the Church, even if you renounce your faith or convert. It would be hard to argue that a Catholic who converts to Evangelical Protestantism is still a “Catholic,” much less so an atheistic genocidal maniac. If anything, it means he will be held to an even harsher standard, if that is possible, in the afterlife.

Based on his lectures to his closest associates, Hitler was probably closer in viewpoint to the “New Atheist” movement of the last few years. Most people would be hard-pressed to distinguish many of his pronouncements on Catholicism specifically, or Christianity in general, from those of Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris, or Richard Dawkins:

Religion is in perpetual conflict with the spirit of free research…Religion draws all the profit it can from the fact that science postulates the search for, and not the certain knowledge of, the truth. Let’s compare science to a ladder. On every rung, one beholds a wider landscape. But science does not claim to know the essence of things. When science finds that it has to revise one or another nation that it had believed to be definitive, at once religion gloats and declares: “We told you so!” To say that is to forget that it’s in the nature of science to behave itself thus. For if it decided to assume a dogmatic air, it would itself become a church. (#51, 24 October 1941, evening)

*From now on, one may consider that there is no gap between the organic and inorganic worlds. Recent experiments make it possible for one to wonder what distinguishes live bodies from inanimate matter. In the face of this discovery, the Church will begin by rising in revolt, then it will continue to teach its “truths.” One day finally, under the battering ram of science, dogma will collapse. It is logical that it should be so, for the human spirit cannot remorselessly apply itself to raising the veil of mystery without peoples’ one day drawing the conclusions. *(#51, 24 October 1941, evening)

Being weighed down by a superstitious past, men are afraid of of things that can’t, or can’t yet, be explained - that is to say, of the unknown. If anyone has needs of a metaphysical nature, I can’t satisfy them with the Party’s program. Time will go by until the moment when science can answer all the questions. (#39, 14 October 1941, midday)

The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death. A slow death has something comforting about it. The dogma of Christianity gets worn away before the advances of science. Religion will have to make more and more concessions. Gradually the myths crumble. All that’s left is to prove that in nature there is no frontier between the organic and the inorganic. When understanding of the universe has become widespread, when the majority of men know that the stars are not sources of light but worlds, perhaps inhabited worlds like ours, then the Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity. (#39, 14 October 1941, midday)

Christianity, of course, has reached the peak of absurdity in this respect. And that’s why one day its structure will collapse. Science has already impregnated humanity. Consequently, the more Christianity clings to its dogmas, the quicker it will decline. (#39, 14 October 1941, midday)

If, in the course of a thousand or two thousand years, science arrives at the necessity of renewing its points of view, that will not mean that science is a liar. Science cannot lie, for it’s always striving, according to the momentary state of knowledge, to deduce what is true. When it makes a mistake, it does so in good faith. It’s Christianity that’s the liar. It’s in perpetual conflict with itself. (#39, 14 October 1941, midday)
 
Honestly, when I see these things said about Catholics, I now…LAUGH. Haha! So ridiculous it’s funny. I just saw a comment saying something about a tie between Jesuits and Communism. Lol And that “The pope is a Nazi” and “The Catholic Church and the Holocaust”…Why do people say that?

At Mass the Priest spends time saying how we should Love our Protestant Brothers, and how God loves them too…and What to their Pastors or Ministers tell them!?

Eeeesh, how do we “de-bunk” these accusations?
Simple. And I say this to everybody: Ask the accuser how he knows what he says is true. And don’t accept the “Some guy told me” line.

The Pope and the Holocaust thoroughly debunked.

pope-pius-xii.com/index.php?q=node/9

Peace,
Ed
 
A large portion of the Nazi hierarchy toyed with neo-pagan beliefs, which as you said is probably due to their involvement in the Thule Society.

I think Hitler, himself, had little to no pagan or neo-pagan leanings, personally, although he was willing to exploit his underlings’ neo-pagan sentiments.

