Why a Life of Penance? Why do People Do It?

[Edward_H]

I am going to meditate on that word “unity” for the next few days. You are oh so right. When I offer up little things to our Good Lord, I always find that he returns the love I offer Him with so much more than I could ever have offered to Him. In the context of the word “unity” that makes so much sense…when we give our love to the Lord, we end up being “united” to Him, and thus receive His Pure Love channeled right back… what a gift!!!

Unity, yes…and this is Holiness! Exactly. And I wish I had been told this so many years ago.

And we need to forever be on guard so to speak to make sure that our intention in doing so is not for the return of love or joy, or any good feeling at all. :< :>

That’s a struggle…but our giving needs to be done hopefully…but done with such confidence and childlike abandonment that we don’t expect anything in return.

In her diary, Gabrielle Bossis (He and I) has this inspiration:

May 30 - Lyon. - “Is it love when my heart beats more quickly when I think of You?”

"Yes, it is love. But it’s also love when you make an effort to be good for My sake without the slightest pleasurable feeling.

 

[TrueLight]

Hmm. Did you run out of other ideas, forms of penance?

Bottom line…an act of penance needs to be an act of love, done for the love of God.

I would ask a priest about this?

I’m not asking for myself. The thought just popped into my head. I’m thinking of 1Corinthians 7.

5 Do not deprive each other except perhaps by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer.

 

[Edward_H]

I’m not asking for myself. The thought just popped into my head. I’m thinking of 1Corinthians 7.

Good point. I guess the word mutual is key.

 

[JReducation]

Can abstaining from sex from one’s spouse for a time be used as penance?

It is not unusual for spouses to practice continence. Some have done it for years. The Martins come to mind, St. Therese’s parents. They joined the Secular Franciscans and made vows of continence. Thomas More was also a Secular Franciscan and was continent, so was Elizabeth of Hungary. The custom here was granted by St. Francis to the members of the Secular Order. However, there were conditions. The couple had to have children. There could be no reason to cause suspisions of cheating. The Franciscan superior had to give permission. Permission was never given without the permission of the confessor, and spiritual director first.

Outside of that, couples may agree to live celibate lives for a short-term. To expect more than that, whithout the approval of the Church and mutual agreement, can lead to a violation of rights.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[simple_soul]

Can abstaining from sex from one’s spouse for a time be used as penance?

*From what I have heard recently it can be but you know, the first time I ever heard about spouses practicing continence or living celibate lives and it being a good thing I was taken back by it.
I personally had only ever heard of couples not sleeping with each other or not having sex, because they were either mad at each other, not in the mood, or having to abstain because of a medical condition.
I really could not imagine living under one roof with someone I loved very much and living a life of abstinence, unless there was a medical issue, and for some reason the idea of depriving my spouse for any reason always made me believed I would be violating his rights some how.

Because I believe I would be violating his rights somehow I do not know that I could ever even ask him. I will have to give this one some more thought. *

 

[rainbow1]

Unity, yes…and this is Holiness! Exactly. And I wish I had been told this so many years ago.

And we need to forever be on guard so to speak to make sure that our intention in doing so is not for the return of love or joy, or any good feeling at all. :< :>

That’s a struggle…but our giving needs to be done hopefully…but done with such confidence and childlike abandonment that we don’t expect anything in return.

In her diary, Gabrielle Bossis (He and I) has this inspiration:

May 30 - Lyon. - “Is it love when my heart beats more quickly when I think of You?”

"Yes, it is love. But it’s also love when you make an effort to be good for My sake without the slightest pleasurable feeling.

Thanks for your reference to Gabrielle Bossis…started reading online some of her life last night after reading your comments, and her discussions with our Lord are very touching…
definitely going to buy He and I! Can’t wait!

 

[rainbow1]

*From what I have heard recently it can be but you know, the first time I ever heard about spouses practicing continence or living celibate lives and it being a good thing I was taken back by it.
I personally had only ever heard of couples not sleeping with each other or not having sex, because they were either mad at each other, not in the mood, or having to abstain because of a medical condition.
I really could not imagine living under one roof with someone I loved very much and living a life of abstinence, unless there was a medical issue, and for some reason the idea of depriving my spouse for any reason always made me believed I would be violating his rights some how.

Because I believe I would be violating his rights somehow I do not know that I could ever even ask him. I will have to give this one some more thought. *

That is a very delicate issue and definitely dependent on the individual couple. I do think for some couples it could be a time for not only offering penance, but also a time to grow closer in a different way…

 

[Edward_H]

Thanks for your reference to Gabrielle Bossis…started reading online some of her life last night after reading your comments, and her discussions with our Lord are very touching…
definitely going to buy He and I! Can’t wait!

Great. A wise and generous priest suggested I read it. Has really helped my mental prayer life. There is a new edition with a preface written by someone modern…and there’s some errant reference in the preface to some sort of unisex Godhead or some such thing.

But ignore the preface and read the original diary entries.

