Why All "good people" won't be in Heaven

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N0X3x said:
I am an agnostic by belief because, while I think that there is a good possibility that God exists, but I am by no means certain. Since agnosticism is not a practical philosophy, I live my life, for all intents and purposes, as if Catholicism were true, since it is the worldview that I think is most likely to be accurate.
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A Pascal’s Wager situation.
 
PietroPaolo said:
A Pascal’s Wager situation.
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In a certain sense, I suppose, but pascal’s wager usually implies that the person taking it is doing so for his own benefit. I operate under the assumption that Catholicism is true not because I benefit from of it, but because I think Catholicism is more likely to be true than any other worldview that would affect my day to day life.
 
N0X3x said:
In a certain sense, I suppose, but pascal’s wager usually implies that the person taking it is doing so for his own benefit. I operate under the assumption that Catholicism is true not because I benefit from of it, but because I think Catholicism is more likely to be true than any other worldview that would affect my day to day life.
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But IF Catholicism is most likely true. And IF you don’t you don’t believe (agnostic by belief), then aren’t you most likely heading towards the Infernal rather than the Beatific Vision? Catholicism is pretty clear that belief is ordinarily required for salvation.

IOW, assuming that Catholicism is most likely true, shouldn’t you spend every waking hour determining whether or not it really is true (so you can make an act of faith), considering what is most likely at stake?
 
The common way of the world is to follow your own way and assume that that’s good enough. That, somehow, when you look at everyone else, you assume that you’re better than most. That is the pinnacle of arrogance, though. Disbelief in things like Allah, His Oneness, His prophets and so forth is not morally neutral. So, in the case of someone who tries to be good whilst yet disbelieving in the Lord of The Universe, that is like a murderer saying “Well yeah, I try not to murder people, but I still do. I mow my mosque’s lawn every week, though, so I’m sure the police will understand.”.

Suffice to say that most people alive today will be in Hell, including many who claim to be muslims.
 
As Salamu Aleykum.

According to Islam, good people will go to heaven.
You dont need to be perfect before god.
Because God created you and all Mankind imperfect.
Being good is enough to go to heaven. God will judge your
intention.
 
PietroPaolo said:
But IF Catholicism is most likely true. And IF you don’t you don’t believe (agnostic by belief), then aren’t you most likely heading towards the Infernal rather than the Beatific Vision? Catholicism is pretty clear that belief is ordinarily required for salvation.
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For my own sake, I hope God extends grace to those that doubt - even Mother Teresa when through years with a doubting faith.

Mathew 17:20 gives us good hope. (Remember mustard sees are basically the size of dust, and in ancient times, considered the ideal of the smallest of the small.)

He replied, “Because you have so little faith. Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.”

…

In my opinion, N0X3x is being incredibly wise - in using his mind to align himself with something good. I’m confident that God will give this good person a inkling of faith that can be built upon.
 
PietroPaolo said:
Hello non-Catholics,

As you probably know the Church teaches that it isn’t enough to be a “good person” to be saved (that’s Pelagianism). I outline, briefly, the Church’s teaching as to why this is true here, if anyone is interested:

IS BEING A GOOD PERSON ENOUGH TO BE SAVED?

My question to you is what is your religion’s (or personal) response? Are all “good people” saved? (Catholics feel free to answer with your personal take too.) Is it better to be a “good Buddhist” than a “bad Catholic”?

Thanks.
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Since you ask for response from other religions, in Hinduism there is no eternal damnation. Heaven however is a temporary place where you may be sent between lifetimes as a reward for good deeds mainly for some recuperation before the next lifetime. But before that you may also spend some time in hell to pay for your sins. Evil people may spend all their time between lives in hell.

Salvation really means liberation from this cycle of birth and death. Eventually after many lifetimes of spiritual growth, we may achieve this liberation (moksha in Hinduism or nirvana in Buddhism). This liberation is basically union with God, so it is even better than Heaven (though some may disagree).

So nobody is ever completely lost, although really evil people who never reform will spend such a long time in hell, that for practical purposes it may be for ever (since the Universe will eventually end).

So all good people will get to be in heaven (temporarily)
 
QUOTE=PietroPaolo;11721269

Salvation is only by grace and mercy of Allah(God, Creator of everything, etc). Grace and mercy of Allah is depend on faith. Faith is the highest goodness so who has a faith he is good but that does not mean that a faithful is allway true, good in all situations so he can make mistake, wrong and sin. But if a faithfull forswear for his sins God could forgive.

Who are good peoples? Hhonest, virtious, harmless, benevolent, scrupulous , etc are good. But that kind good people will not have a salvation if yhey have not faith. İndeed faithful people must endeavour to get that good characters.

World life is an exam and main point of this is faith. The others come secondly.

This faith is that revealed by prophets. That is not only Muslims’, Christians’ or Jews’. But there is a clause that accepting and confirm all prophets and do not reject one of them. And now we disagree at point in details.
 
hasantas said:
Salvation is only by grace and mercy of Allah(God, Creator of everything, etc). Grace and mercy of Allah is depend on faith. Faith is the highest goodness so who has a faith he is good but that does not mean that a faithful is allway true, good in all situations so he can make mistake, wrong and sin. But if a faithfull forswear for his sins God could forgive.

Who are good peoples? Hhonest, virtious, harmless, benevolent, scrupulous , etc are good. But that kind good people will not have a salvation if yhey have not faith. İndeed faithful people must endeavour to get that good characters.

World life is an exam and main point of this is faith. The others come secondly.