Here are some of his speeches where he denounced the creation of a neo-pagan state:

But there will never be any possibility of National Socialism’s setting out to ape religion by establishing a form of worship. Its one ambition must be scientifically to construct a doctrine that is nothing more than a homage to reason. (23 September 1941, evening)

*It seems to me that nothing would be more foolish than to reestablish the worship of Wotan. Our old mythology had ceased to be viable when Christianity implanted itself. Nothing dies unless it is moribund. At that period the ancient world was divided between the systems of philosophy and the worship of idols. It’s not desirable that the whole of humanity should be stultified - and the only way of getting rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little. * (#39, 14 October 1941, midday)

A movement like ours mustn’t let itself be drawn into metaphysical digressions. It must stick to the spirit of exact science. It’s not the Party’s function to be a counterfeit for religion. (#39, 14 October 1941, midday)

I especially wouldn’t want our movement to acquire a religious character and institute a form of worship. It would be appalling to me, and I’d wish I’d never lived, if I were to end up in the skin of a Buddha! (#39, 14 October 1941, midday)

He was, as you said, raised as a Catholic but explicitly renounced it’s beliefs, sacraments, and its teachings. To the common claim (and I understand you did not make that claim, jaypeet04) that “Hitler was a Catholic!” it could be said that he was Catholic only in the canonical sense - i.e., you will always be held to Catholic canonical law in the eyes of the Church, even if you renounce your faith or convert. It would be hard to argue that a Catholic who converts to Evangelical Protestantism is still a “Catholic,” much less so an atheistic genocidal maniac. If anything, it means he will be held to an even harsher standard, if that is possible, in the afterlife.

Based on his lectures to his closest associates, Hitler was probably closer in viewpoint to the “New Atheist” movement of the last few years. Most people would be hard-pressed to distinguish many of his pronouncements on Catholicism specifically, or Christianity in general, from those of Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris, or Richard Dawkins:

Religion is in perpetual conflict with the spirit of free research…Religion draws all the profit it can from the fact that science postulates the search for, and not the certain knowledge of, the truth. Let’s compare science to a ladder. On every rung, one beholds a wider landscape. But science does not claim to know the essence of things. When science finds that it has to revise one or another nation that it had believed to be definitive, at once religion gloats and declares: “We told you so!” To say that is to forget that it’s in the nature of science to behave itself thus. For if it decided to assume a dogmatic air, it would itself become a church. (#51, 24 October 1941, evening)

*From now on, one may consider that there is no gap between the organic and inorganic worlds. Recent experiments make it possible for one to wonder what distinguishes live bodies from inanimate matter. In the face of this discovery, the Church will begin by rising in revolt, then it will continue to teach its “truths.” One day finally, under the battering ram of science, dogma will collapse. It is logical that it should be so, for the human spirit cannot remorselessly apply itself to raising the veil of mystery without peoples’ one day drawing the conclusions. *(#51, 24 October 1941, evening)

Being weighed down by a superstitious past, men are afraid of of things that can’t, or can’t yet, be explained - that is to say, of the unknown. If anyone has needs of a metaphysical nature, I can’t satisfy them with the Party’s program. Time will go by until the moment when science can answer all the questions. (#39, 14 October 1941, midday)

The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death. A slow death has something comforting about it. The dogma of Christianity gets worn away before the advances of science. Religion will have to make more and more concessions. Gradually the myths crumble. All that’s left is to prove that in nature there is no frontier between the organic and the inorganic. When understanding of the universe has become widespread, when the majority of men know that the stars are not sources of light but worlds, perhaps inhabited worlds like ours, then the Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity. (#39, 14 October 1941, midday)

Christianity, of course, has reached the peak of absurdity in this respect. And that’s why one day its structure will collapse. Science has already impregnated humanity. Consequently, the more Christianity clings to its dogmas, the quicker it will decline. (#39, 14 October 1941, midday)

If, in the course of a thousand or two thousand years, science arrives at the necessity of renewing its points of view, that will not mean that science is a liar. Science cannot lie, for it’s always striving, according to the momentary state of knowledge, to deduce what is true. When it makes a mistake, it does so in good faith. It’s Christianity that’s the liar. It’s in perpetual conflict with itself. (#39, 14 October 1941, midday)
Where did you get these quotes? I’d like to point out that German soldiers had the following stamped on their belt buckles: Gott mit Uns, or God with Us. Yes, Hitler said, “Ein volk! Ein Reich!” One people! One Realm!

The Bolsheviks were the problem. I have seen one wartime poster that was anti-Bolshevik, and it had a painting of Christ on the cross with the words that basically translated: They don’t believe in this!

I have seen many wartime original photos that showed the graves of German dead with crosses on them.

Peace,
Ed
 
Where did you get these quotes? I’d like to point out that German soldiers had the following stamped on their belt buckles: Gott mit Uns, or God with Us. Yes, Hitler said, “Ein volk! Ein Reich!” One people! One Realm!

The Bolsheviks were the problem. I have seen one wartime poster that was anti-Bolshevik, and it had a painting of Christ on the cross with the words that basically translated: They don’t believe in this!

I have seen many wartime original photos that showed the graves of German dead with crosses on them.

