Why all the decadence?

[Myrrh23]

Hey!

I mean absolutely no disrespect by my observations and questions! I am currently Roman Catholic, and am interested in Eastern Orthodoxy for Liturgy and Belief reasons. The only thing that disturbs me about RC and EO is the decadence that I see—the gold objects, the silk robes and embroidery, etc. I keep thinking, do we really need all this STUFF? The money that paid for all this stuff could have gone to the poor. I appreciate any counter points. Thanks!

Sincerely,
Myrrh23

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Hey!

I mean absolutely no disrespect by my observations and questions! I am currently Roman Catholic, and am interested in Eastern Orthodoxy for Liturgy and Belief reasons. The only thing that disturbs me about RC and EO is the decadence that I see—the gold objects, the silk robes and embroidery, etc. I keep thinking, do we really need all this STUFF? The money that paid for all this stuff could have gone to the poor. I appreciate any counter points. Thanks!

Sincerely,
Myrrh23

The poor you will always have among you.

 

[freudmacher]

This is just what I have been told, I am definately NO scholar of the Bible.

The only one that said anything like this in the Bible was Judas…and Jesus rebuked him

 

[Caesar]

Hey!

I mean absolutely no disrespect by my observations and questions! I am currently Roman Catholic, and am interested in Eastern Orthodoxy for Liturgy and Belief reasons. The only thing that disturbs me about RC and EO is the decadence that I see—the gold objects, the silk robes and embroidery, etc. I keep thinking, do we really need all this STUFF? The money that paid for all this stuff could have gone to the poor. I appreciate any counter points. Thanks!

Sincerely,
Myrrh23

Such things are set aside for the worship of God. At Holy Mass or the Divine Liturgy, the Altar becomes the throne of God, present in the Holy Eucharist. We give to God the best of what we have. Recall the following:

*And when Jesus was in Bethania, in the house of Simon the leper, there came to him a woman having an alabaster box of precious ointment, and poured it on his head as he was at table. And the disciples seeing it, had indignation, saying: To what purpose is this waste? For this might have been sold for much, and given to the poor. And Jesus knowing it, said to them: Why do you trouble this woman? for she hath wrought a good work upon me.

For the poor you have always with you: but me you have not always. For she in pouring this ointment upon my body, hath done it for my burial. Amen I say to you, wheresoever this gospel shall be preached in the whole world, that also which she hath done, shall be told for a memory of her.*

Matthew 26:6-13

It is also interesting to note that in many poor countries the faithful have offered what little they have so that their churches may be beautiful and the vestments ornate. St. Jean Vianney, the humble parish priest of Ars, lived an austere life, yet the liturgical vestments could never be beautiful enough nor the sacred vessels ornate enough for Holy Mass.

 

[Patchunky]

and embroidery, etc. I keep thinking, do we really need all this STUFF?

I don’t know if this will help but, I painted a few ikons for the church that my grandparents help to start. I donated the ikons and then I also bought some embroided rushnyky (ikon scarves) for these ikons. I did this as a way of remembering my grandparents and honoring them for starting this parish.

I am in the process of painting 2 more ikons for a Golgatha (Crucifixion scene) in this same church. I just bought another rushnyk from a woman in Ukraine. Once again, this will donated in loving of my grandparents and my father and his siblings.

I was taught that the church should be as beautiful and gorgeous as possible because this was God’s home on earth.

I hope this helps you…

 

[Caesar]

I don’t know if this will help but, I painted a few ikons for the church that my grandparents help to start. I donated the ikons and then I also bought some embroided rushnyky (ikon scarves) for these ikons. I did this as a way of remembering my grandparents and honoring them for starting this parish.

I am in the process of painting 2 more ikons for a Golgatha (Crucifixion) scene in this same church. I just bought another rushnyk from a woman in Ukraine. Once again, this will donated in loving of my grandparents and my father and his siblings.

I was taught that the church should be as beautiful and gorgeous as possible because this was God’s home on earth.

I hope this helps you…

Wonderful story.

 

[Alexius]

Hey!

