Who's freer athiest or Catholic?

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James

**To put it less morbidly, if good is absolute and objective, and God existent and apparent, maintaining that we have free will is a theological violation because it pretends that we have a choice to make. How could anyone be so arrogant as to believe they have a choice to make in the face of all that is good? A fool, indeed. **

There’s the rub. We do have free will. We have the free will to throw away our souls just as the suicide has the free will to throw away his life. Nobody has to do either. We are all invited by God, commanded even, to save both our bodies and our souls. But God is not a determinist. He does not whip us into submission by the sheer force of his will. He even allows the atheist the freedom to say there is no God; but he also requires the atheist to live with the consequences of his freedom, just as the Christian must live with the consequences of his own freedom to be a good man or a cad.

Scripture tells us the fool in his heart says there is no God. But there are fools among Christians too, who throw away their chances of salvation because they have foolishly joined their cause with Satan rather than with Christ.
 
Interesting to read your signature line too, as it seems a little contradictory in this context:

“A bad society is a society that makes it easy to be bad…”

Just a moment ago God was being praised for not being deterministic, yet this quote seems to imply that the more society constrains our potential or options for deviation, the better it is. Taking this to the extreme, the best society is the one which extinguishes freedom to deviate, and with it, the performance of sin. Yet this would produce good by determinism. Would it be better to say “A good society is a society which makes it easy to be a little bit bad”? Maybe it would. If you disagree with that, hopefully you will agree with the following, rather tediously long, argument

I think the message of Christianity is fundamentally about obedience, obedience which is ultimately good and spiritually nourishing, rather than freedom. We are supposed to be servants of God, inferior, humble creatures, so why would freedom even befit our nature? Adam and Eve sought whatever knowledge and power was represented by the fruit, and were clearly punished for that desire. We are not meant to be equal to God, or even independent, but to be His sons and daughters. I also reckon that free will is not about freedom, but is a way to understand what is claimed to be our bodily and post-Fall reality. In this state we experience pleasure, temptation, ignorance, and we are distanced from Christ/God because (in my opinion) He is not directly perceptible. How do we still have faith in the absence of conclusive proof that God exists and morals are absolute/objective? By aligning pleasure, ignorance and temptation on the one hand into a perceived pathway in life, and counterposing it with the pathway of the good that we think of but cannot prove for sure.

That way, there do appear to be viable options to decide between in life, and the choice to side with good does actually seem like a choice, and a sacrifice. There are two perspectives here: with an atheist hat on it is easy to say ‘Christian free will is a concept that reduces the falsifiability of belief in Jesus’. It solidifies and makes intuitive and urgent the need for faith, and makes that faith more earnest inversely to the amount of available evidence. However, from a theological viewpoint, (where the truth is grasped in spite of the temptation of pleasure and the fog of ignorance), I reckon free will/freedom is exposed as illusory, because its realism is predicated on valuing sin. From the illumination of theology, it seems that we face a dichotomy in life where we can only ever seek the good, and as such, do not need to make a decision or choice, but instead to try our hardest to stick to what we know.

If freedom is the goal, deviation from God has to be permitted equally to conforming, so that we really do have the ability to choose our own pathway and not be treated as more than a little bit bad for doing it.
 
James

**If freedom is the goal, deviation from God has to be permitted equally to conforming, so that we really do have the ability to choose our own pathway and not be treated as more than a little bit bad for doing it. **

You are certainly consistent in refusing to believe that actions should not have consequences if we are to be truly free. Freedom is not the beginning and end of life. All our freedoms our tied to our well being and should be regulated (controlled, restrained) by wisdom. If you smoke or drink or eat too much, you are free to do so, but you are also a slave to your passions and nature will not forgive them … early death is in the offing.

So it is with God. He gives us the freedom to flaunt our will against His and call it freedom. He also tells us there will be consequences. But the choice is ours to make, not His.
 
How is a Cathiolic more free than an athiest?
Oooh. Tricky. This one depends on how the argument is framed.

To a Catholic, “freedom” refers to a release from a sort of slavery. Ours is a dualistic sort of philosophy which acknowledges that there is a clear, objective good and that our sinful inclinations prevent us like a slave’s shackles from approaching it. It is the grace of God which allows us - frees us - to apprach the good, and in this sense, which begs the Catholic worldview, we are freer than the atheist.

To an atheist, often there is no clear, objective good. Depending on his particular sub-philosophies, he will likely frame the argument such as that freedom refers to the ability to make a choice without coercion.