Peace,
Ed
Ed, the quotes are from the book “Hitler’s Table Talks”, collected and translated by H.R. Trevor-Roper, which is available on Amazon and most libraries. It is an exhaustive collection of the evening and lunchtime lectures and talks Hitler gave to his inner-circle party elite, so we can presume these reflect Hitler’s true feelings and not the platitudes he put out for the useful idiots of the international press. Martin Bormann thought enough of his boss that he had a stenographer transcribe every lecture, so we know what Hitler was saying, often down to the date and hour he said it.

As you are probably aware, the phrase “Gott Mit Uns” (“God is With Us”) on the belt buckles did not originate with the Nazis, it was part of the German uniform even back in WWI and before, and was part of the Nazi effort to claim lineage to the old (pre-Nazi) Imperial German Army, which had a officer and enlisted base that was largely Christian. It was usually NOT on the Waffen-SS belt buckle, (although I believe the Totenkopf units adopted it), most of which had the toadying inscription “Meine Ehre Heisst Treue,” “My Honor is Loyalty” (i.e., to Hitler).

There were obviously many Catholic and Protestants within the German Army (not the Waffen-SS), and much of the internal opposition to Hitler centered around religious officers, including the officers who made several failed assassination attempts at the cost of their own lives.

Hitler played on the Christianity of many Germans with the sort of posters you describe. Hitler himself often spoke highly of Jesus, but bear in mind this his was a crackpot, non-historical view of Jesus as a half-Roman who fought against the capitalism of the Jews, and epitomized Hitler’s own racist views:

Jesus was most certainly not a Jew. The Jews would never have handed one of their own people to the Roman courts; they would have condemned him themselves. It is quite probable that a large number of the descendants of the Roman legionaries, mostly Gauls, were living in Galilee, and Jesus was probably one of them. His mother may well have been a Jewess. Jesus fought against the materialism of His age, and, therefore, against the Jews. Paul of Tarsus, who was originally one of the most stubborn enemies of the Christians…realized that the judicious exploitation of this idea among non-Jews would give him far greater power in the world…it was then that the future St. Paul distorted with diabolical cunning the Christian idea. Out of this idea, which was a declaration of war on the golden calf, on the egotism and the materialism of the Jews, he created a rallying point for slaves of all kinds against the elite, the masters and those in dominant authority. The religion fabricated by Paul of Tarsus, which was later called Christianity, is nothing but the Communism of today…Burgdorff has just given me a paper which deals with the relationship between Communism and Christianity. It is comforting to see how, even in these days, the fatal relationship between the two is daily becoming clearer to the human intelligence. (#328, Night of 29-30 November 1944)

Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism the destroyer. Nevertheless the Galilean, who was later called the Christ, intended something quite different. He must be regarded as a popular leader who took up His position against Jewry. Galilee was a colony where the Romans had probably installed Gallic legionaries, and it’s certain that Jesus was not a Jew. The Jews, by the way, regarded Him as the son of a whore - of a whore and a Roman soldier. (21 October 1941, midday)

The decisive falsification of Jesus’s doctrine was the work of St. Paul. He gave himself to this work with subtlety and for purposes of personal exploitation. For the Galilean’s object was to liberate His country from Jewish oppression. He set himself against Jewish capitalism, and that’s why the Jews liquidated him. (21 October 1941, midday)

Hitler’s own feelings about Catholicism aren’t hard to locate. He denied and disparaged everything he was taught in Catechism, including all the Sacraments as far as I can tell:

When one examines the Catholic religion closely, one cannot fail to realize that it is an almost incredibly cunning mixture of hypocrisy and business acumen, which trades with consummate skill on the deeply engrained affection of mankind for the beliefs and superstitions he holds. (#187, 9 April 1942, at dinner)

BAPTISM: *As for the fruits of sin, the soul that fears limbo is a candidate for baptism, that is to say, another customer, and so business goes on! * (#52, 25 October 1941, evening)

PRAYER: One day [Father Schwarz, Hitler’s catechism teacher] - I’ve forgotten in reference to what - he asked me if I said my prayers in the morning, at midday, and at night. “No, sir, I don’t say prayers. Besides, I don’t see how God could be interested in the prayers of a secondary schoolboy.” (#100, Night of January 8 - 9, 1942)

CHURCH ATTENDANCE: *While we’re on the subject, let’s add that, even amongst those who claim to be good Catholics, very few really believe this humbug. Only old women, who have given up everything because life has already withdrawn from them, go regularly to church. * (#163, 27 February 1942, midday)

