Who's first? God, Jesus or The Holy Spirit?

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2ndGen said:
PaulDupre;3220012:
Well that’s a first for me.

“perfect tense”

Never heard that before.

So we can throw away what is commonly known to mean “beget” today.

You say that God as alwasy existed as 3…and you are right…“after” time was created.

But what about before time?

Again, and this is a question that isn’t being answered here.

Why is God referred to as the One who brought forth Jesus?

To “father” is to bring forth someone and Jesus calls Him Father and calls Himself the result of fatherhood which is “Son”.
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I bellieve this question was answered quite well in posts 43 and 45.
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PaulDupre said:
No. God the Son was not created, he was begotten. Huge difference. Also, the creed does not say that the Son “was” begotten of the Father - it says the Son “is” eternally begotten of the Father. Again, huge difference. It means that this begetting is eternally on-going.

Most people misconstrue the creed to mean that the Father begot the Son and the so the Son will now exist forever. But “eternal” does not mean “forever”; it means “exists without regard to time, neither past nor future but completely and always now”. Since God created time, we cannot talk of God in terms of time.

Remember that it is God’s nature to exist as a family of three persons - the Trinity. God does not exist in any other way, and He has always existed as the Trinity. The names “Father, Son, and Holy Spirit” are not their names or titles; these titles were revealed to us for our benefit because those titles most closely approximate the roles that each of them fill - the ways that we can best understand their relationship to us and to one another. When we are admitted to the beatific vision, I believe that we will fully understand the dynamics of the three persons of the Trinity, and I believe we will be surprised at how primitive our understanding of them really is.

The eternal principle of the gospel, if you boil it down to its basics, is this: perfect obedience to perfect love is perfect joy. The Father is perfect love, the Son is perfect obedience, and the Holy Spirit is perfect Joy. These are one principle and one God. The Father’s Love begets the Son’s Obedience, and from this perfect Obedience to Love proceeds perfect Joy.

I love to meditate on the Trinity. Try it.

God love you,
Paul
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Paul, this is a beautiful reflection.

Thank you.
Tami
 
JimG said:
Let me go back to the original question: Who’s first? God, Jesus or the Holy Spirit?

That’s not really a good way to phrase it. The term “God” applies to three Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. So if you ask who is first (referring to persons), there are two correct answers.
  1. No one is first in the order of creation, since all three Persons are uncreated, co-equal and eternal.
  2. The Father is first in the order of generation, since the Father generates the Son (or Word) as a function of his self-knowing, and the Father & Son generate the Holy Spirit as a function of their mutual love. Since none of the generation takes any time, no person precedes the other temporally. All are eternal. There is no instant at which all three persons did not exist.
Finally, the Second Person—the Word—is uncreated. But He took on a human nature–body & soul–which was created at a point in time. The Person who is Jesus, however, is eternal and uncreated.
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Well said JimG. Thank you.
Tami
 
2ndGen said:
created, generated, begotten, pick your term.

All mean the same, that Jesus comes “from” God.
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No! It doesn’t mean the same thing! We are created. God is not created. If Jesus is created, it means He isn’t God. God’s fundamental nature is that He exits, meaning He was not created.

As St. Thomas Aquinas said, “God exists” is necessarily true since in that statement subject and predicate are the same!

To say “created, generated, begotten, pick your term” is appallingly sloppy. It smacks of poor catechesis. Get yourself a Catechism and actually read it. You can end up confusing alot of people by repeating these falsehoods.
 
2ndGen said:
So why does Jesus say that He cannot do anything without His Father’s authority?
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Where did He say this? Provide context and maybe we can discuss it.

I think it’s time for you to take yourself to confession and sort these things out with a priest. Arianism is a serious heresy.
 
2ndGen said:
PaulDupre;3220012:
But what about before time?
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How can such a question be answered? What is “before time”? “Before” is a concept that exists inside of time.

God exists in three persons in eternity. There was never a time when God was not, and there was never a time when God was not in three persons.
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PaulDupre said:
No, “begotten” is not past tense, it is perfect tense. It means “Jesus is (not was) eternally begotten of the Father”. It means that the begetting of the Son is complete but happens continually, as the procession of the Holy Spirit happens continually. There is no before or after with God. God has always existed as a family of three persons. He does not exist in any other way. It is His nature.

God bless you,
Paul
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I think this is a perfect explanation.
 
JimG said:
Let me go back to the original question: Who’s first? God, Jesus or the Holy Spirit?

That’s not really a good way to phrase it. The term “God” applies to three Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. So if you ask who is first (referring to persons), there are two correct answers.
  1. No one is first in the order of creation, since all three Persons are uncreated, co-equal and eternal.
  2. The Father is first in the order of generation, since the Father generates the Son (or Word) as a function of his self-knowing, and the Father & Son generate the Holy Spirit as a function of their mutual love. Since none of the generation takes any time, no person precedes the other temporally. All are eternal. There is no instant at which all three persons did not exist.
Finally, the Second Person—the Word—is uncreated. But He took on a human nature–body & soul–which was created at a point in time. The Person who is Jesus, however, is eternal and uncreated.
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Excellently put!

