Whose Witnesses are Better?

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SirThomasMore

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Mormons often point to the witnesses who say they saw the plates. They try to explain away the fact that Joe called all of them, at one time or another, liars who could be trusted. They try to explain away the fact that Martin Harris claimed they only saw them with spiritual eyes. They try to overlook other defects in the witnesses and stand by them unwaiveringly.

Yet, here are some other witnesses…

Solomon Spaulding was born in Ashford, Conn. in 1761, and in early life contracted a taste for literary pursuits… After preaching three or four years, he gave it up, removed to Cherry Valley, N.Y., and commenced the mercantile business in company with his brother Jasiah. In a few years he failed in business, and in the year 1809 removed to Conneaut, in Ohio. The year following, I removed to Ohio, and found him engaged in building a forge. I made him a visit in about three years after; and found that he had failed, and considerably involved in debt. He then told me had he been writing a book, which he intended to have printed, the avails of which he thought would enable him to pay all his debts. The book was entitled the ‘Manuscript Found,’ of which he read to me many passages. It was an historical romance of the first settlers of America, endeavoring to show that the American Indians are the descendants of the Jews, or the lost tribes. It gave a detailed account of their journey from Jerusalem, by land and sea, till they arrived in America, under the command of NEPHI AND LEHI. They afterwards had quarrels and contentions, and separated into two distinct nations, one of which he denominated Nephites and the other Lamanites. Cruel and bloody wars ensued, in which great multitudes were slain. They buried their dead in large heaps, which cause the mounds so common in this country. Their arts, sciences, and civilizations were brought into view, in order to account for all the curious antiquities, found in various parts of North and South America. I have recently read the Book of Mormon, and to my great surprise I find nearly the same historical matter, names, &c. as they were in my brother’s writings. I well remember that he wrote in the old style, and commenced about every sentence with ‘and it came to pass,’ or ‘now it came to pass,’ the same as in the Book of Mormon, and according to the best of my recollection and belief, it is the same as my brother Solomon wrote, with the exception of the religious matter. By what means it has fallen into the hands of Joseph Smith, Jr. I am unable to determine.”
  • John Spalding, brother of Solomon, Affidavit, as quoted in Mormonism Unveiled, by E.D. Howe, pp. 278-280
“I was personally acquainted with Solomon Spaulding, about twenty years ago. I was at his house a short time before he left Conneaut; he was then writing a historical novel founded upon the first settlers of America. He represented them as an enlightened and warlike people. He had for many years contended that the aborigines of America were the descendants of some of the lost tribes of Israel, and this idea he carried out in the book in question. The laps of time which has intervened, prevents my recollecting but few of the leading incidents of his writings; but the names of Nephi and Lehi are yet fresh in my memory, as being the principal heroes of his tale. They were officers of the company which first came off from Jerusalem. He gave a particular account of their journey by land and sea, till they arrived in America, after which, disputes arose between the chiefs, which caused them to separate into different lands, one of which was called Lamanites and the other Nephites. Between these were recounted tremendous battles, which frequently covered the ground with the slain; and their being buried in large heaps was the cause of the numerous mounds in the country. Some of these people he represented as being very large. I have read the Book of Mormon, which has brought fresh to my recollection the writings of Solomon Spaulding; and I have no manner of doubt that the historical part of it, is the same that I read and heard read, more than 20 years ago. The old, obsolete style, and the phrases of ‘and it came to pass,’ etc. are the same.”
  • Martha Spalding, wife of John Spalding, Affidavit, as quoted in Mormonism Unveiled, by E.D. Howe, p. 281
 
continued:

