Why a Life of Penance? Why do People Do It?

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St John of the Cross on Detachment

This would explain why having very little possessions would make one more spiritually in tune so to speak.

However, is there a difference between detachment and penance?
They are definitely related, but not synonomous. However, in your OP, you asked:
How does living a life with sparse furnishings, no TV, bland food, very few possessions, wool shirts affect you. Does it bring you closer to God? Is there a direct correlation between denying oneself and increased spirituality?
While you asked about penitential living, the examples you gave were closer to self-denial and the spirit of detachment. That is why I responded as I did.
 
They are definitely related, but not synonomous. However, in your OP, you asked:

While you asked about penitential living, the examples you gave were closer to self-denial and the spirit of detachment. That is why I responded as I did.
Maybe I’m confusing the two What would be some examples of a penitential life?
 
Do you feel it would make your prayer more effective?
Effective to me, yes. I feel the pain in my soul and heart when I am there. I know that babies are dying as I stand there, and I am totally helpless to stop it. I wish to take the pain of the babies upon myself and actually, the mere mortification of my flesh through whipping would never approximate their suffering. I know the Lord removes them and I pray He takes them straight to Heaven to rest in his arms.

But as far as creating a scandal for the Church, I am 100% certain that if the news media were contacted that there is a woman whipping herself in front of Planned Parenthood, that would not reflect well on Catholics! I would be seen as in desperate need of mental help, and the Church would be seen as encouraging self-abuse. Only deeply faithful people can understand any form of self-mortification, and the individuals who are called to this must discern very carefully their motives for doing it.
 
The Christian God does seem to have a massive preoccupation with suffering and a hatred for people trying to avoid it. You will see many discussions on sufferings and praise for people that underwent massive penance on here.
This is an interesting way to see it. I hope that the rest of the thread will help you understand our faith a bit better. God bless.
 
This is hilarious :rotfl: You have over 2,000 posts and still have not learned anything about the Catholic faith? I hope that the rest of the thread will help. God bless.
This is what I keep getting told. I remember listening to a podcast on the joy of being Catholic. It was an hour and twenty minutes on suffering, being tortured, starving yourself ect.

Then I read one on feasting in the Christian tradition. It was almost totally devoted to self denial, fasting to the point of starvation ect. I contact the printer they assured me feasting was NOT a typo.
 
As I understand, desiring to do penance is a gift. Some people are called to to it to a greater degree and that indeed takes them closer to God. Penance can be done for the reparation of one’s own sin, or for others. (For example, the children in Fatima did penance by not easing discomfort and sometimes even seeking it. ) At the same time one should not do it out of self-hatred and desire self-destruction. Penance is done out of love for God and so wanting to suffer with Him it brings us closer to Him.

Personally, I’m the sort of person who likes to avoid pain and discomfort if possible, but lately I’ve been feeling the nudge to introduce a bit of penance in my life. So for example, I had a nasty headache recently and instead of immediately taking painkillers, I offered that pain up for the reparation of my sin. I did not seek that suffering but I accepted it and directed it towards a specific goal and with a certain frame of mind.
 
This is what I keep getting told. I remember listening to a podcast on the joy of being Catholic. It was an hour and twenty minutes on suffering, being tortured, starving yourself ect.

Then I read one on feasting in the Christian tradition. It was almost totally devoted to self denial, fasting to the point of starvation ect. I contact the printer they assured me feasting was NOT a typo.
I know. This is a tough one to understand. It is crucial to have a correct understanding of God and what His love is, in order to understand why some people want to suffer with Him. Suffering and pain is not the greatest evil in the world if it is directed to a greater goal, unlike what the secular ideologies tell us (and I suspect a lot of new age stuff). The fact is that there is suffering in the world whether we like it or not, and the question is what we are going to do with it. We can just go on and suffer, or we can go on and suffer and unite that pain with Christ’s. That is the crucial thing. We call it redemptive suffering. It is directed to something good. Penance is close to that because some people feel the need to suffer for God because they love Him. It is a mystery and a gift. I don’t really feel this need but sense the greatness of that nevertheless.

I’m sorry I made fun of you. I shouldn’t have. I tried to edit my post 😊
This really is extremely difficult to accept and to understand.
 
This is what I keep getting told. I remember listening to a podcast on the joy of being Catholic. It was an hour and twenty minutes on suffering, being tortured, starving yourself ect.

Then I read one on feasting in the Christian tradition. It was almost totally devoted to self denial, fasting to the point of starvation ect. I contact the printer they assured me feasting was NOT a typo.
Christianity is full of paradoxes. God Himself gets killed by His creatures? Come on!
The first shall be last and the last shall be first? No way!
Fasting and self-denial are a source of joy? Come again?