I read the book all the way through a year or ago again and restarted. I tried to only read a page or so at a time. It’s hard to push through more than that at a sitting.

"You hear those little goldfinches chatting in undertones without ever stopping? - Bird voices. Talk to Me like that, ceaselessly, sotto voce. "

 

[simple_soul]

That is a very delicate issue and definitely dependent on the individual couple. I do think for some couples it could be a time for not only offering penance, but also a time to grow closer in a different way…

*I believe I understand what you are saying and I believe you are totally right about it being delicate and dependent on the individual couple…not that long ago some one told me that you can’t give what you don’t have…and it made me stop and think then they went on to explain how it is much harder to receive love than give it…it made a lot of sense to me so right know I am trying to focus on just accepting my husbands love as well as giving him my love…and I am finding a lot of peace, love and joy in doing it. But I believe I am mostly just at peace with it. *

 

[simple_soul]

*Dear Br. Jay,

I have been dwelling on what you said in post # 117, and all I can say is I believe I might be able to finally see! And you and sister are so right!…. Again!….

The way I see it is, and as always please correct me if I am wrong or not seeing something clearly, if we are going to be followers of Jesus Christ we have to open ourselves to Him in His entirety.
If we are going to accept suffering for the sake of His suffering. If we are going to accept love for the sake of His Love and if we are going to accept mercy for the sake of His Mercy then we also need to accept peace for the sake of His Peace. Compassion for the sake of His Compassion and joy for the sake of His Joy. It really is not about just the suffering in His life that we are united to Him in. We also need to accept and follow Him also in His Compassion, Joy and Peace so that we become united to Him in those also. Only when we accept Him and embrace Him in His entirety and give Him ourselves in our entirety will be able to say as St. Paul says, It is no longer I but Jesus Christ who resides in me.” I believe that we become so focused on embracing our suffering and following Jesus in our suffering that we forget to also embrace our fears, love, joys, mercy, and compassion. When I stop and really think about it, our love, joys, sufferings, fears, etc, etc….are really gifts from Himself that He gives to us from Himself. Sometime directly and sometimes through others. Like sister said, “you can not give what you do not have!”

As always I do hope and pray this makes some sense.

With my love and prayers,
*

 

[simple_soul]

*It is like we have to fully accept our humanity and our divinity. Both of which, from my understanding, are really a gift from Himself and of Himself to us.
We either work against Him and corrupt this gift of Himself to us or we work with Him so that He can perfect it. *

 

[rainbow1]

*It is like we have to fully accept our humanity and our divinity. Both of which, from my understanding, are really a gift from Himself and of Himself to us.
We either work against Him and corrupt this gift of Himself to us or we work with Him so that He can perfect it. *

What I am hearing you say is that by opening ourselves to God, we allow Him to turn us into the creation He has in mind…
The image coming to mind , from reading earlier posts, is that we can open all the “doors” to all the rooms in our “house”, and let God take care of them all…even the rooms we have a hard time inviting Him into……and that goes back to “unity” …I think it is truly a form of penance in itself to share the messes with Him as openly as the tidier stuff…

 

[rainbow1]

Great. A wise and generous priest suggested I read it. Has really helped my mental prayer life. There is a new edition with a preface written by someone modern…and there’s some errant reference in the preface to some sort of unisex Godhead or some such thing.

But ignore the preface and read the original diary entries.

I read the book all the way through a year or ago again and restarted. I tried to only read a page or so at a time. It’s hard to push through more than that at a sitting.

"You hear those little goldfinches chatting in undertones without ever stopping? - Bird voices. Talk to Me like that, ceaselessly, sotto voce. "

Saw a quote on a different CAF site today…it said, " A bird does not sing because it has an answer. It sings because it has a song". LOL

 

[simple_soul]

What I am hearing you say is that by opening ourselves to God, we allow Him to turn us into the creation He has in mind…

Exactly.

The image coming to mind , from reading earlier posts, is that we can open all the “doors” to all the rooms in our “house”, and let God take care of them all…even the rooms we have a hard time inviting Him into……and that goes back to “unity” …I think it is truly a form of penance in itself to share the messes with Him as openly as the tidier stuff…

*You know, when I first read the word “penance” at first I cringed and I had to ask myself why. I believe it is because I never looked at it as being penance. I just always looked at it as doing what I needed to do to keep growing in my union or personal relationship with God and yes that meant sharing the messes with Him. To me that is the only way the messy rooms get tidied up. *

 

[JReducation]

What I am hearing you say is that by opening ourselves to God, we allow Him to turn us into the creation He has in mind…
The image coming to mind , from reading earlier posts, is that we can open all the “doors” to all the rooms in our “house”, and let God take care of them all…even the rooms we have a hard time inviting Him into……and that goes back to “unity” …I think it is truly a form of penance in itself to share the messes with Him as openly as the tidier stuff…

*It is like we have to fully accept our humanity and our divinity. Both of which, from my understanding, are really a gift from Himself and of Himself to us.
We either work against Him and corrupt this gift of Himself to us or we work with Him so that He can perfect it. *

These posts resonate with me. I spend a lot of time with men in crisis pregnancies. In fact I run a ministry for them. I must see about 35 to 45 men per month. I can only do this several hours per week, because of my cancer. There are days when I can’t go out, which is a penance for me, but that’s another story.