CONFESSION: And those repulsive priests, when they question a child of seven in the confessional, it’s they themselves who incite to sin, by opening its eyes to sin. (#152, Night of 19-20 February, 1942)

I admit confession has its uses; the woman has the satisfaction of absolution and permission to carry on with her little games, and the parson has the pleasure of hearing all about it! (#312, 4 September 1942, midday)

COMMUNION: Since my fourteenth year I have felt liberated from the superstition that the priests used to teach. Apart from a few Holy Joes, I can say that none of my comrades went on believing in the miracle of the Eucharist. (#153, Night of 20 - 21 February 1942)

HOLY MATRIMONY: Social prejudices are in the process of disappearing. More and more, nature is reclaiming her rights. We’re moving in the proper direction. I’ve much more respect for a the woman who has an illegitimate child than for an old maid…Marriage, as it is practiced in bourgeoise society, is generally a thing against nature. (#169, 1 March 1943, Evening)

Every marriage concluded as the result of a divorce is regarded by the Church as living in sin. The result is that, in Austria for example, nobody cares about the commandments of the Church. From this point of view, Austria was in advance of Germany. (#52, 25 October 1941, evening)

All the girls whom we bring back from the Eastern territories are medically examined; and 25 percent of them are found to be virgins. That couldn’t happen in Upper Bavaria! Contrary to popular belief, it is wrong to suppose that virginity is a particularly desirable quality; one cannot help suspecting that those who have been spared have nothing particular to offer! And what is popularly said on the subject of Christian virgins I hesitate to repeat. When in the marriage ceremony the priest mentions virginity and the holy bond of matrimony, one always sees some of the lads grin and nudge each other; quite a number of them probably know this “Christian virgin” inside out! (#295, 2 August 1942, midday)

HOLY ORDERS: Originally, religion was merely a prop for human communities. It was a means, not an end in itself. It’s only gradually that it became transformed in this direction, with the object of maintaining the rule of the priests, who can live only to the detriment of society collectively. (#39, 14 October 941, midday)
 
Hitler’s visceral hatred of the Church, the Pope, and the German and Austrian bishops was manifest:

The evil that’s gnawing at our vitals is the priests, of both creeds. I can’t at present give them the answer they’ve been asking for, but it will cost them nothing to wait. It’s all written down in my big book. The time will come when I’ll settle my account with them, and I’ll go straight to the point. I don’t know which should be considered the more dangerous: the minister of religion who playacts at patriotism, or the man who openly opposes the State…They’ve only got to keep at it, they’ll hear from me, all right. I shan’t let myself be hampered by judicial scruples. Only necessity has legal force. In less than ten years from now, things will have quite another look, I can promise them. We shan’t be able to go on evading the religious problem much longer. If anyone thinks it’s really essential to build the life of human society on a foundation of lies, well in my estimation, such a society is not worth preserving. If, on the other hand, one believes that truth is the indispensable foundation, then conscience bids one intervene in the name of truth, and exterminate the lie…Just as the pyres for heretics have been suppressed, so all these by-products of ignorance and bad faith will have to be eliminated in their turn. (#143, 8 February 1942, midday)

After this war, I’ll take the necessary steps to make recruiting of priests extraordinarily difficult. In particular, I’ll no longer allow children, from the age of ten and upward, to devote their lives to the Church, when they’ve absolutely no notion what they’re undertaking - in accepting celibacy, for example. Only the man who has passed his twenty-fourth year, and has finished his Labor Service and his military service, will be able to embrace an ecclesiastical career. (#184, 7 April 1942, at dinner)

The great ambition of the parson clique is, and always has been, to undermine the power of the State. And for as long as we suffer these parsons in our midst, it serves us right! Every country gets the type of parson it deserves, at the moment I can do nothing about it, and so I shall continue to keep them happy. But one of these days, I shall bring this conflict, as old as Germany itself, to an abrupt and decisive conclusion. I’ll make these damned parsons feel the power of the State in a way they would never have dreamed possible! For the moment I am just keeping my eye on them; if I ever have the slightest suspicion that they are getting dangerous, I will shoot the lot of them. This filthy reptile raises its head wherever there is a sign of weakness in the State, and therefore it must be stamped on wherever it does so. (#287 - 11 August 1942 - Evening)

Methods of persuasion of a moral order are not an effective weapon against those who despise the truth - when we have to do with priests, for example, of a Church who know that everything about it is based on lies, and who live by it. They think me a spoilsport when I rise up in their midst, indeed, I am going to spoil their little games. (#52, 25 October 1941, evening)