You see, the point to all these paradoxes is that Christians see a higher good that is to be obtained, but often we have to brush the immediate pleasures out of the way. It doesn’t mean that our bodies are bad, but rather that we must train our minds and bodies just as someone training for a marathon has to go through some demanding rituals. I get that you don’t get it, but I’m just saying that you shouldn’t be put off by a concept just because it seems to be contradictory to the logic of this world.
 
Effective to me, yes. I feel the pain in my soul and heart when I am there. I know that babies are dying as I stand there, and I am totally helpless to stop it. I wish to take the pain of the babies upon myself and actually, the mere mortification of my flesh through whipping would never approximate their suffering. I know the Lord removes them and I pray He takes them straight to Heaven to rest in his arms.

But as far as creating a scandal for the Church, I am 100% certain that if the news media were contacted that there is a woman whipping herself in front of Planned Parenthood, that would not reflect well on Catholics! I would be seen as in desperate need of mental help, and the Church would be seen as encouraging self-abuse. Only deeply faithful people can understand any form of self-mortification, and the individuals who are called to this must discern very carefully their motives for doing it.
You’ve used the example of whipping a couple of times. Would that be classified under penance or mortification?
 
So for example, I had a nasty headache recently and instead of immediately taking painkillers, I offered that pain up for the reparation of my sin. I did not seek that suffering but I accepted it and directed it towards a specific goal and with a certain frame of mind.
So out of curiosity, how exactly did you offer it up? Did you just say a quick prayer? How did redirecting it help your prayer?
 
I was reading on another thread about how someone wanted advice on how to live a life of penance.

How does living a life of penance affect your spiritual life. Does anyone here live that type of life? I’m not speaking about meatless Fridays.

I’m not really asking about Religious either, although it would be nice to hear why they chose religious life as well.

I’m more speaking of regular folks who choose to live a pentential life.

How does living a life with sparse furnishings, no TV, bland food, very few possessions, wool shirts affect you. Does it bring you closer to God? Is there a direct correlation between denying oneself and increased spirituality?

Should that be the goal of every Chris

Are there particular Saints who lived this type of life?

Thanks.
Hi, TL…is this what you are seeking…

The unitive way
The unitive way is the way of those who are in the state of the perfect, that is, those who have their minds so drawn away from all temporal things that they enjoy great peace, who are neither agitated by various desires nor moved by any great extent by passion, and who have their minds chiefly fixed on God and their attention turned, either always or very frequently, to Him. It is the union with God by love and the actual experience and exercise of that love. It is called the state of “perfect charity”, because souls who have reached that state are ever prompt in the exercise of charity by loving God habitually and by frequent and efficacious acts of that Divine virtue. It is called the “unitive” way because it is by love that the soul is united to God, and the more perfect the charity, the closer and more intimate is the union. Union with God is the principal study and endeavor of this state. It is of this union St. Paul speaks when he says: “He who is joined to the Lord, is one spirit.” (1 Corinthians 6:17). Souls thus united to God are penetrated by the highest motives of the theological and moral virtues. In every circumstance of their lives the supernatural motive which ought to guide their actions is ever present to their mind, and the actions are performed under its inspiration with a force of will which makes their accomplishment easy and even delightful. These perfect souls are above all familiar with the doctrine and use of consolations and desolations. They are enlightened in the mysteries of the supernatural life, and they have experience of that truth proclaimed by St. Paul when he said: “We know that to them that love God, all things work together unto good, to such as, according to His purpose, are called to be saints.” (Romans 8:28). The form of prayer suitable to persons in the unitive way is the contemplation of the glorious mysteries of Our Lord, His Resurrection, Appearances, and Ascension, until the coming of the Holy Ghost, and the preaching of the Gospel. These mysteries may also be the subject of meditation for beginners and for those in a state of progress, but in a peculiar manner, they belong to the perfect. Union with God belongs substantially to all souls in a state of grace, but it is in a special manner the distinguishing characteristic of those in the unitive way or in the state of the perfect.

It is in this state that the gift of contemplation is imparted to the soul, though this is not always the case; because many souls who are perfect in the unitive way never receive in this life the gift of contemplation and there have been numerous saints who were not mystics or contemplatives and who nevertheless excelled in the practice of heroic virtue. Souls, however, who have attained to the unitive state have consolations of a purer and higher order than others, and are more often favored by extraordinary graces; and sometimes with the extraordinary phenomena of the mystical state such as ecstasies, raptures, and what is known as the prayer of union.

Source: newadvent.org/cathen/14254a.htm

This is quite hard to achieve…I think saints achieved this state…another saint you may want to read up on is St. Gemma Galgani.

stgemmagalgani.com/
 
To understand the life of penance, one has to understand the history of the Jewish People and how they foreshadow the Church.