Anyway, you have made me think of something that I said to the bishop three days ago. We were talking about my dads. I explained to His Excellency that I take a two pronged approach.

First, I secure the dad’s support to bring the baby into the world and a commitment to care for the baby. Many of these dads will just walk when the girlfriend says that she’s pregnant. Others immediately want an abortion.

Second, I try to work on conversion of manners. Some of them are promiscuous.

However, as I told His Excellency, I can’t help loving these men, because to me their my brothers. When I look at them, I feel as if I’m looking at a kid who just fell in the mud, on the surfface, not very attractive. However, if I look at the man that God sees, he’s beautiful.

A life of penance is just that. St. Benedict called it “conversion of manners”. I call it, washing the mud off so that the beautiful man or woman who God sees can be seen by all.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[simple_soul]

These posts resonate with me. I spend a lot of time with men in crisis pregnancies. In fact I run a ministry for them. I must see about 35 to 45 men per month. I can only do this several hours per week, because of my cancer. There are days when I can’t go out, which is a penance for me, but that’s another story.

Anyway, you have made me think of something that I said to the bishop three days ago. We were talking about my dads. I explained to His Excellency that I take a two pronged approach.

First, I secure the dad’s support to bring the baby into the world and a commitment to care for the baby. Many of these dads will just walk when the girlfriend says that she’s pregnant. Others immediately want an abortion.

Second, I try to work on conversion of manners. Some of them are promiscuous.

However, as I told His Excellency, I can’t help loving these men, because to me their my brothers. When I look at them, I feel as if I’m looking at a kid who just fell in the mud, on the surfface, not very attractive. However, if I look at the man that God sees, he’s beautiful.

A life of penance is just that. St. Benedict called it “conversion of manners”. I call it, washing the mud off so that the beautiful man or woman who God sees can be seen by all.
Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

*That is a beautiful way to see it. I believe where I run into a lot of problems is whenever I try helping others wash off their mud I loose sight of my own mud. So now I am in a quandary and wondering if I should even be concerned about their mud. Should I be concerned about others mud and if I should what is the best way to help others without loosing sight of my own muddy face? *

 

[TrueLight]

*That is a beautiful way to see it. I believe where I run into a lot of problems is whenever I try helping others wash off their mud I loose sight of my own mud. So now I am in a quandary and wondering if I should even be concerned about their mud. Should I be concerned about others mud and if I should what is the best way to help others without loosing sight of my own muddy face? *

Based on what I’ve been reading of St Francis, maybe the best thing to do is to make sure your face is as clean as possible, so that those of the muddy faces will say, “Hmm. Maybe I should wash my face.”

 

[simple_soul]

Based on what I’ve been reading of St Francis, maybe the best thing to do is to make sure your face is as clean as possible, so that those of the muddy faces will say, “Hmm. Maybe I should wash my face.”

 

[JReducation]

Based on what I’ve been reading of St Francis, maybe the best thing to do is to make sure your face is as clean as possible, so that those of the muddy faces will say, “Hmm. Maybe I should wash my face.”

BINGO!

TL you’re starting to sound like a Franciscan. If we work on our own conversion, others will observe and learn.

Look at people like St. Francis, St. Teresa of Avila, Mother Teresa of Calcutta, and Bl. John Paul II. They preached conversion through their walking.

Fraternaly,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[rainbow1]

On the topic of detachment…I was reading this quote from St.Francis of Assisi by Chesterton:
"The whole idea of St.Francis was that the Little Brothers should be like little fishes who could go freely in and out of that net. They could do so precisely because they were small fishes and in that sense even slippery fishes. There was nothing that the world could hold them by; for the world catches us mostly by the fringes of our garments, the futile externals of our lives. One of the Franciscans says later, "A monk should own nothing but his harp"; meaning, I suppose, that he should value nothing but his song, the song with which it was his business as a minstrel to serenade every castle and cottage, the song of the joy of the Creator in his creation and the beauty of the brotherhood of men. In imagining the life of this sort of visionary vagabond, we may already get a glimpse also of the practical side of that asceticism which puzzles those who think themselves practical. A man had to be thin to pass always through the bars and out of the cage; he had to travel light in order to ride so fast and so far. It was the whole calculation, so to speak, of that innocent cunning, that the world was to be outflanked and outwitted by him, and be embarrassed about what to do with him. You could not threaten to starve a man who was ever striving to fast. You could not ruin him and reduce him to beggary, for he was already a beggar. There was a very lukewarm satisfaction even in beating him with a stick, when he only indulged in little leaps and cries of joy because indignity was his only dignity. You could not put his head in a halter without the risk of putting it in a halo."