*I envisage the future, therefore, as follows: First of all, to each man his private creed. Superstition shall not lose its rights. The party is sheltered from the danger of competing with the religions. The latter must simply be forbidden from interfering in future with temporal matters. From the tenderest age, education will be imparted in such a way that each child will know all that is important to the maintenance of the State. As for the men close to me, who, like me, have escaped from the clutches of dogma, I’ve no reason to fear that the Church will get its hooks on them. We’ll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State. We shall continue to preach the doctrine of National Socialism, and the young will no longer be taught anything but the truth. * (#39, 14 October 1941, midday)

There’s also the third power - the Vatican. Don’t forget that! Why be surprised if our confidential letters are broadcast to the world a few days after being received? (#132, 3 January 1942, evening)

The foulest of the carrion are those who come clothed in the cloak of humility, and the foulest of the foul is Count Preysing! What a beast! The Popish inquisitor is a humane being in comparison. Vileness and hypocrisy walk arm in arm; both must be extirpated. The uselessness of these parsons is nowhere better illustrated than here at the front. Here we have enemies who are dying by the million - and without a single one of these liars. The Catholic Church has but one desire, and that is to see us destroyed. (#287 - 11 August 1942 - Evening)

(Johann Konrad Maria Augustin Felix Graf von Preysing Lichtenegg-Moos (August 30, 1880—December 21, 1950) was a German prelate of the Roman Catholic Church. He served as Bishop of Berlin from 1935 until his death, and was elevated to the cardinalate in 1946 by Pope Pius XII. A stern opponent of the Nazi regime, he said “We have fallen into the hands of criminals and fools” when the party came to power. He was an opponent of both the Nazis and the Communists, worked with Allied Intelligence behind the scenes, and worked with Pope Pius to rescue European Jews.)

Hitler was under no illusions about the Church’s enmity towards him, and planned to cancel the Concordat:

Once the war is over we will put a swift end to the Concordat. It will give me the greatest personal pleasure to point out to the Church all those occasions on which it has broken the terms of it. One need only recall the close cooperation between the Church and the murderers of Heydrich. Catholic priests not only allowed them to hide in a church on the outskirts of Prague, but even allowed them to hide in a church on the outskirts of Prague, but even allowed them to entrench themselves in the sanctuary of the altar. (#248, 4 July 1942, at dinner)

Not only the history of the past, but also present times afford numberless examples of the very hard-boiled diplomats to be found in the service of the Catholic Church, and how extremely cautious one must be in dealing with them. (#248, 4 July 1942, at dinner)

The fact that I remain silent in public over Church affairs is not in the least misunderstood by the sly foxes of the Catholic Church, and I am quite sure that a man like the Bishop von Galen knows full well that after the war I shall extract retribution to the last farthing. And, if he does not succeed in getting himself transferred in the meanwhile to the Collegium Germanicum in Rome, he may rest assured that in the balancing of our accounts, no “T” will remain uncrossed, no “I” undotted! The attitude of the Bishop von Galen affords just one more argument in favor of terminating the Concordat after the war, substituting for it regional regulation and the immediately withholding from the Church the financial support at present guaranteed to it by that treaty. (#248, 4 July 1942, at dinner)

I have numerous accounts to settle, about which I cannot think today. But that doesn’t mean I forget them. I write them down. The time will come to bring out the big book! …One acts more shrewdly when one bides one’s time…When I read of the speeches of a man like Galen, I tell myself that there’s no point in administering p(name removed by moderator)ricks, and that for the moment it’s preferable to be silent. (#52, 25 October 1941, evening)
 
It was not simply that Hitler hated the Church due to any bad experiences he could have had with them as a youth or as a politician. He denied the very precepts or truth of Christianity, in a way that any of the New Atheists could appreciate:

One cannot succeed in conceiving how much cruelty, ignominy and falsehood the intrusion of Christianity has spelt for this world of ours. (#137, Night of 3 - 4 February, 1942)

I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie. (#163, 27 February 1942, midday)

I adopted a definite attitude on the 21st March 1933 when I refused to to take part in the religious services, organized at Potsdam by the two Churches, for the inauguration of the new Reichstag. I’ve never concerned myself, in the Party, with learning which Church the men around me belonged, or did not belong. But if I were die today, it would shock me to know that there’s a single “sky pilot” within a radius of ten kilometers around me. (#163, 27 February 1942, midday)

Our epoch will see the end of the disease of Christianity. (#163, 27 February 1942, midday)