I mean absolutely no disrespect by my observations and questions! I am currently Roman Catholic, and am interested in Eastern Orthodoxy for Liturgy and Belief reasons. The only thing that disturbs me about RC and EO is the decadence that I see—the gold objects, the silk robes and embroidery, etc. I keep thinking, do we really need all this STUFF? The money that paid for all this stuff could have gone to the poor. I appreciate any counter points. Thanks!

Sincerely,
Myrrh23

I used to feel the same way. The truth is; however, that the priests are not stuffing their pockets. The church liturgical garb is meant to be a pleasing sign to God. Those who wear such attire are concerned about the poor, but they are also concerned about being pleasing to God. Remember the garb that the Old Testament priesthood wore? Remember the 12 gemstones they wore to symbolize the twelve tribes? Remember all the gold and expensive fabrics that God commanded to be used for worship? Many churches I visit are very poor and most of the money went into the building itself. To pay the electrical and water bills is difficult. The fact that the people give what they can is a testimony to their faith…

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

 

[juliamajor]

Hey!

I mean absolutely no disrespect by my observations and questions! I am currently Roman Catholic, and am interested in Eastern Orthodoxy for Liturgy and Belief reasons. The only thing that disturbs me about RC and EO is the decadence that I see—the gold objects, the silk robes and embroidery, etc. I keep thinking, do we really need all this STUFF? The money that paid for all this stuff could have gone to the poor. I appreciate any counter points. Thanks!

Sincerely,
Myrrh23

It all started with the tent of meeting in the desert and the Temple in Jerusalem-only the best bronze silver gold was used along with embroidery on fabric- sound familiar!!

 

[mgy100]

Hey!

I mean absolutely no disrespect by my observations and questions! I am currently Roman Catholic, and am interested in Eastern Orthodoxy for Liturgy and Belief reasons. The only thing that disturbs me about RC and EO is the decadence that I see—the gold objects, the silk robes and embroidery, etc. I keep thinking, do we really need all this STUFF? The money that paid for all this stuff could have gone to the poor. I appreciate any counter points. Thanks!

Sincerely,
Myrrh23

Many of the items you see in Eastern parishes are donated by the people. Many items were assembled/painted/etc… by the people.
There was a story of a person I know who’s former eastern catholic parish received a new latin-rite priest.
The priest wasn’t happy with the fact that the icons in the church weren’t uniform. He took them down and put up “uniform” icons by the same writer (person who paints icons).
Needless to say, this made the people upset. Many of them had donated, painted and prayed in front of those icons for most of their lives.
I know of a church that holds its icons on the walls up with little shelves. The wood is rejected wood from a furniture wood plant.
Looks beautiful.
At least we don’t keep the churches bare, and have a podium for one man/woman to preach and sell expensive self-help books and tapes to the people, a new book every month for 50 bucks… taking money and money off of people.

 

[mardukm]

I mean absolutely no disrespect by my observations and questions! I am currently Roman Catholic, and am interested in Eastern Orthodoxy for Liturgy and Belief reasons. The only thing that disturbs me about RC and EO is the decadence that I see—the gold objects, the silk robes and embroidery, etc. I keep thinking, do we really need all this STUFF? The money that paid for all this stuff could have gone to the poor. I appreciate any counter points. Thanks!

I cannot say any more than what my fellow Catholics and Orthodox have stated to explain the reasons for the “STUFF.” That being said, I myself find simplicity very attaractive. Have you ever visited the Portiuncula at the Franciscan University in Steubenville? I visited there many years ago, and I really felt the Presence so powerfully, and this WITHOUT ANY of that “STUFF.”

I think people who are concerned about this issue fall into three camps: 1) Those who require the embroidery to inspire them during liturgical worship; 2) Those who DON’T require the embroidery to inspire them during liturgical worship, and would consider the embroidery a distraction in focusing on God; 3) Those who can worship God in any litrugical setting without cognizance of their surroundings.

Orthodox usually fall in the first category. Catholics who fall in the first category normally go Eastern or Oriental. Catholics usually fall in the second and third categories. I’ve never met an Orthodox who falls into the second or third categories. Orthodox who fall into the second or third categories are more appreciative of Catholicism, from my experience.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Irish_Melkite]

II think people who are concerned about this issue fall into three camps: 1) Those who require the embroidery to inspire them during liturgical worship; 2) Those who DON’T require the embroidery to inspire them during liturgical worship, and would consider the embroidery a distraction in focusing on God; 3) Those who can worship God in any litrugical setting without cognizance of their surroundings.