“We would here remark by the way, that it would appear that Sol. Spaulding, like many other authors, was somewhat vain of his writing, and was constantly showing and reading them to his neighbors.”
  • E.D. Howe, Mormonism Unveiled, p. 281
“This book ‘Manuscript Found’] represented the American Indians as the descendants of the lost tribes, gave an account of their leaving Jerusalem, their contentions and wars, which were many and great. One time, when he was reading to me the tragic account of Laban, I pointed out to him what I considered an inconsistency, which he promised to correct; but by referring to the Book of Mormon, I find to my surprise that it stands there just as he read it to me then… I was astonished to find the same passages in it that Spaulding had read to me more than twenty years before, from his ‘Manuscript Found.’ Since then, I have more fully examined the said Golden Bible, and have no hesitation in saying that the historical part of it is principally, if not wholly taken from the ‘Manuscript Found.’ I well recollect telling Mr. Spaulding, that the so frequent use of the words ‘And it came to pass,’ ‘Now it came to pass,’ rendered it ridiculous. Spaulding left here in 1812, and I furnished him the means to carry him to Pittsburgh, where he said he would get the book printed, and pay me. But I never heard any more from him or his writings, till I saw them in the Book of Mormon.”
  • Henry Lake, co-worker and friend of Solomon Spalding, Affidavit, as quoted in Mormonism Unveiled, by E.D. Howe, pp. 281-282
“It ‘Manuscript Found] purported to be the history of the first settlement of America, before discovered by Columbus. He brought them off from Jerusalem, under their leaders; detailing their travels by land and water, their manners, customs, laws, war, etc. He said that he designed it as a historical novel, and that in after years it would be believed by many people as much as the history of England…
“I have recently examined the Book of Mormon, and find in it the writings of Solomon Spaulding, from beginning to end, but mixed up with scripture and other religious matter, which I did not meet with in the ‘Manuscript Found.’ Many of the passages in the Mormon Book are verbatim from Spaulding, and others in part. The names of Nephi, Lehi, Moroni, and in fact all the principal names, are brought fresh to my recollection by the Gold Bible. When Spaulding divested his history of its fabulous names, by a verbal explanation, he landed near the Straits of Darien, which I am confident he called Zarahemla, they were marched about that country for a length of time, in which wars and great blood shed ensued, he brought them across North America in a north east direction.”
  • John N. Miller, co-worker of Solomon Spaulding, Affidavit, as quoted in Mormonism Unveiled, by E.D. Howe, p. 283
“When at his [Solomon Spaulding’s] house, one day, he showed and read to me a history he was writing, of the lost tribes of Israel, purporting that they were the first settlers of America, and that the Indians were their descendants… He traced their journey from Jerusalem to America, as it is given in the Book of Mormon, excepting the religious matter. The historical part of the Book of Mormon, I know to be the same as I read and heard from the writings of Spaulding, more than twenty years ago; the names more especially are the same without any alteration… I once anticipated reading his writings in print, but little expected to see them in a new Bible. Spaulding had many other manuscripts, which I expect to see when Smith translates his other plate. In conclusion, I will observe, that the names of, and most of the historical part of the Book of Mormon, were as familiar to me before I read it, as most modern history. If it is not Spaulding’s writing, it is the same as he wrote; and if Smith was inspired, I think it was by the same spirit that Spaulding was, which he confessed to be the love of money.”
  • Aaron Wright, friend of Solomon Spaulding, Affidavit, as quoted in Mormonism Unveiled, by E.D. Howe, p. 284
“[Solomon Spaulding] told me that he was writing a history of that race of people; and afterwards frequency showed me his writings, which I read. I have lately read the Book of Mormon, and believe it to be the same as Spaulding wrote, except the religious part.”
  • Nahum Howard, Affidavit, as quoted in Mormonism Unveiled, by E.D. Howe, pp. 285-286
“All his [Solomon Spaulding’s] leisure hours were occupied in writing a historical novel, founded upon the first settlers of this country. He said he intended to trace their journey from Jerusalem, by land and sea, till their arrival in America, give an account of their arts, sciences, civilization, wars and contentions. In this way, he would give a satisfactory account of all of the old mounds, so common to this country… Nephi and Lehi were by him represented as leading characters, when they first started for America… no religious matter was introduced, as I now recollect… When I heard the historical part of it related, I at once said it was the writings of old Solomon Spaulding. Soon after, I obtained the book, and on reading it, found much of it the same as Spaulding had written, more than twenty years before.”
  • Oliver Smith, Affidavit, as quoted in Mormonism Unveiled, by E.D. Howe, pp. 284-285
 
Continued:

“Before showing me his [Solomon Spaulding’s] manuscripts, he went into a verbal relation of its outlines, saying that it was a fabulous or romantic history of the first settlement of this country, and as it purported to have been a record found buried in the earth, or in a cave, he had adopted the ancient or scripture style of writing… I well remember the name of Nephi, which appeared to be the principal hero of the story. The frequent repetition of the phrase, ‘I Nephi,’ I recollect as distinctly as though it was but yesterday, although the general featuers of the story have passed from my memory… The Mormon Bible I have particularly examined, and am fully of the opinion that Solomon Spaulding had written its outlines before he left Conneaut.”
  • Artemas Cunningham, Affidavit, as quoted in Mormonism Unveiled, by E.D. Howe, pp. 286-287
“We are, then, irresistibly led to this conclusion: that Lambdin, after having failed in business, had recourse to the old manuscripts then in his possession, in order to raise the wind, by a book speculation, and placed the ‘Manuscript Found’ of Spaulding, in the hands of [Sidney] Rigdon, to be embellished, altered, and added to, as he might think expedient; and three years’ study of the Bible we should deem little time enough to garble it, as it is transferred to the Mormon book… where could a more suitable character be found than Jo Smith, whose necromantic fame and arts of deception, had already extended to a considerable distance? … Add to all these circumstances, the facts, that Rigdon had prepared the minds in a great measure, of nearly a hundred of those who had attended his ministration to be in readiness to embrace the first mysterious ism that should be presented – the appearance of [Oliver] Cowdery at his residence as soon as the Book was printed – his sudden coversion, after many pretensions to disbelieve it – his immediately repairing to the residence of Smith, 300 miles distant, where he was forthwith appointed an elder, high priest, and a scribe to the prophet – the pretended vision that his residence in Ohio was the ‘promised land,’ the immediate removal of the whole Smith family thither, where they were soon raised from a state of poverty to comparative affluence. We therefore, must hold out Sidney Rigdon to the world as being the original author and proprietor’ of the whole Mormon conspiracy, until further light is elicited upon the lost writings of Solomon Spaulding.”
  • E.D. Howe, Mormonism Unveiled, pp. 289-290
Now, unless Mormons have evidence that these witnesses are as bad as Joe said the Book of Mormon witnesses are, why are the Spaulding witnesses discounted?
 
so, does silence mean that Mormons recognize that the Spaulding witnesses are more credible than the men Joe called liars?
 