Here Christianity sets the example. What could be more fanatical, more exclusive and more intolerant than this religion which bases everything on the love of the one and only God whom it reveals. (#180, 4 April 1942, midday)

With what clairvoyance the authors of the eighteenth, and especially those of the past, century criticized Christianity and passed judgement on the evolution of the Churches! (#52, 25 October 1941, evening)

The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. (#4, Night of 11 - 12 July 1941)

Christianity was the first creed in the world to exterminate its adversaries in the name of love. Its keynote is intolerance. (#4, Night of 11 - 12 July 1941)

Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure. (10 October 1941, midday)

The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity. (19 October 1941, night)

Hitler didn’t have any particular animus towards Islam or Shinto, BTW, both of whose followers he included among his allies, and whom he felt to be more “virile” religions. Apparently, he wished that Germans had been converted to Islam.

…[T]he religion of the Japanese is above all a cult of heroism, and its heroes are those who do not hesitate to sacrifice their lives for the glory and safety of their country. The Christians, on the other hand, prefer to honor the Saints, that is to say, a man who succeeds in standing on one leg for years at a time, or one who prefers to lie on a bed of thorns rather than respond to the smiles of inviting maidens. There is something very unhealthy about Christianity. Another peculiarity of the Christian faith, as it is taught by the Catholic Church, is that it is a school of pessimism rather than of optimism. The Japanese religion, on the contrary, rouses men to enthusiasm by the promise it holds of the rewards in the Hereafter, while the unfortunate Christian has no prospect before him but the torments of Hell. (#187, 9 April 1942, at dinner)

Just as in Islam, there is no kind of terrorism in the Japanese State religion, but on the contrary. This terrorism in religion is the product, to put it briefly, of a Jewish dogma, which Christianity has universalized and whose effect is to sow trouble and confusion in men’s minds. It’s obvious that, in the realm of belief, terrorist teachings have no other object but to distract men from their natural optimism and to develop in them the instinct of cowardice. (#180, 4 April 1942, midday)

Had Charles Martel not been victorious at Poitiers - already, you see, the world had fallen into the hands of the Jews, so gutless a thing was Christianity! - then we should in all probability have been converted to Mohammedanism, that cult that glorified heroism and which opens the seventh Heaven to the bold warrior alone. Then the Germanic races would have conquered the world. Christianity alone prevented them from doing so. (#302, 28 August 1942, midday)

I’m going to become a religious figure. Soon I’ll be the great chief of the Tartars. Already Arabs and Moroccans are mingling my name with their prayers. Amongst the Tartars I shall become Khan, The only thing of which I shall be incapable is to share the sheiks’ mutton with them. I’m a vegetarian, and they must spare me from their meat. If they don’t wait too long, I’ll fall back on their harems! (#105, Night of January 12 - 13 1942)

There are numerous other references in that volume and others which provide ample evidence of Hitler’s hatred of Christianity and the Catholic Church (that was just scratching the surface, and it’s probably a little nauseating to read that much bile at once.)

The OSS (the forerunner of the CIA) prepared a massive set of evidence on the Nazis suppression of the Church and their attempts to destroy Christian religion in Germany for the war crimes trials at Nuremberg, which is available in 4 huge PDF volumes on the Internet. (I don’t have the address handy, but if you’d like to refer to it, I can find it for you.)
 
I am a student of OSS history. I am aware of Hitler’s Table Talk and the original German edition by Henry Picker. It is only one source.

catholiceducation.org/articles/history/world/wh0033.html

Eugenics had taken hold in ‘scientific’ circles in the United States and then spread to Europe. I recently heard a young German on TV say that Germany should be for Germans and foreigners were not welcome. Going back to the war, the OSS secretly knew what was going on. As a paramilitary organization, their concern about religious persecution would seem to be outside their true purpose, which William “Will Bill” Donovan, head of the OSS, laid out succinctly in an interview: “We killed people and blew up things.” The goal of the Nazis was to exterminate all racially inferior, and defective, peoples in the Greater Reich.

Too bad the far more shadowy Counter-Intelligence Corps is very rarely mentioned. What they did was far more extensive than the operations of the OSS.

