Why Accept Joseph Smith?

[why_me]

Didn’t Joseph Smith die with a gun in his hand? I know he fired shots at the mob that went for him. That’s not exactly giving his life.

Actually, he didn’t die with a gun in his hand. It is true that he did have a six shooter that was smuggled into the prison. However, if a mob of a hundred people painted in black faces storm the small prison, a six shooter does not matter much. Also, Joseph used the pistol only after his brother was shot dead by the mob as the mob ran up the stairs. I would have done the same. What was Joseph’s brother guilty of? He volunteered to accompany his brother to prison.

Both gave their lives for what they believed.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Actually, he didn’t die with a gun in his hand. It is true that he did have a six shooter that was smuggled into the prison. However, if a mob of a hundred people painted in black faces storm the small prison, a six shooter does not matter much. Also, Joseph used the pistol only after his brother was shot dead by the mob as the mob ran up the stairs. I would have done the same. What was Joseph’s brother guilty of? He volunteered to accompany his brother to prison.

Both gave their lives for what they believed.

Oh, I stand corrected. He fired all shots and threw the pistol down before he jumped out the window only to be shot in the back by those he fired upon.

Edited to add: Wasn’t Joseph’s brother also under arrest for treason? Not saying he was guilty, but apparently all were charged with rioting and the Smith brothers were charged with treason.

 

[why_me]

May 1844, Smith proclaimed this: "I have more to boast of than any man ever had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a church together since the days of Adam.…**
Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it**. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet.

I think that the mormons on this forum have responded to this quotation many times, but so far it hasn’t had much of an affect on you since you still bring it up.

Question
Joseph Smith is reported as saying:

“I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam… Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet.” (History of The Church 6:408–409. BYU Studies link
This attitude strikes some as boastful, and unbecoming a prophet.

Answer
Main article: Joseph_Smith’s_narcissism
The quote in which Joseph Smith seems to boast is an interesting one. To understand the issues, we must remember:

it is not based on Joseph’s own writing; it is an account written after his death
Joseph was using a scriptural passage by Paul, and applying it to his own situation–the idea of “boasting” was Paul’s, not Joseph’s.
We will look at each of these aspects in more detail.

Entries made by scribes, not Joseph
Even in the History of the Church (where the speech is recreated in 6:408-409), it is described as resting upon a “synopsis” by Thomas Bullock. Is it, therefore, a primary source? Arguably not.[1]

But there are further questions. The date of the sermon is 26 May 1844. A month later, the Prophet was dead. Did he supervise this entry? No. The last years of his entries in the History of the Church were actually made by others after his death. It was common at the time for other authors to write as if someone else was speaking. So, these are not Joseph’s words–they are the words which others (who admired him enormously after his murder) put in his mouth. The basic content is more likely to be accurate than the subtle details of tone and style.

This point is vitally important to keep in mind when trying to assess the character of Joseph Smith, his moral and spiritual quality, through the so-called “Documentary History.” Even when it seems to have Joseph Smith speaking in the first person, the History of the Church may or may not actually be representing Joseph Smith’s actual voice. (Dean Jessee’s “Preface” to his collection of The Personal Writings of Joseph Smith specifically addresses the issue of the seeming egotism that entered into Joseph’s later statements which was quite foreign to the man himself–this came not because Joseph suddenly became egotistical, but because the voice we hear is no longer Joseph’s: it is the work of scribes following his death. They felt comfortable “praising” Joseph in ways which he would probably not have used.)

The impression which one gets of Joseph Smith from reading his authenticated personal statements is that of a humble and sincere man, struggling to do the will of God as he understood it. However, even if a note of proud defiance had crept into Joseph’s tone during a speech in Nauvoo, at a time when both city and Church were under threat and pressure from gangs of unprincipled bigots, such a moment of weakness would be understandable.

But, there is more to the story than this. What was Joseph’s intent in his speech? We can guess, even from the reconstruction that is available to us, as we will see in the next section.

First, though, we must address an issue which the above answer raises—does this mean the History of the Church is not reliable?

Is the History of the Church unreliable, then?

 

[why_me]

It worth saying that in the general reliability of the History of the Church, in view of the way it was put together, it is not the overall thrust or narrative that is likely to be inaccurate, but the nuances, the tone, the details. This is precisely the opposite problem from that which anti-Mormon critics would have us see in it: they think the overall story of the History incorrect (e.g. divine intervention, revelation, Joseph Smith’s prophetic calling, etc.), but they want us to accept the details of tone and mood that it furnishes—or at least they do when those details seem to put the Prophet in a bad light.