After the fall of man, God sets out to rescue man. To do so, he discloses himself to humanity through Israel. We see in his relationship with Israel what is really his relationship with all of us. Man sins, God recalls him back. Man atones, God forgives. As we can see from the OT, atonement is not a set of isolated acts (ie. Fasting, abstinence, beating the body, etc). Atonement is much greater than that. Atonement is a way of living in relationship with God and neighbor.

Israel sins, but he acknowledges his sins before God and before his neighbor. He asks for forgiveness. He sets out to correct what he has hurt. This happens over and over again. So we see Israel become a people of penance, constantly acknowledging its faults before God and man and constantly trying to atone. Through the centuries the Mitzvahs are revealed to Israel. They are the means through which man makes atonement. They involve the practice of charity toward all, an intense life of prayer (communal and individual, liturgical and private), sacrifice offered out of love (not out of guilt), detachment from those things that stand between God and man, and a holy indifference. Israel engages in working out its salvation by strengthening its relationship with God, not by trying to fix the pagans around them. Through their example, many pagans are brought into relationship with God.

Jesus fulfills Israel’s dream of reconciliation with God, through his own life of sacrifice, love, charity, devotion, prayer, service, detachment, simplicity, and sacrifice. The ultimate sacrifice being the cross. The Church picks up the same theme of reconciliation with God and man. Through the masters of the Christian life she is able to systematize and put down on paper the methods of reconciliation, which would later become known as the Life of Penance to which we man has been called since the fall of Adam.

The life of penance can best be summed up through the conscious effort to live according to three sets of Mitzvahs:

The Commandments
The Beatitudes
The Corporal Works of Mercy

They are summed up in the Evangelical Virtues of Faith, Hope and Love and the three Evangelical Counsels of Obedience, Poverty and Chastity. The difference between the layman and the religious is not the call. All are called to live according to the three Mitzvahs that I’ve outlined above. They take their expression in the virtues and counsels. The difference is that the religious puts his or her soul on the line by vowing to get it right or forfeit his or her eternal salvation.

In order to live the Commandments, Beatitudes and practice the Corporal Works of mercy, one has to strip oneself of everything that gets in the way. One has to discipline oneself. This does not mean that we beat ourselves to a pulp with a discipline, that we fast until we starve, that we wear hair shirts and chains. Many people have done these things, because it helped them, not because it’s required. They are not always helpful. Sometimes, human beings are prideful. Our pride can lead us into the sin of excess. He want to be the best penitent. That is not helpful. Human beings can be hateful toward self and toward the body. That can lead to an abuse of self and body. That’s not helpful either. God does not invite us to hate anything that he created. Those persons who used these means and achieved holiness, achieved holiness because they used these means with great prudence and with the knowledge that they were neither the worse sinners or saints. The belief that one is the greatest sinner is often rooted in pride or in despair, two sides of the same coin to be avoided.

A life of penance has to be like that of Israel, which we see played out perfectly, without excess, in Jesus Christ. It is a life in which we constantly seek to atone for our sins through the perfection of charity. We take out of the way that which distracts us from our mission. That’s why the penitent is often materially poor. Material concerns can distract from charity toward God and neighbor. Without charity, there is no atonement. The penitent often disciplines the mind and body through corporal penances, such as fasting and abstinence. These are small sacrifices that he or she offers to God in atonement for sin. They help to keep him real. They help him to remember that he is sinful and God is merciful. He will often spend much time in prayer. Unless he cultivates the dialogue between the soul and God, the will never know the Will of God. Without that knowledge, how can he atone? Lectio Divina is the favorite form of private prayer of the penitent. The preferred public prayer of the penitent if the Eucharist and the Liturgy of the Hours. He prays for the Church and with the Churchy. He offers sacrifice with the Church united to Christ at Calvary. Finally, the penitent engages in great acts of charity, especially toward the poor. The poor hold first place in the heart and mind of God. The great spiritual masters, from the Jewish Patriarchs to Bl. John Paul II, all understood that God made a preferential option for the poor by becoming incarnate among them. He is born poor. The Son of Man has no place to lay his head. Christ calls us to give what we have to the poor and to follow him. He dies stripped of everything and is buried in a borrowed tomb.

All of these things together are pieces of the Life of Penance. This way of life has one goal in mind, to atone for our sins by embracing the human condition of Christ. There is the why of it all.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
So out of curiosity, how exactly did you offer it up? Did you just say a quick prayer? How did redirecting it help your prayer?
I just said something like, “Lord, I offer this pain to you and unite it with your pain on the cross”. I can’t remember the exact intention. You can offer it up for something he choses for example. I don’t think there is an immediate effect on prayer, but something that develops over time by changing you as a person at the same time.
 
Very interesting. I wonder if detachment includes detachment from people and if so, is that healthy?
From my personal experience, yes, it can mean people too.

