Whose Witnesses are Better?

[TikiTokiguy]

I just finished the Fawn Brodie book. How many LDS teach what I just read in that book? In my two plus years in the church I’ve not heard much about it. Someone told me I will or could have more than one wife in the next life. So I went down to the church saying goodbye to one of the missionaries and I asked - is this true, will I have more than one wife? Two guys said they never heard that before and don’t know. However, one of them, a dear friend, was trying to convince me to stay in the church and brought up that there are/will be lots of single women in the next life and they all will be needing good men, so I need to stay in the church.

Also, some non-LDS person asked me about African American not being allowed to hold the Priesthood. I asked some one in the church about this and the story of them not being brave in the pre-life and being cursed. I was told that was never official policy, it was just the opinion of one or two people in the church, but never official policy.

 

[MelanieAnne]

I just finished the Fawn Brodie book. How many LDS teach what I just read in that book? In my two plus years in the church I’ve not heard much about it. Someone told me I will or could have more than one wife in the next life. So I went down to the church saying goodbye to one of the missionaries and I asked - is this true, will I have more than one wife? Two guys said they never heard that before and don’t know. However, one of them, a dear friend, was trying to convince me to stay in the church and brought up that there are/will be lots of single women in the next life and they all will be needing good men, so I need to stay in the church.

Also, some non-LDS person asked me about African American not being allowed to hold the Priesthood. I asked some one in the church about this and the story of them not being brave in the pre-life and being cursed. I was told that was never official policy, it was just the opinion of one or two people in the church, but never official policy.

Tiki, I feel such empathy for you. I know that this change has been hard. It is especially difficult when you have an emotional connection to someone that you think you may be leaving behind.

Instead, I ask you to consider that you may be a lifeline to that person. Everything happens for a reason, and you may have come into that person’s life in order to draw them away from heresy. At this point in time you cannot begin to determine the effect you may have had. It could be huge. It may take 20 or 30 years, even more, to see the difference, but there could be a difference. Don’t be impatient to see results. Everything happens at the “right time”.

We not only need to praise God for the fact that you have “come home” we also need to pray that those that you have touched along your way may also see the “light”. The “light” that is Jesus.

 

[TikiTokiguy]

We not only need to praise God for the fact that you have “come home” we also need to pray that those that you have touched along your way may also see the “light”. The “light” that is Jesus.

Thanks. Anybody read rough stone rolling and the Fawn Brodie book? What the difference?
That Brodie book is really good.

 

[campeador]

If you say so, SirThomas.All of these witnesses never denied their testimony even on their deathbeds.

My dear friend, why me. As I pointed out to you here—forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=6667067&postcount=56, many people deny the truth even on their deathbeds. It seems a peculiarly Mormon phenomenon.

Here is the quote again (from wiki, emphasis mine):

Newell and Avery, in their biography, Mormon Enigma, make the claim that Emma witnessed several marriages of Joseph Smith, Jr. to plural wives. However, throughout her lifetime Emma publicly denied knowledge of her husband’s involvement in the practice of polygamy and denied on her deathbed that the practice had ever occurred. Emma stated,
“No such thing as polygamy, or spiritual wifery, was taught, publicly or privately, before my husband’s death, that I have now, or ever had any knowledge of…He had no other wife but me; nor did he to my knowledge ever have."

SirThomas, please continue to to tell the truth.

 

[TikiTokiguy]

Tiki, I feel such empathy for you. I know that this change has been hard. It is especially difficult when you have an emotional connection to someone that you think you may be leaving behind.

Actually I have no close friends in the church. That’s one of the problems. I was so faithful and always helped the missionaries, volunteered, even taught the Gospel Principles class six or so times for over two years and did not make any friends. Actually I felt frozen out on Sundays when I was there.

 

[why_me]

I just finished the Fawn Brodie book. How many LDS teach what I just read in that book? .

I don’t know. Maybe I can find a critical book about catholicism and ask a priest to teach from that book because many catholics haven’t heard of the information in that book.

I often amazed.

Brodie gave her interpretations based on her own assumptions. She was an historian. She also wrote biographies of Jefferson and Nixon. Should all historians consider those books the definitive biographies of those presidents. No. In fact, those books are consigned to oblivion. And the JS book would be too if it weren’t for critics of mormonism constantly bringing it up. It is just a book about a man who she was critical about. Nothing more. It did not make a dent in church membership when it came out because it was responded to and debunked. Now she does claim that spaulding was not the author of the book of mormon…do you agree?

 

[TikiTokiguy]

I don’t know. Maybe I can find a critical book about catholicism and ask a priest to teach from that book because many catholics haven’t heard of the information in that book.

I often amazed.