I posit that there is no way to even argue this without addressing the particular axioms which lead us to disparate conclusions. I understand, however, that such discussion is verboten, so ours is not to delve but to wonder.

: passive-aggressive sigh :
 
Don’t we have to arrive at theism from atheism? We are born unthinking babies who have no beliefs, and have to learn, understand and then believe in God, so it is no good to ask and answer the question of freedom from within the Catholic system, it must be explainable from concepts outside of itself. Atheists might well generally say freedom is the ability to make a choice without coercion to do so, while theists might regard that coercion as justified. However, it does have to be justified, and the coercion cannot be ignored. I think in justifying the coercion it becomes clear that obedience is called for, not freedom, and it is obviously the case that saying coercion is necessary does not make actions performed under it ‘free’ in an externally meaningful sense.
 
Don’t we have to arrive at theism from atheism? We are born unthinking babies who have no beliefs, and have to learn, understand and then believe in God, so it is no good to ask and answer the question of freedom from within the Catholic system, it must be explainable from concepts outside of itself.
That, as they say, is the joke. Without first validating my axioms, I could no more convince you that I am more free in the sense I just described than you could convince me that there is no God without first tearing the same axioms down.
Atheists might well generally say freedom is the ability to make a choice without coercion to do so, while theists might regard that coercion as justified. However, it does have to be justified, and the coercion cannot be ignored. I think in justifying the coercion it becomes clear that obedience is called for, not freedom, and it is obviously the case that saying coercion is necessary does not make actions performed under it ‘free’ in an externally meaningful sense.
I would call this dichotomy a fallacy. Obedience is indeed called for but only a free obedience. Could it be (if I may beg the question for a moment) that this scarcity of evidence regarding God which you cite elsewhere is a part of the equation - that the the ease of disbelief is intentional? When all of one’s bulging glands point one way and a scarce (however irrefutable;)) bit of evidence the other, the final determining factor, I posit, is the will…

Apart from grace, of course (If I may disclaim so as to avoid the charge of heresy from my own team).
 
Obedience is indeed called for but only a free obedience.
Well, if this makes sense to anyone, so be it! It is very hard to include the existence of Hell in this viewpoint, because the prospect of Hell, just like torture, is rather inhibiting of one’s thoughts and actions. It only seems possible to believe in free will if the existence of God is not apparent. One actively uses the idea that there might be Hell awaiting to help keep on the straight and narrow, and hopes that forcing one’s mind around the implausibility will gain brownie points from Upstairs. (That’s how it seems to me) However, If Catholicism was so obvious, no one would have free will or freedom; the only goal would be to try to follow God’s will and there would be no choice to believe and no possibility of desiring to err. Desiring something is surely the main prerequisite to acting freely. Anyway, one pathyway does not equal freedom, though it may equal eternal and boundless good.
Could it be (if I may beg the question for a moment) that this scarcity of evidence regarding God which you cite elsewhere is a part of the equation that the the ease of disbelief is intentional?
This is also a horrendous thought, that God might make disbelief easy. How caring is that?
 
I would love to ask an apologist about the meaning of freedom in the context of these questions, but would not want to ask an obviously provocative question that might simply be annoying. Ultimately, I guess the response would be, with some irony, if the Bible commands that you are free, you are.
 
This reminds me of the NonStampCollector YouTube video Titled: Free Will - “God Style” PART 2.
I love that video! It seems to me that what Christians see as a free choice is really blackmail. Love God or burn.
How do we define freedom?

I often hear atheists say that they don’t like the constraints that religion puts on people and that they want to do what they like and live how they want. However, that is not reality. Society puts all sorts of constraints on people and we are never truly free to do what we like. Faith doesn’t have much to do with this.That is my answer to an atheist.
I wouldn’t say so. Most of the restraints that society places on our behavior are morally justified. The restraints that some atheists (including me) resent about religion are mental restraints. Ever since I abandoned Catholicism, I have much more freedom to think for myself about important issues, rather than restrict my thoughts to those that conform to doctrine and dogma. This, in turn, also gives me higher moral responsibility. I now expect myself to have a better reason for having the moral beliefs I do than “well, the Catholic Church says so, so it must be true”. I used to laugh at how complicated morality seemed to non-Catholics, but it really is complicated.
I believe we Catholic are more free because we have more than just pop culture and politics of the day to give meaning to our lives. We are free of the shallowness of the time.
So do atheists. I must say, it is liberating to realize that I have the power to make of my life whatever I deem fulfilling. I no longer have to feel as if the only purpose of my life is to get to heaven (which is what a serious Catholic told me).