👍

And…

:tiphat:
 
PaulDupre said:
Sorry to see you turning hostile on me. That wasn’t my intent. By the way, when Philip encountered the Ethiopian eunuch on the road, the Ethiopian was reading the scriptures. That was the common basis that Philip used to teach him, and that’s why the eunuch was teachable.

I see that I have offended you. I apologize. I never meant to.

Paul
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Its not so much an offense as it is your assumption that I didn’t read The Bible.

The Ethiopian’s response to Philip’s question (do you understand what you’re reading) was how can I know what I’m reading unless someone explains it to me.

That’s what I’m doing here. Asking someone to explain it to me (of course, that I consider more knowledgable than I. If Philip had told him to keep reading, The Ethiopian wouldn’t have learned anything. I came here to rely on those smarter than myself.

So when you told me “you need to read the Bible”, I felt chastized for asking a question .

Can you see it from my point of view?

🙂
 
Dauphin said:
2ndGen;3220039:
How can such a question be answered? What is “before time”? “Before” is a concept that exists inside of time.

God exists in three persons in eternity. There was never a time when God was not, and there was never a time when God was not in three persons.
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Well, we know that time began at some point, so anything before time would be “before time”. The beginning of time being the starting point or standard of reference (such as anything before Christ is BC).
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Dauphin said:
Where did He say this? Provide context and maybe we can discuss it.

I think it’s time for you to take yourself to confession and sort these things out with a priest. Arianism is a serious heresy.
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John 6:38
For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

John 5:19
Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.

John 5:30
I can of myself do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is righteous; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

Matthew 6:10
Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

Matthew 26:39
And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
 
Dauphin said:
No! It doesn’t mean the same thing! We are created. God is not created. If Jesus is created, it means He isn’t God. God’s fundamental nature is that He exits, meaning He was not created.

As St. Thomas Aquinas said, “God exists” is necessarily true since in that statement subject and predicate are the same!

To say “created, generated, begotten, pick your term” is appallingly sloppy. It smacks of poor catechesis. Get yourself a Catechism and actually read it. You can end up confusing alot of people by repeating these falsehoods.
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254
The divine persons are really distinct from one another. "God is one but not solitary.

“Father”, “Son”, “Holy Spirit” are not simply names designating modalities of the divine being, for they are really distinct from one another:

"He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son.They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin:

"It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds."The divine Unity is Triune.
 
As if I’m a 2nd Grader…

Define “begotten” if the definition in the dictionary is wrong;

be·get
  1. To father; sire.
  2. To cause to exist or occur; produce: Violence begets more violence.
fa·ther
–noun
  1. a male parent.
  2. a father-in-law, stepfather, or adoptive father.
  3. any male ancestor, esp. the founder of a race, family, or line; progenitor.
  4. a man who exercises paternal care over other persons; paternal protector or provider: a father to the poor.
  5. a person who has originated or established something: the father of modern psychology; the founding fathers.
  6. a precursor, prototype, or early form: The horseless carriage was the father of the modern automobile.
  7. one of the leading men in a city, town, etc.: a scandal involving several of the city fathers.
  8. Chiefly British. the oldest member of a society, profession, etc. Compare dean1 (def. 3).
  9. a priest.
  10. (initial capital letter) Theology. the Supreme Being and Creator; God.
  11. a title of respect for an elderly man.
  12. the Father, Theology. the first person of the Trinity.
  13. Also called church father. Church History. any of the chief early Christian writers, whose works are the main sources for the history, doctrines, and observances of the church in the early ages.
  14. Ecclesiastical. a. (often initial capital letter) a title of reverence, as for church dignitaries, officers of monasteries, monks, confessors, and esp. priests.
    b. a person bearing this title.
  15. fathers,
    Roman History. conscript fathers.
    –verb (used with object)
  16. to beget.
  17. to be the creator, founder, or author of; originate.
  18. to act as a father toward.
  19. to acknowledge oneself the father of.
  20. to assume as one’s own; take the responsibility of.
  21. to charge with the begetting of.
    –verb (used without object)
  22. to perform the tasks or duties of a male parent; act paternally: Somehow he was able to write a book while fathering.
 
No person in the Holy Trinity has ever existed without the others. This would mean that in the beginning somehow God was incomplete. Because the Holy Trinity is God, every person has to have always existed.
 
Yes, the Father did beget the Son however since The Holy Trinity always had to be present, although the Father created the Son it doesn’t mean that the Son didn’t always exist. We can think of the Son as always having been created. You have to remember that God is beyond time and space.
 
holdencaulfield said:
No person in the Holy Trinity has ever existed without the others. This would mean that in the beginning somehow God was incomplete. Because the Holy Trinity is God, every person has to have always existed.
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Everybody says that because it’s what they read, but the Catechism states that God generated Jesus Christ.

What does that mean if it doesn’t mean that God begot Jesus (sired Him)?
 
I think i usually have an in built bias in praying to a creator which i think of as the Father but in essence for our faith it is the whole trinity.

I think the trinities nature is difficult at the best of times but when i pray i am aware of God’s differents components which provides a richly diverse relationship. As such i don’t think of one component being more important than the other because they are all connected as one being to my mind.

As no-one is like God we can’t really have an idea of his nature apart from revelation.

Perhaps we should ask the blessed Mother Mary during her next apparition. 🙂
 
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