Peace,
Ed
 
I am a student of OSS history. I am aware of Hitler’s Table Talk and the original German edition by Henry Picker. It is only one source.

catholiceducation.org/articles/history/world/wh0033.html

Eugenics had taken hold in ‘scientific’ circles in the United States and then spread to Europe. I recently heard a young German on TV say that Germany should be for Germans and foreigners were not welcome. Going back to the war, the OSS secretly knew what was going on. As a paramilitary organization, their concern about religious persecution would seem to be outside their true purpose, which William “Will Bill” Donovan, head of the OSS, laid out succinctly in an interview: “We killed people and blew up things.” The goal of the Nazis was to exterminate all racially inferior, and defective, peoples in the Greater Reich.

Too bad the far more shadowy Counter-Intelligence Corps is very rarely mentioned. What they did was far more extensive than the operations of the OSS.

Peace,
Ed
We don’t seem to be in disagreement. The documentation on Hitler’s views of the Church and Christianity is extensive.

The OSS was a lot closer to the modern Special Forces than the CIA, but operations in Afghanistan and Iraq are probably closer to the original OSS conception. Their concern during the war was probably not in ending religious persecution, (although helping to destroy the Third Reich was the best way of doing that), and they did work with elements of the Catholic Church covertly.

The OSS connection to the Nuremberg material is that Bill Donovan served as the Special Assistant to the Chief Prosecutor for the postwar Nuremberg trials, Telford Taylor, and was responsible for assembling the material on religious persecution by the Nazis.

My college poli-sci professor was a CIC veteran, it was an interesting group. Ib Melchior, the science fiction writer (“Lost in Space” was based on his idea, and “Death Race 2000” was based on his short story) was also a CIC agent. I heard him give a lecture on it one time, and he has a good book on the subject.
 
Thank you for your reply. I’d be interested in knowing the title of the book you refer to, since I am aware of only one book about the CIC.

Peace,
Ed
 
Thank you for your reply. I’d be interested in knowing the title of the book you refer to, since I am aware of only one book about the CIC.
“Case by Case: A U.S. Army Counterintelligence Agent in World War II” by Ib Melchior. You can find used copies for as low as $0.01 on Amazon. Good book. I think he also wrote a book about Hitler’s Werewolves (a Nazi guerrilla/terrorist organization that sprang from the remnants of the Hitler Youth)
 
Hitler’s table talk comments claiming to hate all forms of religion are certainly interesting, to say the least.
Suffice it to say that HERR Hitler contradicted himself many times on the issue of religion, and I have to believe that this was deliberate, keyed to whomever he intended to address.
Why?
Because, in his MEIN KAMPF (not only an Evil book, but also a monumentally BORING and badly-written book to boot!!) Herr Hitler spoke glowingly of Christianity (but by this he did not mean historic Christianity), of “the LORD,” and of doing God’s will.
This man clearly used religious, even traditionally-christian terminology when it suited him to do so. He also apparently, in his Table Talks from which you quote,
out of the other side of his mouth, DENOUNCED all religion.

This is what I have learned about this man and his NAZI movement over the years.
The THULE Society already existed, largely the baby of Mr. Guido Von List, who incorporated into it ALL of the teachings of Madame Blavatsky and her evil book,
THE SECRET DOCTRINE. Back to this in a minute vis-a-vis the belief that Herr Hitler was an “atheist” and not an occult pagan.
This THULE Society founded the German Workers Party in a gay bar in Munich to eventually enshrine into law the pagan beliefs of THULE (the teachings of Madame Blavatsky).

Hitler as a young military officer was ordered by his superiors to infiltrate this new “German Workers Party” to learn what it was “up to” and report back, and it was during this process that he met and was indoctrinated in, the teachings of THULE by Guido Von List, and he personally, fell head over heels in love with this Society and it’s German Worker’s Party, joined it, eventually became it’s spokesman/leader, and the rest is history from there.