Might I ask what there is to your life that makes it more fulfilling than mine? Just an earnest question. 🙂
 
I wouldn’t say so. Most of the restraints that society places on our behavior are morally justified. The restraints that some atheists (including me) resent about religion are mental restraints. Ever since I abandoned Catholicism, I have much more freedom to think for myself about important issues, rather than restrict my thoughts to those that conform to doctrine and dogma. This, in turn, also gives me higher moral responsibility. I now expect myself to have a better reason for having the moral beliefs I do than “well, the Catholic Church says so, so it must be true”. I used to laugh at how complicated morality seemed to non-Catholics, but it really is complicated.
While that might seem appealing it is not a very workable system. Children are instructed in morals. They aren’t expected to just figure them out. I’m quite sure you were instructed in morals. Any thinking you now do is based on your instruction. You can certainly reject your instruction but I have a feeling you mostly accept it, though you might categorically reject some broad areas. If a parent left children to just figure out morality most people would morally condemn that parent. If someone’s child stole from you and the parent excused the behavior because the kid had yet to figure out on their own that stealing was bad would you accept that as being a great example of the freedom of the individual to work out morality on their own?
 
**James

This is also a horrendous thought, that God might make disbelief easy. How caring is that? **

Why is disbelief easier than belief? Because it is lazy. No God … poof! Sleep in Sunday morning. 👍

But God is caring because he exhorts us to labor in virtue. It is the self-serving rebel who does not labor at belief and virtue who is not caring.

Planty

Most of the restraints that society places on our behavior are morally justified. The restraints that some atheists (including me) resent about religion are mental restraints. Ever since I abandoned Catholicism, I have much more freedom to think for myself about important issues, rather than restrict my thoughts to those that conform to doctrine and dogma. This, in turn, also gives me higher moral responsibility. I now expect myself to have a better reason for having the moral beliefs I do than “well, the Catholic Church says so, so it must be true”. I used to laugh at how complicated morality seemed to non-Catholics, but it really is complicated.

You as a Catholic were always free to think for yourself, but within certain bounds.

You have really hit the proverbial nail on the head. You are now free to think without boundaries. In other words, without God, everything is permitted if you can (in your own mind at least) logically justify it. But reason is a whore and will sell herself to the bidder with the right will power to bend her and break her for ungodly purposes.

Why do you suppose so many ex-Catholics are homosexuals? They have flaunted their egos in the face of common sense and common decency. So much easier than struggling to keep the faith. :rolleyes:
 
**James

This is also a horrendous thought, that God might make disbelief easy. How caring is that? **

Why is disbelief easier than belief? Because it is lazy. No God … poof! Sleep in Sunday morning. 👍

But God is caring because he exhorts us to labor in virtue. It is the self-serving rebel who does not labor at belief and virtue who is not caring.
You say that as if the truth is obvious. If the truth is not obvious, and disbelief is made easy, many more people will burn in Hell. God sets the levels of human capacity to understand and God provides so little for humanity to work on that disbelief is easy? It has to be a virtue to have faith where understanding is inadequate, sure. But at the same time God is needlessly condemning more people to Hell than necessary.
 
While that might seem appealing it is not a very workable system. Children are instructed in morals. They aren’t expected to just figure them out. I’m quite sure you were instructed in morals. Any thinking you now do is based on your instruction. You can certainly reject your instruction but I have a feeling you mostly accept it, though you might categorically reject some broad areas. If a parent left children to just figure out morality most people would morally condemn that parent. If someone’s child stole from you and the parent excused the behavior because the kid had yet to figure out on their own that stealing was bad would you accept that as being a great example of the freedom of the individual to work out morality on their own?
That’s not exactly what I meant. Certainly, a moral framework in which people should be instructed is a good thing. A good starting point is the Golden Rule for those who are too young to understand moral philosophy. My point is that the Catholic Church just tells people what is moral based on foundations that I find unsatisfactory. Its claims of black-and-white morality and “intrinsic evil” (as opposed to circumstantial evil) lead us to moral conclusions that are absurd. For example, would it be moral to kill an innocent person in order to cure every human that is alive and ever will live of cancer? Catholics would say “no” based on the principle of a human life’s “intrinsic value”.
Why is disbelief easier than belief? Because it is lazy. No God … poof! Sleep in Sunday morning.
I know this is supposed to be facetious, but I could just as easily say, “Why is disbelief in the existence of aliens that will kill you if you don’t buy a purple hat easier than belief? Because it is lazy. No aliens, poof! You don’t have to buy a purple hat. 👍

Apathy isn’t always a bad thing if you are apathetic to something that is unreasonable to believe.
 
