Whore of Babylon?

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beegirl

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I would defiantly not be surprised if this is a topic already, and if so you have my apologies. :o

As some of you know, I grew up in a Baptist Church and I go there with my parents on some Sundays (as I attend Saturday mass). Usually I don’t bring up the fact that I’m in the process of converting to Catholicism, and not a single person in the church – even the pastor – knows yet.

This Sunday the pastor launched into an all out diatribe about the Catholic church. He said, among other things, that no Catholic could truly be a Christian or grow in their faith, and that no Catholic priest would go to heaven. This, unfortunately, is nothing new. Then he went on to say that the Catholic church is actually “the Whore of Babylon” mentioned in the book of Revelation (chapter 17 I believe). He said he that “extensive research” had led him to this conclusion. 🤷

I didn’t really know what to think. Obviously I don’t believe it. I read the passage myself, but I would like to know where people are getting this idea?
 
beegirl said:
I would defiantly not be surprised if this is a topic already, and if so you have my apologies. :o

As some of you know, I grew up in a Baptist Church and I go there with my parents on some Sundays (as I attend Saturday mass). Usually I don’t bring up the fact that I’m in the process of converting to Catholicism, and not a single person in the church – even the pastor – knows yet.

This Sunday the pastor launched into an all out diatribe about the Catholic church. He said, among other things, that no Catholic could truly be a Christian or grow in their faith, and that no Catholic priest would go to heaven. This, unfortunately, is nothing new. Then he went on to say that the Catholic church is actually “the Whore of Babylon” mentioned in the book of Revelation (chapter 17 I believe). He said he that “extensive research” had led him to this conclusion. 🤷

I didn’t really know what to think. Obviously I don’t believe it. I read the passage myself, but I would like to know where people are getting this idea?
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Sounds to me like the pastor’s a bit touched in the head. I’d love to know where he got that research. Sounds bizarre.

I’m not RC, but I would love to hear the rationale for this, myself. See, I’d be laughing my b*** off if’n I heard that, and they’d be tossing me out of the church on my ear…
 
beegirl said:
This Sunday the pastor launched into an all out diatribe about the Catholic church. He said, among other things, that no Catholic could truly be a Christian or grow in their faith, and that no Catholic priest would go to heaven. This, unfortunately, is nothing new. Then he went on to say that the Catholic church is actually “the Whore of Babylon” mentioned in the book of Revelation (chapter 17 I believe). He said he that “extensive research” had led him to this conclusion. 🤷
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Get him a copy of the book … RAPTURE, by David Currie, 2003 Sophia Press. Its covers all the OT & NT prophesy … and explains the Catholic viewpoint vs evangelical/Protestant.

It deals with the Rapture, the Millennium, Daniels 70 weeks, John’s Vision of the EndDays, the Olive Tree Discourse, etc. It explains who the Whore of Babylon is and isn’t.

Read it first yourself … 🙂 paperback, a lucky 13$ read @ Barnes/Noble or Amazon Books. Then give it to him as a belated Father’s Day read. It will blow his errant concepts away … and he will never preach such sermons again. He might even convert to the Cath. Church before you … 👍
 
beegirl said:
I would defiantly not be surprised if this is a topic already, and if so you have my apologies. :o

As some of you know, I grew up in a Baptist Church and I go there with my parents on some Sundays (as I attend Saturday mass). Usually I don’t bring up the fact that I’m in the process of converting to Catholicism, and not a single person in the church – even the pastor – knows yet.

This Sunday the pastor launched into an all out diatribe about the Catholic church. He said, among other things, that no Catholic could truly be a Christian or grow in their faith, and that no Catholic priest would go to heaven. This, unfortunately, is nothing new. Then he went on to say that the Catholic church is actually “the Whore of Babylon” mentioned in the book of Revelation (chapter 17 I believe). He said he that “extensive research” had led him to this conclusion. 🤷

I didn’t really know what to think. Obviously I don’t believe it. I read the passage myself, but I would like to know where people are getting this idea?
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Welcome to Catholicism.

If he were to provide his “extensive research” I’m sure those here could easily refute him point by point.

But I doubt it would do any good. I would speculate he has a vested psychological need in the Catholic Church being the “Whore of Babylon” so he sees what he wants to see.