Orthodox usually fall in the first category. Catholics who fall in the first category normally go Eastern or Oriental. Catholics usually fall in the second and third categories. I’ve never met an Orthodox who falls into the second or third categories. Orthodox who fall into the second or third categories are more appreciative of Catholicism, from my experience.

Marduk, my brother,

Intended or not, I find the above comments to be insulting to those of us of the Eastern and Oriental Churches, Catholic and Orthodox. My sense is that we have been accused of a shallow faith that can only be aroused by worldly liturgical accoutrements.

I hope that was not your intent.

Many years,

Neil

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother Neil,

Intended or not, I find the above comments to be insulting to those of us of the Eastern and Oriental Churches, Catholic and Orthodox. My sense is that we have been accused of a shallow faith that can only be aroused by worldly liturgical accoutrements.

I hope that was not your intent.

Thank you for the benefit of the doubt. Indeed it was not. I am fully aware, appreciative and accepting of the sacramental/incarnational nature of our common apostolic theology. We experience God through creation.

I personally do not consider anything wrong with the need to experience God through the beauty found in Eastern/Oriental Catholic or Orthodox or Tradtional Catholic liturgies/masses/qorbono. I just wanted to point out the three categories, and the general mien within the Traditions.

I apologize for any misunderstanding my statements can cause.

Humbly,
Marduk

 

[VociMike]

Since when is beauty and fine art and artifacts equal to decadence?!

Here’s a useful exercise. Imagine a world without any fine art. Without any inspiring and magnificent architecture. Without any beautiful music. Without anything that was made with attention to its beauty and detail. Without anything that inspires in us delight, awe, reverence, joy, proper pride, wonder. Instead, all the money that would have gone to those things went to the poor.

Would that be a better world? Would we be a better people?

What you don’t understand is that filling the world with God-directed beauty benefits us all, including the poor. It points us all to the ultimate beauty which will be ours if we choose.

Throughout the ages the poor have given much to have beautiful churches and everything that goes with them. In America every immigrant community gave lavishly to build beautiful and worthy churches for themselves and their children. They understood.

 

[bpbasilphx]

I’ve never met an Orthodox who falls into the second or third categories.

A large part of my life has been spent in mission work, carrying the church in cardboard boxes to different sites for Divine Liturgy, and I’ve been to some strange places. Doubtless was a dental lab with an iconostasion.

And as far as “STUFF”, the very fact you have a building means you have STUFF.

 

[Contarini]

Hey!

I mean absolutely no disrespect by my observations and questions! I am currently Roman Catholic, and am interested in Eastern Orthodoxy for Liturgy and Belief reasons. The only thing that disturbs me about RC and EO is the decadence that I see—the gold objects, the silk robes and embroidery, etc.

Why do you describe this as decadence?

I keep thinking, do we really need all this STUFF? The money that paid for all this stuff could have gone to the poor. I appreciate any counter points.

From the fact that you are posting on the Internet, I deduce that you probably have a computer, and you obviously have time to spare from the necessities of survival. That being the case, why aren’t you serving the poor right now? If you have a computer, why don’t you sell it and give it to the poor?

If we are going to have any luxuries at all (i.e., any time or possessions not devoted to bare survival), then surely the worship of God is a good way to use those luxuries.

Beauty is a good thing. Period.

Furthermore, has it ever crossed your mind that this “decadence” is equally available to the poor and the rich? For much of human history, a beautiful church might be the only work of art most people ever saw. The more one thinks about the criticism you raise, the less sense it makes.

Edwin

 

[Jestocost]

“For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.” When I see an ugly or empty church and evidence of wealth among the congregation, I’m lead to wonder about the sincerity of their faith. If I were to donate a new chalice to the church, for example, I’m not going to look in the discount bins for one, unless I truly can’t afford more. If I commision an artwork, I’m not going to look for the lowest bidder. I going to look for the best artist I can afford. I give God the best I can, because he deserves far better even than that. Remember that the Church is for the entire community and what truly benefits it, benefits all, including the poor.