It’s amusing that the very same people who vehemently reject the History of the Church as an unreliable source when it seems to support the LDS position clutch it to their bosoms as an unparalleled historical treasure when they think they can use it as a weapon against the alleged errors of Mormonism.[2]

Boasting?
The critics’ second error is to take Joseph’s quote out of context. What was Joseph’s intent, and why did he use this approach? As it turns out, he was drawing from the Bible and applying its lessons to his own situation.

In the original context, Joseph was facing intense persecution by many people, including some he had previously considered to be his friends. The statement about “boasting” was supposedly made about a month before he was killed. He made it after reading 2 _Cor. 11: to the congregation. Note the following statement by Paul, in this scripture:

Again I say, let no one think me foolish; but if you do, receive me even as foolish, that I also may boast a little. That which I am speaking, I am not speaking it as the Lord would, but as in foolishness, in this confidence of boasting. Since many boast according to the flesh, I will boast also. For you, being so wise, bear the foolish gladly. (2 _Cor. 11:16-19, NASB)
Paul then launches into a literary tirade where he claims many things to make himself look the fool, to contrast himself with those who the Corinthians were listening to for their words of salvation, instead of to him. His words were meant to compare and contrast what the Saints at Corinth were doing against what he was offering.

Do the critics dismiss the words of Paul and deny his calling as an Apostle because he used such a literary approach that included boasting? No, they do not. Yet, they dismiss Joseph Smith when it is clear by his own statements, in context, that he engaged in the exact same literary approach. Consider the words of Joseph right after reading this chapter of Paul’s to the congregation:

My object is to let you know that I am right here on the spot where I intend to stay. I, like Paul, have been in perils, and oftener than anyone in this generation. As Paul boasted, I have suffered more than Paul did, I should be like a fish out of water, if I were out of persecutions. Perhaps my brethren think it requires all this to keep me humble. The Lord has constituted me curiously that I glory in persecution. I am not nearly so humble as if I were not persecuted. If oppression will make a wise man mad, much more a fool. If they want a beardless boy to whip all the world, I will get on the top of a mountain and crow like a rooster: I shall always beat them. When facts are proved, truth and innocence will prevail at last. My enemies are no philosophers: they think that when they have my spoke under, they will keep me down; but for the fools, I will hold on and fly over them.[3**]
Joseph then makes the statements that the critics attack, in the same way that Paul made outrageous “boasts” to contrast his position with the position of those who the Corinthians were starting to listen to. Paul starts the next chapter of 2 Corinthians with the statement “boasting is necessary, though it is not profitable.” So, it would appear that Paul recognizes the necessity of boasting at times against the wicked and hard-hearted (though it may do little good, being unprofitable), yet the critics do not allow Joseph to follow Paul’s advice and, of necessity, boast at times.

Perhaps the critics are unaware of Paul’s advice? Or perhaps they apply a double standard where Paul is allowed such literary and rhetorical license, but Joseph is not?

Such double standards are, sadly, the stock-in-trade of sectarian anti-Mormonism.

In short, Joseph is using the scripture in Paul as a counter-argument (or a rhetorical device)–he is responding to his critics, and demonstrating that (as with Paul) true messengers from God are often persecuted by those who should listen, while the false and apostate are praised.
en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Narcissism/Did_Joseph_Smith_‘boast’_of_keeping_the_Church_intact

I hope that this puts an end of this boastingquotation by Joseph Smith appearing every other day.

 

[Stephen168]

May 1844, Smith proclaimed this: “I have more to boast of than any man ever had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a church together since the days of Adam.…
Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet.”

30 days later, June 27, 1844; Joseph Smith was shot in Carthage jail.

Then his Church instantly fell apart.

 

[why_me]

Then his Church instantly fell apart.

It did? The mob wished that it had. In fact, this is one reason they murdered Joseph Smith…because they thought with the Joseph gone, the church would fall apart. But it didn’t. And the mob was disappointed.

And you know the context of Joseph’s statement…but you refuse to recognize it. It doesn’t fit your belief system and so you ignore the context of his words. But as I have just posted above, he did make it in humbleness with a good context.