If the Catholic Church is not corrupt and evil, and if it did not become so very near the death of the Apostles then he’s got a real hard time justifying teachings which are diametrically opposed to 1500 years of Orthodox Christian Tradition.

In any case, regardless of what one might think of the teachings of the Catholic Church, it can be proven from the bible alone, that the Catholic Church cannot be the Whore of Babylon.

http://www.catholic.com/library/Whore_of_Babylon.asp

“Persecuting apostles and prophets

When the Whore falls we read, “‘Rejoice over her, O heaven! Rejoice, saints and apostles and prophets! God has judged her for the way she treated you’. . . . In her was found the blood of prophets and of the saints, and of all who have been killed on the earth” (18:20, 24). This shows that the Whore persecuted not just Christians, but apostles and prophets. Apostles existed only in the first century, since one of the requirements for being an apostle was seeing the risen Christ (1 Cor. 9:1). Prophets existed as a group only in the Old Testament and in the first century (Acts 11:27–28, 13:1, 15:32, 21:10).

Since the Whore persecuted apostles and prophets, the Whore must have existed in the first century. This totally demolishes the claim that Christian Rome or Vatican City is the Whore. Rome was not a Christian city at that time, and Vatican City did not even exist, so neither of them could be the Whore. Furthermore, Fundamentalists continually (though wrongly) claim that Catholicism itself did not exist in the first century, meaning that based on their very own argument Catholicism could not be the Whore!

Fundamentalists are fond of conjecturing that in the last days there will be a “revived Roman empire,” such as the one that persecuted Christians in the first century. Yet they never draw the inference that this empire would be headed by a revived pagan Rome, with the bishop of Rome leading the Christian underground, just as he did in the first century.

Still, Revelation 18:20 and 18:24 prove that the Whore had to be a creature of the first century, which, in the Fundamentalist view, the Catholic Church was not. Thus, on their own view, their identification of the Catholic Church with the Whore is completely impossible! Only ancient, pagan Rome or apostate Jerusalem could possibly be the Whore.”
 
Hi Bee! 👋

Welcome to CAF and the Tiber Swim Team! 🙂

That pastor would have to reveal the his sources of that “extensive research”, but most likely he will have been reading stuff like Lorraine Boettner’s “Roman Catholicism” and Alexander Hislop’s “The Two Babylons” of Dave Hunt’s “*A Woman Rides the Beast”. *All three are very biased sources of anti-Catholic propaganda and misinformation. That tripe is also parroted on a lot of anti-Catholic websites.

Below are some links (taken from CAF’s Ask an Apologist forum and the CA Library) to some very informative articles that deal with this stuff. You might also pick up a copy of Karl Keating’s excellent book Catholicism and Fundamentalism which is one of the best responses to this kind of thing.
If you need and more help along the way, we are all here for you and you can reach me and other knowledgeable Catholics on here by PM or at the Tiber Swim Team Lifeguard Station.
The peace of the Lord be with you always.👍
 
That pastor would have to reveal the his sources of that “extensive research”, but most likely he will have been reading stuff like Lorraine Boettner’s “Roman Catholicism” and Alexander Hislop’s “The Two Babylons” of Dave Hunt’s “A Woman Rides the Beast”. All three are very biased sources of anti-Catholic propaganda and misinformation.
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The Pastor was, in fact, getting a lot of his infor from “A Woman Rides the Beast”. I remember him waving it in the air at some portion of his sermon (not kidding) and encouraging us to read an “be shocked”.

I think I’m actually going to read it, and also the book brb3 mentioned 🙂

I doubt anything i saw will change his opinion…but in light of that sermon…I’m sure I’ll give him quite a shock when he finds out I’m convertin :rolleyes:
 
beegirl said:
The Pastor was, in fact, getting a lot of his infor from “A Woman Rides the Beast”. I remember him waving it in the air at some portion of his sermon (not kidding) and encouraging us to read an “be shocked”.

I think I’m actually going to read it, and also the book brb3 mentioned 🙂

I doubt anything i saw will change his opinion…but in light of that sermon…I’m sure I’ll give him quite a shock when he finds out I’m convertin :rolleyes:
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Actually Bee, you might just as well print out the stuff at the following links (taken from above) and give them to him since they deal directly with that book by Dave Hunt. They essentially take his stuff apart.
 
