Why all the fuss about clapping, cheering, etc at Mass?

[anamchara]

Who are you clapping to? God!, or more than likely the choir, guitar players or priest.

God’s love which flows through us out to others, extends beyond the Mass my friend. If the Mass is over and the few people that remain in Mass to finish singing the last song want to give a little clap to our music people out of love, what is the problem with this?

 

[Jeanette_L]

Who are you clapping to? God!, or more than likely the choir, guitar players or priest.

wow, that’s a presumptuous statement. You think you can see into the hearts and minds of people, I thought only Christ himself is the judge of these.

 

[bkovacs]

I hope I didn’t mislead you into thinking that I disgree with clapping. I was saying that proper silence during those parts of the liturgy that call for it is to be observed.

I spoke about clapping at the Vatican to indicate precisely what you are saying. Clapping is often part of the liturgy, even at the Vatican, because it is part of the culture of the people or the place.

Maybe in the NO Liturgy, but not the EF (TLM)!. And it shouldn’t be part of the Liturgy. How can I pray silently, when I am getting distracted, by all this jumping up and down going on.

I was a missionary in South America, clapping is very much a part of the liturgy there. The Native Americans used to clap when they were pagans. They brought that custom with them into Christianity. They clap when they sing, as do the indigenous people of Africa. Even in modern day USA, black people clap when they sing Gospel Music. In Black parishes this is very common.

So we are changing the Liturgy, and incorperating extra customs (pagan traditions)and rituals to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Is this a different Rite. Can’t these extra customs be done outside of the Church, and Mass. These Gospel singing people are Protestants, NOT CATHOLICS!!.

It is not a sign of disrespect, but a sign of worship and joy among all these different cultures, especially among the Hispanics, Portuguese, Italians, Africans and Native Americans of South America.

Do I really want to hear clapping when I am trying to pray at the Mass?.

Among Anglo-Americans it is often a spontaneous form of gratitude or appreciation.

The liturgy does not forbid expressions of joy and enthusiasm. There is nothing in the rubrics against it. The rubrics are clear on the difference between joy and theatrics.

In the NO maybe. But NOT the EF. You can express joy silently, not shout it out for everyone to hear (theatrics), and distracting others in prayer.

JR

 

[bkovacs]

God’s love which flows through us out to others, extends beyond the Mass my friend. If the Mass is over and the few people that remain in Mass to finish singing the last song want to give a little clap to our music people out of love, what is the problem with this?

And what about those who stay after Mass, to pray silently. Would this not distract them. Can’t you chear the choir outside of the church?.

 

[bkovacs]

wow, that’s a presumptuous statement. You think you can see into the hearts and minds of people, I thought only Christ himself is the judge of these.

Well when you here the choir or guitar players finish and then get around of applause. It’s pretty obvious!.

 

[benedictgal]

I hope I didn’t mislead you into thinking that I disgree with clapping. I was saying that proper silence during those parts of the liturgy that call for it is to be observed.

I spoke about clapping at the Vatican to indicate precisely what you are saying. Clapping is often part of the liturgy, even at the Vatican, because it is part of the culture of the people or the place.

I was a missionary in South America, clapping is very much a part of the liturgy there. The Native Americans used to clap when they were pagans. They brought that custom with them into Christianity. They clap when they sing, as do the indigenous people of Africa. Even in modern day USA, black people clap when they sing Gospel Music. In Black parishes this is very common.

It is not a sign of disrespect, but a sign of worship and joy among all these different cultures, especially among the Hispanics, Portuguese, Italians, Africans and Native Americans of South America.

Among Anglo-Americans it is often a spontaneous form of gratitude or appreciation.

The liturgy does not forbid expressions of joy and enthusiasm. There is nothing in the rubrics against it. The rubrics are clear on the difference between joy and theatrics.

JR

Although, when the former Cardinal Ratzinger celebrated the Mass before the Conclave, there wasn’t much clapping going on there, nor was there clapping for any of the televised nine-day suffrage Masses for the late Pope John Paul II.

It’s interesting that you mention the rubrics. While there is nothing in the rubrics against it, that does not necessarily mean that you can go ahead and applaud all you want.

My diocese is perhaps the most Mexican-American in the country. Do we applaud our hands off all of the time? No. Nobody applauds as the bishop is recessing. We’ve only applauded on very few occasions: The first one came when the Apostolic Nucnio read the bull of erection of our diocese and the naming of our first bishop. The second happens when we have visiting prelates, such as a Honduran cardinal or a newly-ordained bishop (by the way, Michigan, we would love to have Bishop Flores as our own ). The other time applause happens is during ordinations, and, that was only because it was supposed to be the faithful’s sign of approval of the candidate to ordain.