Brodie gave her interpretations based on her own assumptions. She was an historian. She also wrote biographies of Jefferson and Nixon. Should all historians consider those books the definitive biographies of those presidents. No. In fact, those books are consigned to oblivion. And the JS book would be too if it weren’t for critics of mormonism constantly bringing it up. It is just a book about a man who she was critical about. Nothing more. It did not make a dent in church membership when it came out because it was responded to and debuncked. Now she does claim that spaulding was not the author of the book of mormon…do you agree?

She was not critical of Smith. She just showed his true self. She showed his good and bad sides. She exposed the real man, not the made up prophet.

 

[why_me]

You also need to consider the facts that Oliver Cowdery had at least two warrants for his arrest for theft, that Martin Harris changed religions more often than I change clothes, and that David Whitmer said that the church had fallen into error as of 1838.

The church didn’t teach you any of those things, did it?

Oliver came back and bore his testimony of the book of mormon to the saints that were gathered to hear him and then on his deathbed infront of wife, daughter and friends. Sorry…better luck next time. All witnesses to the book of mormon were racked over the coals. It was a part of their existence. Oliver’s reputation was intact when he came back to the lds.

His dying breaths were spent testifying of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. Lucy P. Young, his half-sister, was at his bedside and reported:
“Oliver Cowdery just before breathing his last, asked his attendants to raise him up in bed that he might talk to the family and his friends, who were present. He then told them to live according to the teachings contained in the Book of Mormon, and promised them, if they would do this, that they would meet him in heaven. He then said, ‘Lay me down and let me fall asleep.’ A few moments later he died without a struggle.”8
Whereas there is no reliable evidence that Oliver denied his testimony, there is abundant evidence that he maintained the truth of his testimony and the veracity of the Book of Mormon throughout the remainder of his life.

fairlds.org/FAIR_Brochures/Book_of_Mormon_Witnesses_2.pdf

Ummm…he certainly sounds like a cheat to me…

 

[why_me]

She was not critical of Smith. She just showed his true self. She showed his good and bad sides. She exposed the real man, not the made up prophet.

If you say so. And I assume that she exposed the real Jefferson and Nixon too. It is amazing that there has been many biographies of those two men after her books was published if she were such a good historian and biographer. I thought that she would have closed the lives of those two american presidents.

 

[why_me]

My dear friend, why me. As I pointed out to you here—forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=6667067&postcount=56, many people deny the truth even on their deathbeds. It seems a peculiarly Mormon phenomenon.

SirThomas, please continue to to tell the truth.

If you say so. But in this case, there were quite many who gave deathbed testimony. Now that would be sad, if all were conartists. But…it doesn’t seem likely. It actually makes no difference at all. The witnesses gave their deathbed testimonies as they met their maker…and faced god. End of story.

 

[KathleenGee]

Why me…no offense, but you understand more of Mormonism than your own faith?

I think you are right to defend the integrity of the good will of Mormons. But you seem to come on here only to defend Mormonism with alot of background…do you defend Catholicism to Mormons?

There was one fellow here who came across as a Catholic, but then in the end, he pulled the rug out and was not really here to defend Catholicism, but use it in a way of some sorts to help him lean towards Mormonism.

 

[why_me]

and there was Solomon Spaldings manuscript mangled into the Book of Mormon. It must have been an amazing experience.

And very time consuming for all involved. It is amazing just how time was found to do it all. Not to mention the time it took to connect with one another during that time. And how that manuscript must have traveled from hand to hand…

 

[why_me]

Why me…no offense, but you understand more of Mormonism than your own faith?

I think you are right to defend the integrity of the good will of Mormons. But you seem to come on here only to defend Mormonism with alot of background…do you defend Catholicism to Mormons?

.

I haven’t seen mormons attacking the catholic church on this forum. But then again, I am basically only on this section where certain catholics use amaturish tactics to be critical of the mormon church. It is easy to defend the lds church when this is the case.

And if you notice the mormons are here less and less not because of the arguments but they have realized that no matter what they say, it makes no impact at all in the mentality of the antimormon catholics.

I do have a lot of background in defending the lds church but I am not a major player in mormon apologetics. I was usually on MAD defending the lds church but then I saw this site hoping to post with kind, considerate, charitiable catholics about catholicism but…I found the antimormon catholics making claims that weren’t kosher in my opinion. And so, here I am sparing with them.

 

[SirThomasMore]

If you say so. But in this case, there were quite many who gave deathbed testimony.

Yes, but Joe said they were liars and could not be trusted…so their testimonmy means NOTHING…unless, of course, Joe was lying about them, in which case Joe was a liar and could not be trusted. Wow…that sorta destroys all of them, huh?

Now that would be sad, if all were conartists.

Yes, it IS sad, because they were all co-conspirators

But…it doesn’t seem likely.