As far as being “healthy”, I guess it all depends on how you look at it.
I have had to “detach” from some people who have been part of my life, my whole life,
but being around them was no longer a good thing for me, mentally or spiritually.

I won’t kid you, it was the hardest thing I have ever done, and I still do miss them sometimes, but…, it was also the best thing I could have done for ME & MY RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD
 
Hi Pablope,
Hi, TL…is this what you are seeking…

The unitive way
The unitive way is the way of those who are in the state of the perfect, that is, those who have their minds so drawn away from all temporal things that they enjoy great peace, who are neither agitated by various desires nor moved by any great extent by passion, and who have their minds chiefly fixed on God and their attention turned, either always or very frequently, to Him.
Is it possible to ever be in the state of the perfect?
In every circumstance of their lives the supernatural motive which ought to guide their actions is ever present to their mind, and the actions are performed under its inspiration with a force of will which makes their accomplishment easy and even delightful. These perfect souls are above all familiar with the doctrine and use of consolations and desolations. They are enlightened in the mysteries of the supernatural life, and they have experience of that truth proclaimed by St. Paul when he said: “We know that to them that love God, all things work together unto good, to such as, according to His purpose, are called to be saints.” (Romans 8:28).
It’s interesting. I memorized that verse since I was a little kid. But I interpreted as those who serve and love God. In other words, sinners like me. I never interpreted as people who are in some sort of super spiritual state. Is that how you see it?
It is in this state that the gift of contemplation is imparted to the soul, though this is not always the case; because many souls who are perfect in the unitive way never receive in this life the gift of contemplation and there have been numerous saints who were not mystics or contemplatives and who nevertheless excelled in the practice of heroic virtue. Souls, however, who have attained to the unitive state have consolations of a purer and higher order than others, and are more often favored by extraordinary graces; and sometimes with the extraordinary phenomena of the mystical state such as ecstasies, raptures, and what is known as the prayer of union.
I know this came from NewAdvent, but do you agree or not agree with it? How do you see it as relating to penance. Can penance bring people to such a state?
This is quite hard to achieve…I think saints achieved this state…another saint you may want to read up on is St. Gemma Galgani.
Okay. Thanks.
 
The life of penance can best be summed up through the conscious effort to live according to three sets of Mitzvahs:

The Commandments
The Beatitudes
The Corporal Works of Mercy
I had to look up corporal works of mercy. I didn’t know what that means. 😛
To feed the hungry;
To give drink to the thirsty;
To clothe the naked;
To harbour the harbourless;
To visit the sick;
To ransom the captive;
To bury the dead.
. The difference between the layman and the religious is not the call. All are called to live according to the three Mitzvahs that I’ve outlined above. They take their expression in the virtues and counsels. The difference is that the religious puts his or her soul on the line by vowing to get it right or forfeit his or her eternal salvation.
Hmm. I never looked at it that way.
In order to live the Commandments, Beatitudes and practice the Corporal Works of mercy, one has to strip oneself of everything that gets in the way. One has to discipline oneself.
So Br. JR, If I understand you correctly, there may be different distractions for different people. For some people money is a distraction and for some food is a distraction. One who lives a life of penance strips oneself of these distractions, spend time in prayer and live life according to the three mitzvahs. Basically, they try to live a life pleasing to God.
 
From my personal experience, yes, it can mean people too.

As far as being “healthy”, I guess it all depends on how you look at it.
I have had to “detach” from some people who have been part of my life, my whole life,
but being around them was no longer a good thing for me, mentally or spiritually.

I won’t kid you, it was the hardest thing I have ever done, and I still do miss them sometimes, but…, it was also the best thing I could have done for ME & MY RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD
Many times one does have to withdraw from relationships which are toxic or just not good for one’s spiritual life.

I was more referring to withdrawing from family and people in general.

I know this guy who used to be a monk. I don’t know what kind of monk. But I noticed that it is very hard for him to make eye contact or interact with people in general. I found out later that he used to live in a monastery.

I said to myself, “Oh that’s why” because I assumed that meant he had very little contact with outside people.

Now that I have been on this board and have chatted with religious, I don’t know if my perception was correct. But maybe he learned to detach himself from people. 🤷
 
STOP THE PRESSES

Physical asceticism is used to achieve a life of penance. They are not the penance. Penance is a way of conversion away from sin toward the perfection of charity.

Doing penance involves doing whatever it takes to love God and man. It requires discipline. That’s where fasting, abstinence and other corporal disciplines enter into the picture. We practice them to discipline ourselves. But we discipline ourselves in order to grow in charity. If charity is not the goal, then it’s not penance, it’s masochism.

Asceticism is holy only when it produces simple acts of great love for God and man, especially the most vulnerable members of society.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
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