What I don’t understand is what he hopes to gain by propogating this hateful message. Is he afraid of losing his congregation to the evil Catholic empire? Apparently, it’s not working. Welcome home, Bee.🙂
 
beegirl said:
I would defiantly not be surprised if this is a topic already, and if so you have my apologies. :o

As some of you know, I grew up in a Baptist Church and I go there with my parents on some Sundays (as I attend Saturday mass). Usually I don’t bring up the fact that I’m in the process of converting to Catholicism, and not a single person in the church – even the pastor – knows yet.

This Sunday the pastor launched into an all out diatribe about the Catholic church. He said, among other things, that no Catholic could truly be a Christian or grow in their faith, and that no Catholic priest would go to heaven. This, unfortunately, is nothing new. Then he went on to say that the Catholic church is actually “the Whore of Babylon” mentioned in the book of Revelation (chapter 17 I believe). He said he that “extensive research” had led him to this conclusion. 🤷

I didn’t really know what to think. Obviously I don’t believe it. I read the passage myself, but I would like to know where people are getting this idea?
Click to expand...
now you see this is exactly why i wouldn’t recommend going there until you are properly taught the faith. idk where he i getting the idea but ask him to read John Chrysostom and Ignatius of Antioch (or any early church father) and see how they describe the faith.

but in short i would recommend not going back, or if he starts to discuss catholics again just excuse yourself
 
beegirl said:
I would defiantly not be surprised if this is a topic already, and if so you have my apologies. :o

As some of you know, I grew up in a Baptist Church and I go there with my parents on some Sundays (as I attend Saturday mass). Usually I don’t bring up the fact that I’m in the process of converting to Catholicism, and not a single person in the church – even the pastor – knows yet.

This Sunday the pastor launched into an all out diatribe about the Catholic church. He said, among other things, that no Catholic could truly be a Christian or grow in their faith, and that no Catholic priest would go to heaven. This, unfortunately, is nothing new. Then he went on to say that the Catholic church is actually “the Whore of Babylon” mentioned in the book of Revelation (chapter 17 I believe). He said he that “extensive research” had led him to this conclusion. 🤷

I didn’t really know what to think. Obviously I don’t believe it. I read the passage myself, but I would like to know where people are getting this idea?
Click to expand...
Its unfortunate that there are still some who believe this sort of tripe. The notion that the Vatican was the Whore of Babylon is one that developed, I believe, to help justify the break with the Catholic Church by the Protestants.

It essentially rests on the notion that since the Pope is headquartered in Rome, and Babylon was often used as a symbol for Rome (As in Rome being the a new Babylon) it therefore stands to reason (according to there thinking) that the whore must be the Catholic Church.

To my mind, the problem with this thinking is as follows.

Babylon is clearly a symbol that indicates the Power of the World arrayed against the faithful. Babylon and Rome at their height were the most powerful states in the known world at the time. The Catholic Church clearly has never held that sort of power (Even at the height of the Church’s Power, Popes could often find themselves replaced by the Emperor of the HRE). Clearly the Church is no where near that powerful politically today (if it were the true Whore of Babylon, its power should only increase as we get closer to the End Times… which I am not sure when they are, but logically we must be closer now than we were 1000 years ago).

–
Bill
 
now you see this is exactly why i wouldn’t recommend going there until you are properly taught the faith. idk where he i getting the idea but ask him to read John Chrysostom and Ignatius of Antioch (or any early church father) and see how they describe the faith.
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but in short i would recommend not going back, or if he starts to discuss catholics again just excuse yourself
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yeah i agree. I honestly don’t want to be rude to him or anyone at the church - what good would that do? its my parents church, and i live with them, so i have to go quite regularly. but like I said, I attend mass on saturday nights, and in auguest (when RCIA starts) I’ll be going to the Catholic church only.
 
beegirl said:
the Catholic church is actually “the Whore of Babylon” mentioned in the book of Revelation
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Here’s a different perspective on the WoB…Revelation 11:8
And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
everybody knows that Jesus was crucified at Jerusalem…
Revelation 14:8
And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

So is the great city of Babylon the same as great city of Jerusalem in book of Revelation???
I’m not sure yet.
Is there one ‘great city’ in Rev or two???
I always thought there was only one.
 