I find it hard to understand how Mormons can say they believe what Joe said, yet when Joe calls the witnesses liars and people who can’t be trusted, they stop believing Joe and believe the witnesses. But the witnesses also, at times, said Joe was a liar and could be trusted. So the Mormons believe the witnesses regarding the plates, but stop believing the witnesses when they say Joe is a liar.

That just seems like an odd way to have a belief system
 
Reading the Fawn book, it’s amazing how the witnesses, including one of his brothers, all seem to fall away from Smith at one time or another. Of course members will say they chose the side of satan. Some of those like Rigdon seemed power hungry and fanatical.
 
It is as if they were a bunch of criminals involved in a conspiracy and when it was successful, they all wanted more than the others had…They could never come clean because they would have all been implicated.
 
I think it all boils down to JS being a meglomaniac, and drawing those around him into his delusion.
 
Defining witnesses is probably the crux of Catholicism vs other religions that bring a different message.
 
TikiTokiguy said:
Reading the Fawn book, it’s amazing how the witnesses, including one of his brothers, all seem to fall away from Smith at one time or another. Of course members will say they chose the side of satan. Some of those like Rigdon seemed power hungry and fanatical.
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Actually no. Most mormons would claim that the many of the witnesses who fell away from the lds church never denied what they saw and experienced. In fact, most if not all had deathbed testimonies about what they saw and experienced. No one denied their testimony. And that speaks a lot about the book of mormon. Now Rigdon on his deathbed denied that he wrote the book of mormon and his wife testified that sidney could not have written that book.

Sidney was far from fanatical and power hungry. However in the 1830’s a mob dragged him from his home and beat him close to death and dragged him through the streets and left him for dead. That experience had a tremendous impact on his life.
 
SirThomasMore said:
It is as if they were a bunch of criminals involved in a conspiracy and when it was successful, they all wanted more than the others had…They could never come clean because they would have all been implicated.
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If you say so, SirThomas. But the truth is much better. All of these witnesses never denied their testimony even on their deathbeds. And that speaks much as they prepared to meet their maker. In fact, even though some of them fell away from the lds church, they attempted to make things right before god by again given their testimony about they saw and felt with their hands. And that speaks much.
 
twopekinguys said:
I think it all boils down to JS being a meglomaniac, and drawing those around him into his delusion.
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Yes he was quite a guy. :rolleyes: All the witnesses never denied their testimony of the book of mormon. All confirmed their testimony before their friends and family. Quite amazing really. And a very powerful truth claim for the mormons. But if you think that JS was a meglomaniac, so be it.
 
why_me said:
Yes he was quite a guy. :rolleyes: All the witnesses never denied their testimony of the book of mormon. All confirmed their testimony before their friends and family. Quite amazing really. And a very powerful truth claim for the mormons. But if you think that JS was a meglomaniac, so be it.
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ah…so you ignore the initial question. Who are the better witnesses…ones we cannot trust because even Joe said they were liars (and they said Joe was a liar) or the Spaulding witnesses who, as far as I know, have their integrity intact?
 
SirThomasMore said:
ah…so you ignore the initial question. Who are the better witnesses…ones we cannot trust because even Joe said they were liars (and they said Joe was a liar) or the Spaulding witnesses who, as far as I know, have their integrity intact?
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Good point!!
 
Wow, Thomas, you ate your Wheaties before starting this post. It’s gonna take me a while to absorb all of it and have something appropriate to add.
 
And those aren’t the only witnesses to Spalding’s manuscript. And they all read or heard it with their own physical eyes. And a few more heard about it. The one I find the most compelling is the composite testimony of Matilda Spalding McKinstry and Redick McKee, who saw it and heard it as young people. The argument that Howe coached or distorted the original testimonies he collected can’t fly, with what Spalding’s daughter and boarder had do say much later.
 
and there was Solomon Spaldings manuscript mangled into the Book of Mormon. It must have been an amazing experience.
 
why_me said:
Yes he was quite a guy. :rolleyes: All the witnesses never denied their testimony of the book of mormon. All confirmed their testimony before their friends and family. Quite amazing really. And a very powerful truth claim for the mormons. But if you think that JS was a meglomaniac, so be it.
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You also need to consider the facts that Oliver Cowdery had at least two warrants for his arrest for theft, that Martin Harris changed religions more often than I change clothes, and that David Whitmer said that the church had fallen into error as of 1838.

The church didn’t teach you any of those things, did it?
 
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