Applause on its own cheapens the notion of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. The kind of joy experienced at the Mass is a much deeper one that transcends trite emotions. Emotions are fleeting. I can be really happy one monent and then mad as Hades at the next. When we applaud for everything and anything we fail to understand the real meaning behind what is happening during the Sacrifice. I experience a true joy, especially when the Mass is reverently celebrated and the music is most suitable for the Mass. All of the elements come together to draw us into the mystery of Jesus Christ’s salviffic act. That is something that is supposed to cut through the heart in a way that is far deeper than any emotional spontaneous combustion.

 

[Jeanette_L]

Well when you here the choir or guitar players finish and then get around of applause. It’s pretty obvious!.

You just attributed that to Anamchara though, that’s what was presumptuous.

And besides that, there is a joy that comes from appreciating the gifts with which God has graced his children, is it wrong to acknowledge these good gifts and praise God for them? And just because you are not inclined to give thanks to God in this manner, doesn’t mean that it is not appropriate and heart felt by others.

We should be careful about claiming to know what people’s intentions are. Not charitable.

 

[anamchara]

And what about those who stay after Mass, to pray silently. Would this not distract them. Can’t you chear the choir outside of the church?.

I don’t know why you threw in “cheering” perhaps to put more weight on it then it actually has. We don’t cheer, that’s ridiculous. It’s a quick, friendly clapping. But go a head and twist it, spin it anyway you want.

If people want to pray they can after Mass and do. Our harmless clapping which takes a total of 2 secs is not going to get in the way.

 

[anamchara]

You just attributed that to Anamchara though, that’s what was presumptuous.

And besides that, there is a joy that comes from appreciating the gifts with which God has graced his children, is it wrong to acknowledge these good gifts and praise God for them? And just because you are not inclined to give thanks to God in this manner, doesn’t mean that it is not appropriate and heart felt by others.

We should be careful about claiming to know what people’s intentions are. Not charitable.

Amen sister!

 

[benedictgal]

The underlying problem that I detect in quite a few of these posts is that, over the course of the past 40 years, we have lost the true understanding of what the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is. As a consequence, we have lost respect for the solemn and sacred Rites of the Church.

When we start injecting applause and objects foreign to the Mass, we are, in essence, saying that the Mass is boring, that it does not fulfill us spiritually and we take it upon ourselves to improve something that does not belong to us. The Mass is not some free form exercise in creativity. It is not our personal property. It is something that we receive from the Church, who, in turn, has received it from her Divine Spouse, Jesus Christ.

Ancient Israel took its form of cultic worship very seriously. God, for His part, took the form of cultic worship very seriously. If not, we would not have had pages and pages of norms and rubrics devoted to this in the books of Leviticus and Numbers. God was very specific as to how He wanted things done and the manner in which the Levites were to offer Him worship. Aaron’s sons messed up and got fried (literally) because they deviated from God’s command.

It took me awhile to figure out what Jesus said when he told the surviving Apostolic band that He had to fulfill the law of Moses and what the prophets had written about Him. Jesus’ perfect sacrifice on the Cross is that very fulfillment of the cultic worship that God established for His people. Jesus became the priest and the victim. The offerings of unleavened bread prescribed in Leviticus are the foretast of the Eucharistic Sacrifice.

What we seem to have collectively forgotten is the fact that we are the new Israel. We continue with what Ancient Israel had done for centuries until the Temple was destroyed. Look at the rituals in Leviticus: they bear a resemblance to what we do at the Mass.

Now, there are some of you who will argue that David danced before the Ark. David was not a priest. He was not performing some sort of liturgical function. What he did was not in the context of cultic worship of Yahweh. He didn’t interject something foreign into the worship because what he did was outside the cultic worship of the Lord.

We have no right to introduce our own personal tastes and idiosyncracies just because we don’t think the Mass is an emotional enough experience. Emotions can be a by-product, but they are not important.

 

[bkovacs]

I don’t know why you threw in “cheering” perhaps to put more weight on it then it actually has. We don’t cheer, that’s ridiculous. It’s a quick, friendly clapping. But go a head and twist it, spin it anyway you want.

If people want to pray they can after Mass and do. Our harmless clapping which takes a total of 2 secs is not going to get in the way.

Two seconds? Yeh right!. That’s two claps, considering a clap a second. More like a minute or two. Distracting!. Just do it outside of the church. Or in the Narthex with the Nave doors closed.

 

[benedictgal]

Two seconds? Yeh right!. That’s two claps, considering a clap a second. More like a minute or two. Distracting!. Just do it outside of the church. Or in the Narthex with the Nave doors closed.

You’ve hit the nail on the head. Clapping doesn’t last two seconds. That’s a bit of a stretch. It just goes to show that the focus is not where it should be.

Someone (not sure in this thread or in another one) mentioned that nobody was clapping during Calvary. Certainly, no one was clapping during the Last Supper. The angels were rejoicing at the Resurrection. But, the human reaction was more shock, awe and amazement. Awe and amazement are what we should be experiencing during the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Save the applause for the performance at the parish hall.