Decadence really does not apply here. If I buy myself or my wife some giant gold neclace to show off our wealth, that’s decadence. If I buy that much gold for the tabernacle, that’s charity. It benefits all.

 

[Malcolm_McLean]

I mean absolutely no disrespect by my observations and questions! I am currently Roman Catholic, and am interested in Eastern Orthodoxy for Liturgy and Belief reasons. The only thing that disturbs me about RC and EO is the decadence that I see—the gold objects, the silk robes and embroidery, etc. I keep thinking, do we really need all this STUFF? The money that paid for all this stuff could have gone to the poor. I appreciate any counter points. Thanks!

If I have a fine gold cup, of exquisite workmanship, it might be bought and sold several times and profits distributed to the poor.

However eventually it will be used as a cup. The question then is, should it hold the precious blood at Mass, or the 1973 vintage of a milionaire at his birthday party?

 

[Myrrh23]

Hey!

Thanks to all of your responses. I’ve certainly changed my mind!
To Malcolm McLean, WOW! I’m a person who loves expressions and anecdotes, and I fell in love with what you wrote! I’m gonna steal it from you…ahem “borrow”
I didn’t meditate on the reasons for having the brilliance you find in a lot of churches because I’m currently having a crisis of faith, yet I intend to stay either Rc or check out EO.

Love,
Myrrh23

 

[mardukm]

I cannot say any more than what my fellow Catholics and Orthodox have stated to explain the reasons for the “STUFF.” That being said, I myself find simplicity very attaractive. Have you ever visited the Portiuncula at the Franciscan University in Steubenville? I visited there many years ago, and I really felt the Presence so powerfully, and this WITHOUT ANY of that “STUFF.”

I think people who are concerned about this issue fall into three camps: 1) Those who require the embroidery to inspire them during liturgical worship; 2) Those who DON’T require the embroidery to inspire them during liturgical worship, and would consider the embroidery a distraction in focusing on God; 3) Those who can worship God in any litrugical setting without cognizance of their surroundings.

Orthodox usually fall in the first category. Catholics who fall in the first category normally go Eastern or Oriental. Catholics usually fall in the second and third categories. I’ve never met an Orthodox who falls into the second or third categories. Orthodox who fall into the second or third categories are more appreciative of Catholicism, from my experience.

I just spoke to my Filipina wife and she informed me that Filipinos ABSOLUTELY LOVE to beautify their Churches. They want to offer the best to God, she stated. Even the poor (and there are many of those in the Philippines) give as much as they can for the beautification of their churches.

I guess I need to change my third paragraph to state, "Orthodox and Filipino Catholics usually fall in the first category.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[lak611]

I cannot say any more than what my fellow Catholics and Orthodox have stated to explain the reasons for the “STUFF.” That being said, I myself find simplicity very attaractive. Have you ever visited the Portiuncula at the Franciscan University in Steubenville? I visited there many years ago, and I really felt the Presence so powerfully, and this WITHOUT ANY of that “STUFF.”

I think people who are concerned about this issue fall into three camps: 1) Those who require the embroidery to inspire them during liturgical worship; 2) Those who DON’T require the embroidery to inspire them during liturgical worship, and would consider the embroidery a distraction in focusing on God; 3) Those who can worship God in any litrugical setting without cognizance of their surroundings.

Orthodox usually fall in the first category. Catholics who fall in the first category normally go Eastern or Oriental. Catholics usually fall in the second and third categories. I’ve never met an Orthodox who falls into the second or third categories. Orthodox who fall into the second or third categories are more appreciative of Catholicism, from my experience.

Blessings,
Marduk

I find these comments to be a false stereotyping of Catholic and Orthodox Christians, and I am a Latin Rite Catholic. I appreciate beauty in liturgy. The best items have always been used for worship. This goes all the way back to the worship of the Israelites first in the tabernacle and later in the temple. God would not have commanded them to make these things if He did not approve. The Church is the fulfillment of the Old Covenant, so we worship God with our best too.