This faith is that revealed by prophets. That is not only Muslims’, Christians’ or Jews’. But there is a clause that accepting and confirm all prophets and do not reject one of them. And now we disagree at point in details.
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The point we disagree on is whether or not Mohammed is a real prophet, correct? Otherwise, we seem to be somewhat close on the idea of Salvation, with the exception of the role of the Sacraments (i.e. baptism, Eucharist, confession).
 
glendab said:
But what is “good?” It has become a relative term. What I’d consider good may be good for me, but bad to you. So how do you describe “good people.” It’s almost laughably colloquial: “Oh, you know he’s good people, so you should hire him…”

Jesus even posed a similar question to a scholar of the law when he called Him “good teacher.” “Who are you to say I’m good?” It’s a valid question. What’s good to a Jew isn’t good to you. They believe in God but deny Jesus as the Messiah, so how do they get to Heaven? They’re being “good” by denying this Man, Jesus as Lord. :o Ummmm…food for thought.

Glenda
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Good is when you manifest the attributes of God to a higher degree on a day to day basis. This is doing the Will of the Father.

This cannot be achieved without grace and the divine confirmations which come with sincerity and purity of heart.

Striving for this eternal process brings salvation.

Even pure intent to go through this process, in itself, brings salvation.

If the intent is pure, yet the outcome isn’t as fully desired, God is well pleased.

.
 
N0X3x said:
In a certain sense, I suppose, but pascal’s wager usually implies that the person taking it is doing so for his own benefit. I operate under the assumption that Catholicism is true not because I benefit from of it, but because I think Catholicism is more likely to be true than any other worldview that would affect my day to day life.
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N0X,

Thanks for sharing. Very interesting posts. Kind of like religion by reason alone?

I’m curious about your level of involvement in the Church / Sacraments?

Curious about if you don’t recieve communion because of doubt in it’s taught nature? Similar with Confession?

Have a good one.
 
PietroPaolo said:
The point we disagree on is whether or not Mohammed is a real prophet, correct? Otherwise, we seem to be somewhat close on the idea of Salvation, with the exception of the role of the Sacraments (i.e. baptism, Eucharist, confession).
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I have very certain belief that Muhammed is messenger of Allah and seal of prophet and ı am very sure perhaps more than you that ı believe in Jesus. İt is your exam and problem to believe or not, you are free. There are thousand certain proofs prove that Muhammed is a prophet and Habibullah (loved of God) and Jesus is Kelimetullah (word of God). These are not points to debate for me.

Christian have sacrements and İslam have more sacraments that support and fulfil faith and getting love of God. Forexample Muslim wash their hands, face, foot, mouth, nose and head(ablution) that get cleaned humanbeing as morally and get prepared for İslamic sacraments(Salat, reading Quran etc.). Muslims have confession but not to İmams or sheiks but direct to Allah. Prophets and other morally important people can be interceders but not more so Muslims do not go beyond the limits.

We disagree on attributes of Allah(God). Muslims have certain evidences in Quran and Gospels that Jesus is a prophet( according to your faith there are two parts of Jesus. With one part He is % 100 humanbeing. Now we say that Jesus was a prophet because He lived and worked for faith and performed some miracles just like other prophets by his human nature. İs there any matter with that? But for second part neither Muslims nor Christians have certain evidences in Quran and Gospels. I think that is a designation for you. But ı cannot boldly reject Jesus because ıf ı do like that ı will lose my faith.)

Christianity is a God’s religion and have many truths and morally values so a Christian could stay as a Christian without denial others. İslam have millions morally values that proves (miracles and karamats of Evliyas, sheiks and true dreams etc. ) İslam sources are Holy from God. God will judge us for our deeds, acts, good intends and faiths.
I pray for all of us to go on a truth path. Amin!
 
If Christianity is God’s religion and has many truths and moral values, then why isn’t everyone who knows this is the Truth following the truth and morality.

Isn’t that morality the exact difference OT to NT. Why would man ignore this self proclaimed truth and morality?
 
If man is to follow a moral and civil law by God, then which one is moral and civil that WE ALL should be following or is it all relevant?

Why isn’t Catholicism more likely to be true, be it we are speaking morality. Which moral law is wrong which we disagree with?

Love your neighbor as yourself. everyone agree with this one. Yes?
 
GaryTaylor said:
If man is to follow a moral and civil law by God, then which one is moral and civil that WE ALL should be following or is it all relevant?

Why isn’t Catholicism more likely to be true, be it we are speaking morality. Which moral law is wrong which we disagree with?

Love your neighbor as yourself. everyone agree with this one. Yes?
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None of the moral Laws passed down from all the previous global religions prior to the Baha’i Faith were intended to be “global”

A global set of ethics and morals was for the first time in history, revealed by Baha’u’llah

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“Christianity is a God’s religion and have many truths and morally is a stated point.”

I see nothing more moral and true “universally speaking” than the moral teaching of love your neighbor as yourself.

So if we step outside the narrow confines of our mind restricted to a religion instead to comparative religion and God. I would have to think its Gods moral teaching for man.

In this case speaking comparatively “good people” can get to heaven? Those are good people loving their neighbor as themselves.

How do we know when we are loving ourselves correctly so we may love others correctly?
 
GaryTaylor said:
According to who?
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Logic 🙂

The social structures during the religion of Jesus had no concept of the world at the time of His Revelation

Neither the US or Australia were even remotely close to being discovered…

.
 
Please do not think that I do not think that Jesus did not reveal “any” moral teachings which can be applied universally, but there were definitely teachings in Judeo-Christianity and Islam which were time and place specific…

Just my humble deductions on what I have learnt 🙂

.
 
Servant19 said:
Logic 🙂

The social structures during the religion of Jesus had no concept of the world at the time of His Revelation

Neither the US or Australia were even remotely close to being discovered…

.
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Your restricted to “religion” If we move past that to good people getting to heaven who are not restricted to this then love your neighbor applies still.
 
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