Actually, it is FACT

It actually makes no difference at all. The witnesses gave their deathbed testimonies as they met their maker…and faced god.

Excellent. you used the little “g”. I agree…they faced their god. And someday, for thioer cons and lies, they will have to face GOD.

End of story.

Not for them. I am afraid their suffering has just begun

 

[SirThomasMore]

I haven’t seen mormons attacking the catholic church on this forum. But then again, I am basically only on this section where certain catholics use amaturish tactics to be critical of the mormon church. It is easy to defend the lds church when this is the case.

And if you notice the mormons are here less and less not because of the arguments but they have realized that no matter what they say, it makes no impact at all in the mentality of the antimormon catholics.

I do have a lot of background in defending the lds church but I am not a major player in mormon apologetics. I was usually on MAD defending the lds church but then I saw this site hoping to post with kind, considerate, charitiable catholics about catholicism but…I found the antimormon catholics making claims that weren’t kosher in my opinion. And so, here I am sparing with them.

Anyone who defends the false prophet Joe and his false church is in opposition to the Catholic Church.

 

[why_me]

Anyone who defends the false prophet Joe and his false church is in opposition to the Catholic Church.

As I have said, sirthomas, if you ever become deacon please don’t forget to speak these words from the pulpit during a homily or speech. You may want to include Muhammed too. That should get the town folk all riled up. But do not come out in public for awhile if word spreads to the muslim community.

Charity is the key…in all things.

 

[LongJourney]

If you say so. And I assume that she exposed the real Jefferson and Nixon too. It is amazing that there has been many biographies of those two men after her books was published if she were such a good historian and biographer. I thought that she would have closed the lives of those two american presidents.

Perhaps if you read this, amazon.com/Thomas-Jefferson-Sally-Hemings-Controversy/dp/0813918332 you will realize how badly Brodie dropped the ball on Jefferson. His relationship with Sally was somewhat weird, but it was still a loving relationship.

But, of course, Brodie was writing from her cultural heritage, so anyone would expect that from her. Brigham would have said something else when confronted with the truth.

 

[KathleenGee]

Why me,

Thanks for responding…I think the agitation comes about with the witnessing of Mormonism that is so much out of the mainstream, even more than the SDA’s and JW’s. They have such a different story and it is such a disconnect even from Salvation History, as well as the history of peoples.

The background of Joseph Smith…I saw a photo of him and he looked to me as immature and … a seducer…I say that as a woman. He wanted to join the Methodist church after he had his revelations…if they were that true, then why would God then lead him away from it and want to join another church.

There are so many incongruities.

The Mormons are not facing their own issues of their beliefs’ foundation which is that there were no Christians really until them. How does that make devout believers feel??

I relunctantly came to a Mormon thread. I began to open up, stated I really liked the people, but explained what had happened to me when I wanted to learn more about Mormonism from their point of view and came to this book in their store, opened it up, and read terrible remarks about the Roman Church and its Protestant daughters. I was really put off by the Mormon’s hit on me…I thought the book was this particular title as the Mormon friend I had seemed to appear to have a different understanding of the pearl of great price…and the whole issue was totally mixed up. I am not computer savvy, saw all this reaction to each phrase of my posts and missed some points. I hadn’t been on forums much.

But the bottom line was that there were still books out there in their stores selling such materials.

They call themselves saints while we are not Christians. Oh, there may be a few…well, you cannot separate believers from their creeds and practices. So there are alot of other Christians out there as well. I look at the history of our faith and how so many people died for their faith in the history of Catholicism and Christianity in general, people who laid down their life for Jesus, including the young children.

 

[KathleenGee]

I also came across a thought in Mormonism that it is not right in their practical teachings to honestly question or do critical thinking regarding their own beliefs and background…

Correct me here…but that is what I picked up as well with my Mormon friends.

 

[SirThomasMore]

As I have said, sirthomas, if you ever become deacon please don’t forget to speak these words from the pulpit during a homily or speech.

If the topic ever comes up when I am a deacon I will gladly say it. And the reason I will say it is because THAT IS WHAT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH TEACHES. Did you know that if you want to become Catholic and were previously baptized in a Baptist, Lutheran, Methodist Church, you do not have to get baptized again, but if you were baptized in the LDS Church, you MUST be baptized because the Catholic Church does not recognize an LDS baptism? So, yes, I will continue to proclaim Catholic teaching

You may want to include Muhammed too. That should get the town folk all riled up. But do not come out in public for awhile if word spreads to the muslim community.

I am not afraid of speaking the truth and standing up for the truth. I am sorry that you seem to be

Charity is the key…in all things.

You still misuse the word charity. Charity does NOT mean hiding from the truth and accepting false prophets. TRUTH is the key.