Whose Witnesses are Better?

[SirThomasMore]

I also came across a thought in Mormonism that it is not right in their practical teachings to honestly question or do critical thinking regarding their own beliefs and background…

Correct me here…but that is what I picked up as well with my Mormon friends.

that is true. When I first began to question the LDS teachings, I asked my bishop and a few other leaders. I was told to NOT ask questions, to just follow the prophet

 

[KathleenGee]

I had the impression that to question or do critical thinking against their beliefs was taboo.

We can challenge our own beliefs, even with our priests. They even like that.

 

[TikiTokiguy]

I had the impression that to question or do critical thinking against their beliefs was taboo.

We can challenge our own beliefs, even with our priests. They even like that.

One homily I heard dealt with a few troubles facing the Catholic church. The Priest said - yeah, look at the history of the church. Yes, you will find bad things. Go ahead and look. You will find bad things, even worse things. But you will also find good things and the good things will far outweigh the bad. I respected that.

I guess if the LDS church was more honest about it’s history I wouldn’t have a problem with it. Why not admit Smith was 99% man who satisfied his own lust? Why not come out against that? Why not say - Smith was wrong on the polygamy part? I’ll tell you why - Young gained control and he had a taste of polygamy and liked it. The was no way was he going to give that up. Reading the Brodie book it sounds like Young was a very ambitions man too who had his eye on running the church even before Smith died.

 

[KathleenGee]

For Catholics to point out through critical thinking, it may look to a Mormon that we are being uncharitable.

We see the construct of Mormonism as uncharitable and biased. It condemns Christianity.

Jesus Christ did not come to condemn us. We will condemn ourselves at judgment day. We will see where our actions our entire life took us and take the next step – the final plunge away from Him.

The times I have pointed out what I disagreed with, it was not a matter of being charitable or not. Charity is the litmus test of my own soul. What people are reacting to is like coming to different answers, and then you come to one, and it is like a tv game show…‘Beep’…wrong! That is the reaction we are having. Not the intent to being uncharitable.

Critical thinking is a method used to arrive at the truth. It is about truth and truthful, cohesive, and consistent witness.

 

[KathleenGee]

Individual Catholics – that includes the papacy, ecclesiastics, religious orders, laity – no one person, because they are Catholic, are holy in themselves. We are all equal before God and we will be held accountable to God as individuals in how we either chose the Lord or wrongdoing. We are on the same plan of God’s judgment as any other person on the planet.

The Church reveals the fullness of Who God is. The Church nurtures us in our growth in Christ. The Church provides the greatest grace to help us achieve heaven. Other people go to heaven but with not all the help we get.

Vatican II: Of all the different types of people in Vatican II, those held in greatest judgment will be Catholics who were given all the teachings of the Church, but refused charity. For these, they will not go to heaven, and furthermore, will be judged more severely.

 

[SirThomasMore]

And very time consuming for all involved. It is amazing just how time was found to do it all. Not to mention the time it took to connect with one another during that time. And how that manuscript must have traveled from hand to hand…

Not really. They had at least 4 years

 

[why_me]

Not really. They had at least 4 years

Without leaving a trace of a partnership is really amazing. Usually people engaged in conspiracies leave a trace but not in this case. Even the 11 witnesses never retracted and many of these guys were married. Women can usually get their husbands to fess up. But…not in this case. And no hint of duplicity either. Amazing.

 

[SirThomasMore]

Without leaving a trace of a partnership is really amazing. Usually people engaged in conspiracies leave a trace but not in this case. Even the 11 witnesses never retracted and many of these guys were married. Women can usually get their husbands to fess up. But…not in this case. And no hint of duplicity either. Amazing.

lol…there was only three of them in a time where people were not as aware as they are now due to no phones, etc. So it is not so amazing. And the whole thing is hint a duplicity. Of course, they were all liars according to each other…

 

[zaffiroborant]

. But you seem to come on here only to defend Mormonism with alot of background…do you defend Catholicism to Mormons?

There was one fellow here who came across as a Catholic, but then in the end, he pulled the rug out and was not really here to defend Catholicism, but use it in a way of some sorts to help him lean towards Mormonism.

No he does not, even people on LDS boards have asked him this and his answer is the same, no he sees no need to defend Catholicism.

 

[KathleenGee]

Why me…may be you should study various philosophical methods used to arrive to the truth, or study how criminologists determine whether or not someone is telling the truth or not, as you do not believe us and the ways various Catholics arrive at the truth.