Why is Blavatsky’s Secret Doctrine, Von List’s and Thule’s 100% embrace of it,
and Hitler’s mentoring by Von List in these teachings, significant? Because they have bearing on whether Hitler was REALLY an Atheist, or a Christian (as Christianity-haters like to insist) or a Blavatskyan/Thule-ist Pagan. The evidence is the latter, seriously, because the entire Nazi race and blood cult worldview stems, not from “Wotan” or “astrology” but comes (as does american Rosicrucianism) straight out of, word-for-word out of, Madame Blavatsky’s Secret Doctrine. This worldview is not atheistic, but mystical/racial. It asserts, for one thing, that the myths regarding ATLANTIS and it’s sinking are all literally true. On Atlantis were several races of people. Those who had pure blood (((they must always have pure, untainted blood))) were capable of continued spiritual evolution, as “ascended masters” and “avatars” after their deaths. They were called the ARYAN race and were the only ones capable, in this life, of doing anything or accomplishing anything whatsoever, worthwhile, creative, and good. ALL the other races or root-races on Atlantis, had tainted blood to some extent or another, and could never advance to the status of avatars, nor serve any useful purpose on this earth other than to pay for their previous life’s sins by suffering and working to death as slaves (“arbeit macht frei”, as the sign over the entrance to Auschwitz read. THIS is what that sign MEANT. If they suffered like HELL in this life under BRUTAL slavery, they could reincarnate perhaps as a higher level being in the next incarnation. Work makes you free.). All the nonAryan races had tainted blood and were good for nothing useful except to be worked to death as slaves by the Aryans. Then Atlantis sank. The Aryans AND the tainted-blood races (including the worst of all, the “Jews”) all survived the sinking, but the Aryans lost sight of their grand mission, allowed the other, subhuman races to live among them usually freely and even intermarry with them (thus risking forever losing the Aryan race and bloodlines), and generally thereby corrupt the whole world. The Jews and Slavs and Negroes were the lowest of the low, as far as impure blood and it’s concurrent moral worthlessness, were concerned.
The National in National Socialist doesn’t mean German borders-“nationalist” but nationalist in the sense of nation as in “RACE.” The NATIONAL Socialist Workers Party, as intended by Thule, was to restore the Aryan race to it’s purity by purging the Aryan world of Jewry entirely and enslaving all the Slavs and annihilating, gradually, through hard labor, some of them, such as the POLES, who ran the greatest risk of re-corrupting the Aryans (the pure Germans). This stuff is straight out of the Aryan/Atlantean teachings of Blavatsky and Von List, are definitely not atheist, and are the precise racial teachings that Hitler himself advocated from the exact same angle and blood-taint claims. These teachings were also held, outside Germany,by Alice Bailey and also the Rosicrucian Order (AMORC) located in Southern California, which publishes a book advocating these, entitled THE MYSTICAL LIFE OF JESUS.
 
Hitler’s table talk comments claiming to hate all forms of religion are certainly interesting, to say the least.
Suffice it to say that HERR Hitler contradicted himself many times on the issue of religion, and I have to believe that this was deliberate, keyed to whomever he intended to address.
Why?
Because, in his MEIN KAMPF (not only an Evil book, but also a monumentally BORING and badly-written book to boot!!) Herr Hitler spoke glowingly of Christianity (but by this he did not mean historic Christianity), of “the LORD,” and of doing God’s will.
This man clearly used religious, even traditionally-christian terminology when it suited him to do so. He also apparently, in his Table Talks from which you quote,
out of the other side of his mouth, DENOUNCED all religion.
.
I agree it is difficult to say with certainty exactly what Hitler believed, as he was a mercurial, psychotic, lying, genocidal maniac. Trying to get a peek into his mind is like kicking over a rock and seeing the worms underneath. He also would say different things to different groups when he was seeking an advantage, contradict himself, and use words in ways most people do not (as you pointed out with the use of “Nationalist:”). At times in the speeches recorded in “Table Talks,” he clearly sounds like an atheist who reveres scientism, at other times he does refer to a God, but in what seems like almost a deist sense, or in terms of a creative force or guiding principle (guiding Hitler, naturally) or a Zen sense that is antithetical to Christianity, and mocks materialistic atheism, which he associated with the Bolsheviks:

I think the man who contemplates the universe with his eyes wide open is the man with the greatest amount of natural piety: not in the religious sense, but in the sense of an intimate harmony with things…In any case, we shall learn to become familiar with the laws by which life is governed, and acquaintance with the laws of nature will guide us on the path of progress, As for the why of this laws, we shall never know anything about it. A thing is so, and our understanding cannot conceive of other schemes. Man has discovered in nature the wonderful notion of that almighty being whose law he worships. Fundamentally in everyone there is the feeling for this almighty, which we call God (that is to say, the dominion of natural laws throughout the whole universe). The priests, who have always succeeded in exploiting this feeling, threaten punishments for the man who refuses to accept the creed they impose. (#3, Night of 11 - 12 July 1941).

The Russians were entitled to attack their priests, but they had no right to assail the idea of a supreme force. It’s a fact that we’re feeble creatures, and that a creative force exists. To seek to deny it is folly. In that case, it’s better to believe something false than not to believe anything at all. Who’s that little Bolshevik professor who claims to triumph over creation? People like that, we’ll break them. Whether they rely on the catechism or on philosophy, we have possibilities in reserve, whilst they, with their purely materialistic conceptions, can only devour one another. (24 October 1941, evening)
 
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