That’s not exactly what I meant. Certainly, a moral framework in which people should be instructed is a good thing. A good starting point is the Golden Rule for those who are too young to understand moral philosophy. My point is that the Catholic Church just tells people what is moral based on foundations that I find unsatisfactory. Its claims of black-and-white morality and “intrinsic evil” (as opposed to circumstantial evil) lead us to moral conclusions that are absurd.
I used to really value thinking everything out on my own and being independent. As I’ve gotten older I’ve realized the benefit in being able to just accept some things without spending all my time worrying about how we got there. This allows me the freedom to truly explore because I dont have to start from scratch.

Think about it this way. If the same rule were applied to science then we’d get nowhere. Everyone who wanted to be a scientist would have to start from scratch and run every experiment to prove what is considered established in order to make new discoveries.

Also this standard might work for you. You are obviously a smart person. I’ve mentioned the child. But what about the simple minded adult? They dont have the capacity to reason through these things the same way you can. It would be wrong to expect a simple minded person to use their reason to get as far as the brilliant thinker. An obligation for intelligent people is to uphold the system that provides morals for the simple minded. Rebellion against the system is bad in as much as it encourages those without the skills to reason properly to reject the only authority that would keep them in check.
For example, would it be moral to kill an innocent person in order to cure every human that is alive and ever will live of cancer? Catholics would say “no” based on the principle of a human life’s “intrinsic value”.
That might seem like a good reason to condemn Catholic morality. But lets change the situation. Would it be wrong to enslave a human being if that slave’s work could feed ten thousand people? We can then keep reducing the number down to one person. Most people, including atheist moralists, would probably say that slavery is always wrong. If it turns out not to be intrinsically wrong then we need to re-institute it to the benefit of mankind.
 
James

**If the truth is not obvious, and disbelief is made easy, many more people will burn in Hell. God sets the levels of human capacity to understand and God provides so little for humanity to work on that disbelief is easy? It has to be a virtue to have faith where understanding is inadequate, sure. But at the same time God is needlessly condemning more people to Hell than necessary. **

That’s another question it is not ours to answer. We simply do not know the population of heaven or hell. But that both are inhabited is for sure. You pays your money and you takes your choice. God doesn’t send you to either place … since you have freely chosen one or the other … and have been given fair warning from the start.

The complaint that belief should be easier than it is will, of course, be accompanied by the complaint that virtue should be easier than it is. Perhaps you have noticed that everything really good in life is not easy to come by or to hold on to. But the only thing that is really easy is the road to hell, and we can grease that all we want without much effort. :D.
 
Charlemagne II,

If you have freely chosen, you mean;)

Which of course it is difficult to achieve with the weight of Hell on your shoulders, whether it should be there or not.

Virtue is acting in accordance with God, but as far as I can see, actually acting as God wants is of no importance compared with thinking as God wants. Take the mass murderer’s sincere deathbed conversion. So the key bit is thought. If it is difficult to achieve comprehension of the good/God, what would be the reason for this? To ensure that some people cannot see God and so end up in Hell?

It is a mystery to me.
 
How is a Cathiolic more free than an athiest?
It would depend on if the catholic lives out his faith.

If you live out your faith and you believe in the word of God you will follow his commands. You may think that you are less free but ironically you have more freedom then you can ever imagine.

Because when you obey the Lord and have complete trust and love in him he takes away all of your anxietys. You learn that when you cannot carry yourself anylonger in this world he will pick you up and carry you. You have exra help from above to help you when you are in times of struggle.

If you had no faith you would never feel that peace and love of our dear Lord to help you relax and let God help you with your problems.
 
James

So the key bit is thought. If it is difficult to achieve comprehension of the good/God, what would be the reason for this? To ensure that some people cannot see God and so end up in Hell?

People cannot see God unless they do not want to see Him. All nations have recognized the deity in one form or another. Even polytheism is an attempt to find God. But more than that, all want to believe in an afterlife of some sort or another except those who do not want to believe in God. The hope of mankind is in religion. The despair of mankind is in atheism. This is why the suicide rate among atheists is well documented to be universally higher than the suicide rate among theists.