 

[KathleenGee]

May be that would be good post for someone to start.

What disciplines does the Church use outside of the work of the Holy Spirit in determining truth from falsehood?..

The construct of Catholicism is really based on faith…do you believe Jesus lived, died and rose from the dead for the salvation of men?..

This is all that is necessary to be a follower of Christ…no use of logic…no critical analysis…yet we have different prophets with different messages since the time of Christ…

Why me…why you…

 

[SirThomasMore]

QUOTE=KathleenGee;6783237]May be that would be good post for someone to start.

What disciplines does the Church use outside of the work of the Holy Spirit in determining truth from falsehood?..

Good point

The construct of Catholicism is really based on faith…do you believe Jesus lived, died and rose from the dead for the salvation of men?..

but it must be the TRUE and Biblical Jesus

This is all that is necessary to be a follower of Christ…no use of logic…no critical analysis…yet we have different prophets with different messages since the time of Christ…

Again, it must be the true and Biblical Jesus

Why me…why you…

 

[SirThomasMore]

I did not really need to respond to you. I finally figured out how to do the quote boxes to respond to and was practicing…

 

[campeador]

But in this case, there were quite many who gave deathbed testimony. Now that would be sad…

Yes, my dear friend. it is as sad as Emma trying to convince herself and everyone else on her deathbed that her husband had never been a polygamist, knowing full well the truth.

 

[MelanieAnne]

Yes, my dear friend. it is as sad as Emma trying to convince herself and everyone else on her deathbed that her husband had never been a polygamist, knowing full well the truth.

Indeed. And look at the result of the polygamy practiced at the beginning of Mormonsim. Even today there are hundreds, if not thousands, of children living in this sort of disordered world ~ the world of polygamy ~ throughout the SouthWest because of the actions of people like Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. These people may not be claimed by the current Mormon church, but they all trace their roots back to Joseph Smith.

Emma seems to be a rather tragic figure in all of this, first having to put up with her husband’s infidelity, then, after he was gone, having to convince herself it wasn’t true. What a tortured existence.

 

[SirThomasMore]

Indeed. And look at the result of the polygamy practiced at the beginning of Mormonsim. Even today there are hundreds, if not thousands, of children living in this sort of disordered world ~ the world of polygamy ~ throughout the SouthWest because of the actions of people like Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. These people may not be claimed by the current Mormon church, but they all trace their roots back to Joseph Smith.

Emma seems to be a rather tragic figure in all of this, first having to put up with her husband’s infidelity, then, after he was gone, having to convince herself it wasn’t true. What a tortured existence.

then, after all of that, she had to put up with BY, who was cruel to her.

You would think the Mormons would have listened to her about what her husband’s wishes were, but BY saw it as an opportunity to gain control and have people to build HIM houses

 

[twopekinguys]

I keep hearing…“None of the witnesses ever denied their testimony”…over and over and over and over.

In that day and age, “denying” their testimony, the BoM, or any of that would be the same as admitting they were part of the fraud and cover up.

It would be very easy for them to distance themselves from JS, by saying he was perverting everything, but yet still maintain the cover up and fraud.

It is amazing what money and power can do to and for people.

 

[TikiTokiguy]

then, after all of that, she had to put up with BY, who was cruel to her.

You would think if they truly believed Smith was a prophet they would have treated Emma with high respect even after Jo died. From the Brodie book I get the feeling Young was just as ambitious as some of the other men around Smith. He knew what he was doing - he wanted control of the church.

 

[why_me]

No he does not, even people on LDS boards have asked him this and his answer is the same, no he sees no need to defend Catholicism.

Now Zaff, lets be honest here. You know me from MD board. They all know about my catholicism. You have read yourself. But on that board, I see no anticatholicism and so, why should I defend the catholic church? Mormons are quite tolerant of catholics on their boards or as is the case as on MD. Now be honest, zaff. You read it yourself on that board. In Polygamy Porter even stated I am involved more with catholic service than lds service and you read that too.

 

[why_me]

I keep hearing…“None of the witnesses ever denied their testimony”…over and over and over and over.

In that day and age, “denying” their testimony, the BoM, or any of that would be the same as admitting they were part of the fraud and cover up.
.

They were on their deathbed giving their testimonies to their families. Get it? There is such denial here that it is almost impossible to overcome it. They had no fear of being discovered. They were with their families and friends.