John7 said:
Here’s a different perspective on the WoB…Revelation 11:8
And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
everybody knows that Jesus was crucified at Jerusalem…
Revelation 14:8
And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

So is the great city of Babylon the same as great city of Jerusalem in book of Revelation???
I’m not sure yet.
Is there one ‘great city’ in Rev or two???
I always thought there was only one.
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Well, the preterist view, which I am pretty much convinced of, agrees that the ‘harlot’ of Revelation 17 is in fact Jerusalem and Revelation is describing, in symbolic language, the fall of Jerusalem in 70AD.
 
Karmartia said:
What I don’t understand is what he hopes to gain by propogating this hateful message. Is he afraid of losing his congregation to the evil Catholic empire? Apparently, it’s not working. Welcome home, Bee.🙂
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What I don’t understand, and never did when I was away from the church and attending some fundamentalist anti-Catholic services, is why anyone would preach such things at a Sunday Service in which they are supposed to be WORSHIPPING GOD. How is THAT worship? What place does trashing another religion have in a worship service? It certainly is not God-focused. It can’t be edifying to one’s soul to hear that, or bring one closer to God, and if one finds that sort of thing spiritually uplifting, there is something wrong with their spirituality.

Which is one reason I did not last too long in the fundamentalist churches.:rolleyes: I don’t go to church to hear that sort of thing. That sort of thing does not happen in a Catholic church, or rarely (and if I ever heard it, the priest would hear about it). Mass is focused on Jesus Christ, as it should be, and we are there to worship God, not trash other religions.

Welcome to the Catholic Church, Bee. You will not have to hear this type of thing at Mass (which I am sure you already know). Don’t be afraid to announce that you are becoming Catholic. Be proud of it. You have found the truth. Stand strong for Jesus Christ.
 
beegirl said:
I would defiantly not be surprised if this is a topic already, and if so you have my apologies. :o

As some of you know, I grew up in a Baptist Church and I go there with my parents on some Sundays (as I attend Saturday mass). Usually I don’t bring up the fact that I’m in the process of converting to Catholicism, and not a single person in the church – even the pastor – knows yet.

This Sunday the pastor launched into an all out diatribe about the Catholic church. He said, among other things, that no Catholic could truly be a Christian or grow in their faith, and that no Catholic priest would go to heaven. This, unfortunately, is nothing new. Then he went on to say that the Catholic church is actually “the Whore of Babylon” mentioned in the book of Revelation (chapter 17 I believe). He said he that “extensive research” had led him to this conclusion. 🤷

I didn’t really know what to think. Obviously I don’t believe it. I read the passage myself, but I would like to know where people are getting this idea?
Click to expand...
It sure isn’t from God.
 
Ask him to show you where the phrase “whore of Babylon” appears in the book of Revelation. He can’t; it ain’t there.

(Lots of good info and links in posts above, BTW)

DaveBj (former Pentecostal and Baptist)
 
DaveBj said:
Ask him to show you where the phrase “whore of Babylon” appears in the book of Revelation. He can’t; it ain’t there.
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Yes it is … :yup:

Rev. 17:5 … “Babylon the great, mother of harlots and of earth’s abominations”.
 
John7 said:
So is the great city of Babylon the same as great city of Jerusalem in book of Revelation???
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brb3 said:
:yup:
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Sorry, but Jerusalem is not the whore of Babylon described in Revelation. One verse that will clear this up is **Revelation 17:18.

“The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.”**

Jerusalem did not rule over the kings of the earth at 70 AD nor will it at any time during the 7 year tribulation. As a matter of fact, OT end times prophecies show the nations disdain towards Jewish Jerusalem. Jesus Christ even spoke this about Jerusalem-
Luke 21:24
Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Revelation 18 further shows the whore of Babylon is not Jerusalem. Chapter 18 describes the city being destroyed and the people of the earth mourning and weeping for her. Compare this with Zechariah 12 concerning Jerusalem, where all the nations are against Jerusalem.
 
brb3 said:
Yes it is … :yup:

Rev. 17:5 … “Babylon the great, mother of harlots and of earth’s abominations”.
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Well not to be picky but this doesn’t contain the phrase: “whore of Babylon”.

Chuck
 
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