 

[hosemonkey]

Oh, I stand corrected. He fired all shots and threw the pistol down before he jumped out the window only to be shot down.

You have to understand that WhyMe claims to be both mormon AND Catholic, so you can see that he is a little confused. Its’ a good thing that Joseph Smith didn’t have an AK-47, otherwise the mormons would not have a “martyr” and the course of mormonism would have been changed forever. The fact was that Joseph and his henchmen got about what could be expected, their crimes having provoked their neighbors into mob violence.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

It did? The mob wished that it had. In fact, this is one reason they murdered Joseph Smith…because they thought with the Joseph gone, the church would fall apart. But it didn’t. And the mob was disappointed.

And you know the context of Joseph’s statement…but you refuse to recognize it. It doesn’t fit your belief system and so you ignore the context of his words. But as I have just posted above, he did make it in humbleness with a good context.

Consequences in the Latter Day Saint movement

After the death of the Smiths, a succession crisis occurred in the Latter Day Saint movement. Hyrum Smith, the Assistant President of the Church, was intended to succeed Joseph as President of the Church, but because he was killed with his brother, the proper succession procedure became unclear.

Initially, the primary contenders to succeed Joseph Smith were Sidney Rigdon, Brigham Young, and James Strang. Rigdon was the senior surviving member of the First Presidency, a body which had led the church since 1832. However, at the time of the Smiths’ death, Rigdon had been estranged from Smith due to differences in doctrinal beliefs. Young, president of the Quorum of the Twelve, claimed authority had been handed by Smith to the Quorum of the Twelve. Strang claimed that Smith had designated him as the successor in a letter that had been received by Strang a week before Smith’s death. Later, others came to believe that Smith’s son Joseph Smith III was the rightful successor.

A schism resulted, with each claimant attracting followers. The majority of Latter Day Saints followed Young; these adherents later emigrated to Utah Territory and continued as The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Rigdon’s followers were known as Rigdonites, some of which later established The Church of Jesus Christ (Bickertonite). Strang’s followers established the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Strangite). In the 1860s, those who felt that Smith should have been succeeded by Joseph Smith III established the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, which later changed its name to Community of Christ.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

And you know the context of Joseph’s statement…but you refuse to recognize it. It doesn’t fit your belief system and so you ignore the context of his words. But as I have just posted above, he did make it in humbleness with a good context.

You know the context of Joseph’s statement…but you refuse to recognize it. It doesn’t fit your belief system and so you ignore the context of his words.

 

[Jay53]

I find it interesting that Joseph supposedly died a month after making that statement. Similar to how the captain of the Titantic boasted that even God couldn’t sink that ship. And we all know what happened to that.

Just an observation.

 

[lax16]

One trait that Joseph Smith had was determination. He gave his life for his faith and for his calling and by doing so, he showed determination that he would see his calling as prophet through without giving up.

Another trait that I like about Joseph Smith is his revolutionary ideas. He took christianity to new areas of discovery and in his own way, he revolutionized christianity even though he knew that it could cause problems down the road. He showed fortitude.

Joseph Smith like many prophets before him, was rejected by the people he was trying to save. No man at that time generated more hatred as did Joseph Smith and yet, America at that time was supposed to be a land of religious toleration. The contradiction is amazing.

Also, Joseph Smith was from humble origins. His family was not rich nor successful. He was uneducated in the traditional sense and yet, Joseph himself was a creator of cities and communities with the help of other mormons. Joseph grew into his calling as did the prophets before him.

He died at the young age of 38. And yet, he accomplished much in his short life. And when all this began, he was just in his early twenties.

I hope that this helps. You can read Rough Stone Rolling by Richard Bushman published in 2005 by Knopf.

Thanks whyme for your response. I look forward to other LDS responses.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

You have to understand that WhyMe claims to be both mormon AND Catholic, so you can see that he is a little confused. Its’ a good thing that Joseph Smith didn’t have an AK-47, otherwise the mormons would not have a “martyr” and the course of mormonism would have been changed forever. The fact was that Joseph and his henchmen got about what could be expected, their crimes having provoked their neighbors into mob violence.