This is the hell that atheists prefer … the hell of fearing nothingness rather than the fear of the Christian hell that one freely chooses for one’s self by the freely chosen evil deeds committed in this life.
 
Think about it this way. If the same rule were applied to science then we’d get nowhere. Everyone who wanted to be a scientist would have to start from scratch and run every experiment to prove what is considered established in order to make new discoveries.
I absolutely agree here. It would not be reasonable of me to expect myself to have to explain everything I take to be true. Sometimes a certain level of trust in authorities who know what they’re doing is necessary. I don’t know how exactly Einstein knew that travelling at a speed close to that of light would cause time dilation, for example, but considering that his findings have stood the test of one of the most rigorous standards of determining truth (scientific inquiry), I have reason to think that he was right.

The problem is, I don’t think that that is applicable to morality. A strong moral conscience is something that all humans have both the duty and the right to have. A parent may be justified in telling a child to do things “because I said so”, but I think most adults are intelligent enough to be able to understand certain objective moral philosophies like desire utilitarianism. I think that if every fairly intelligent human being knew exactly why certain behaviors are harmful and others are helpful, the world would be a much better place, since the people who normally commit senseless crimes would have no (or at least weaker) reasons to do so. Obviously, if you teach a teenager why smoking is bad for you, s/he won’t do it if s/he is even moderately sensible. Perhaps the same methods of persuasion and education could be used to modify people’s beliefs about the consequences of their actions, and, hence, their morality. That’s what desire utilitarianism is all about. A bright man named Alonzo Fyfe has written an entire book full of essays about the subject.
Also this standard might work for you. You are obviously a smart person. I’ve mentioned the child. But what about the simple minded adult? They dont have the capacity to reason through these things the same way you can. It would be wrong to expect a simple minded person to use their reason to get as far as the brilliant thinker. An obligation for intelligent people is to uphold the system that provides morals for the simple minded. Rebellion against the system is bad in as much as it encourages those without the skills to reason properly to reject the only authority that would keep them in check.
Maybe it’s just false modesty speaking, but I think you aren’t giving most adults enough credit. If there are that many “simple-minded adults”, perhaps we can change that. The educational system - at least below the university level - does a poor job of instructing young people in some of the most important issues in life, ethics most of all. Sure, most schools have a code of ethics and use discipline on students who do not follow that code, but most of them also do not provide students with even a basic understanding of why that code is the way it is. Children are just taught, “XYZ is bad, ABC is right, and that’s the end of it”.

But that isn’t the end of it, and I think that, if more educators become open to the idea that ethics may be both objective and independent of religion, our society may be able to teach future generations what the “end of it” really is. Instead of teaching kids how to speak languages that they probably will completely forget by the time they enter high school and have to learn those languages over again, we should be teaching about strong ethical foundations. Making those foundations secular helps because - and this will sound strange coming from an atheist - some young former Christians become atheists and jump to the conclusion that morality is as much of a myth as the virgin birth story. I have heard testimonies of this, although I did not go through it myself. By teaching young people that morality is about more than just following Jesus, this problem will be overcome, among others.
That might seem like a good reason to condemn Catholic morality. But lets change the situation. Would it be wrong to enslave a human being if that slave’s work could feed ten thousand people? We can then keep reducing the number down to one person. Most people, including atheist moralists, would probably say that slavery is always wrong. If it turns out not to be intrinsically wrong then we need to re-institute it to the benefit of mankind.
It seems to me that the difference between these two situations is that, in the second one, there is no reason to think that the slave-to-be’s consent must be compromised. If you try to enslave a person, s/he will most likely resist and demand consent in the matter. So you could give the slave-to-be the freedom to choose in this matter. I cannot conceive of a real-world situation in which asking for the slave-to-be’s consent would be impossible. That cannot be said for the first situation; there are any number of circumstances in which a potential murder victim for the sake of the many would be impossible to consult in the matter.

In short, I honestly do not have an answer to your hypothetical, but the main issue I have with Catholic morality is that it would condemn killing one innocent for the sake of the many even if the innocent person were to give his/her consent. “Intrinsic value” is not dependent on consent. The value of consent that I see in a moral code is that respect for consent respects a right that, if compromised, could result in total anarchy. I think that there are some situations in which it is morally justified to compromise consent for the sake of the many, but those are a minority and are often not applicable to the real world, where consent is easy to obtain.
 
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