You have to wonder whether or not it was a stirring of patriots. Smith had prophecied the the US Government would be utterly overthrown and wasted, and there would not even be so much as a potsherd left…

'I prophecy in the name of the Lord God of Israel, unless the United States redress the wrongs committed upon the Saints in the state of Missouri and punish the crimes committed by her officers that in a few years the government will be utterly overthrown and wasted, and there will not be so much as a potsherd left for their wickedness in permitting the murder of men, women and children, and the wholesale plunder and extermination of thousands of her citizens to go unpunished, thereby perpetrating a foul and corroding blot upon the fair fame of this great republic, the very thought of which would have caused the high-minded and patriotic framers of the Constitution of the United States to hide their faces with shame.

 

[why_me]

You know the context of Joseph’s statement…but you refuse to recognize it. It doesn’t fit your belief system and so you ignore the context of his words.

I gave you the context of the quotation. You gave me a quotation pasted from an antimormon website without context explanation. You can believe the mormon explanation or reject it. But you shouldn’t post the quotation without the mormon context unless of course, you want to mislead people.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I gave you the context of the quotation. You gave me a quotation pasted from an antimormon website without context explanation. You can believe the mormon explanation or reject it. But you shouldn’t post the quotation without the mormon context unless of course, you want to mislead people.

The text of what he spoke speaks clearly. The ‘explanation’ you provided is no more than ‘spin’, in my honest opinion.

I had asked about the secrecy of the temple ceremonies and another Mormon stated I should find the answers online. These answers are also found online. Or am I supposed to only accept those things you’re willing to discuss and find the rest online?

Edited to add:

In D&C 3:4 (given in 1828), we find this: “For although a man may have many revelations, and have power to do many mighty works, yet if he boasts in his own strength, and sets at naught the counsels of God, and follows after the dictates of his own will and carnal desires, he must fall and incur the vengeance of a just God upon him…”

This was written before Joseph Smith boasted he had done more than any man, including Jesus.

 

[why_me]

I find it interesting that Joseph supposedly died a month after making that statement. Similar to how the captain of the Titantic boasted that even God couldn’t sink that ship. And we all know what happened to that.

Just an observation.

Another catholic who ignores the context of the quotation that I posted on the last page. It is quite obvious that some catholics just can not see the context because they refuse to see it. But, such is life.

I suppose that the boast by paul can also be compared to the captain of the titantic since Paul was also murdered.

 

[why_me]

The text of what he spoke speaks clearly. The ‘explanation’ you provided is no more than ‘spin’, in my honest opinion.

Of course, you would think that it is spin. You need to see it as spin since you love pasting that quotation without context. It fits into your belief system. But still the context is important and also the fact, that the quotation attributed to JS was recorded by a notetaker and may not be even Joseph’ own words exactly.

Read the mormon apologetic ‘spin’.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Of course, you would think that it is spin. You need to see it as spin since you love pasting that quotation without context. It fits into your belief system. But still the context is important and also the fact, that the quotation attributed to JS was recorded by a notetaker and may not be even Joseph’ own words exactly.

Read the mormon apologetic ‘spin’.

There are plenty of failed prophecies, of Joseph Smith, we can discuss. One in particular has brought out multiple explanations from multiple Mormons. The ‘spin’ spins on…

 

[why_me]

The text of what he spoke speaks clearly. The ‘explanation’ you provided is no more than ‘spin’, in my honest opinion.

This was written before Joseph Smith boasted he had done more than any man, including Jesus.

Still ignoring the context of the quotation you posted. It is sad, really sad…but such is life…

 

[lax16]

Another catholic who ignores the context of the quotation that I posted on the last page. It is quite obvious that some catholics just can not see the context because they refuse to see it. But, such is life.

I suppose that the boast by paul can also be compared to the captain of the titantic since Paul was also murdered.

1. Paul did not start his own church.
2. Paul did not lead anyone away from the Church that Jesus Christ Himself founded.
3. Today, we can look at Paul’s life with great admiration (sins and all) and see his great contribution to the Church.
4. Paul’s conversion brought him into the Church that Jesus founded, the Catholic Church.

As you can see, there is NO COMPARISON between Paul and Joseph Smith.

 

[Stephen168]

It did? The mob wished that it had. In fact, this is one reason they murdered Joseph Smith…because they thought with the Joseph gone, the church would fall apart. But it didn’t.

Yes it did. Upon his death the Latter Day Saint Movement split into at least four different groups. Those four groups have splintered into over 30 groups. Yes, his Church fell apart.
And there were about 6 groups that left him while he was still alive. So he was a liar and a false prophet.