Francis Cardinal Arinze included applause in his response to a question on “liturgical dance”. This is taken from the Adoremus Q and A session. I believe it is very appropriate to the discussion at hand:

When the people finish dancing in the Mass and then when the dance group finishes and people clap – don’t you see what it means? It means we have enjoyed it. We come for enjoyment. Repeat. So, there is something wrong. Whenever the people clap – there is something wrong – immediately. When they clap – a dance is done and they clap.

Sorry, but, I don’t go to Mass to be entertained. I go there to pray to the Lord and join my humble prayers and sacrifice to that of the priest, mainly to offer up the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ to the Father and then to receive that same Body and Blood of our Lord. That is where the focus on the Mass should be, not on clapping and such. We need to regain what has been lost over the course of the last 40 years. No wonder people have such a poor understanding of liturgy.

 

[anamchara]

Two seconds? Yeh right!. That’s two claps, considering a clap a second. More like a minute or two. Distracting!. Just do it outside of the church. Or in the Narthex with the Nave doors closed.

A full minute or two?? ya sure, they are not that good!

I think I’ll let our priest decide on when and where clapping will take place my friend.

 

[bkovacs]

You’ve hit the nail on the head. Clapping doesn’t last two seconds. That’s a bit of a stretch. It just goes to show that the focus is not where it should be.

Someone (not sure in this thread or in another one) mentioned that nobody was clapping during Calvary. Certainly, no one was clapping during the Last Supper. The angels were rejoicing at the Resurrection. But, the human reaction was more shock, awe and amazement. Awe and amazement are what we should be experiencing during the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Save the applause for the performance at the parish hall.

Francis Cardinal Arinze included applause in his response to a question on “liturgical dance”. This is taken from the Adoremus Q and A session. I believe it is very appropriate to the discussion at hand:

Sorry, but, I don’t go to Mass to be entertained. I go there to pray to the Lord and join my humble prayers and sacrifice to that of the priest, mainly to offer up the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ to the Father and then to receive that same Body and Blood of our Lord. That is where the focus on the Mass should be, not on clapping and such. We need to regain what has been lost over the course of the last 40 years. No wonder people have such a poor understanding of liturgy.

You got that right. Did you read about the music selected for the Papal Mass in Wahington DC.
adw.org/news/news.asp?ID=536&Year=2008
Gospel Music!
Well that’s more clapping. I e-mailed the lady at the end of the article, and she told me the Holy Father approved of it. I highly doubt it!. Especially when he is talking Reform of the Reform. Probably some liberal Bishop said “go ahead the pope gives his blessing”. Like Pope Paul the VI and the NO Mass. He didn’t even read it, from what I have read!.

 

[Miles_Mariae]

Suddenly I am not so devastated by the fact that I did not obtain tickets.

 

[Cat]

You got that right. Did you read about the music selected for the Papal Mass in Wahington DC.
adw.org/news/news.asp?ID=536&Year=2008
Gospel Music!
Well that’s more clapping. I e-mailed the lady at the end of the article, and she told me the Holy Father approved of it. I highly doubt it!. Especially when he is talking Reform of the Reform. Probably some liberal Bishop said “go ahead the pope gives his blessing”. Like Pope Paul the VI and the NO Mass. He didn’t even read it, from what I have read!.

It says right in the article (link) that the Vatican approved the music choices! You don’t believe it?

Do you think that our Holy Father is so befuddled that he allows “liberal bishops” to make the decisions about the music at a huge “event” Mass in the U.S., a Mass that will make a statement to Americans about the True Church and the current state of the Papacy?

I believe that he understands the importance of music to the citizens of the U.S.–ALL the citizens, not just a minority who believe that most music in American Catholic Churches is raunchy. There is a lot of good music that is available and appropriate for Mass, and I think that the Pope’s music choices are awesome. I predict that a lot of U.S. Catholic Churches will be scrambling to order some of the pieces. (We’ve already done some of these pieces in our parish.)

I think Pope Benedict XVI is one of the most intellectual popes in history. You have stated your opinion–that he is pushed around by “liberal bishops.” Well, my opinion is that he’s on top of things and will allow no “liberal bishop” to push him around. .

 

[Sarabande]

Maybe what we should do in all of our parishes is to actually go up to the musicians and ask them if they mind the applause after mass. Speaking for myself and the rest of my colleagues, although we are NOT angered or annoyed by those who do it (and I’ve explained all of my reasonings in my previous post), we do not want applause or think it is appropriate.

Basically, I won’t applaud a well-performed or a spiritually inspiring piece of music after mass because most church musicians that I meet and work with are embarrassed by it and don’t want it, so I work with that rule for myself.

If your musicians don’t want the applause after asking, then don’t do it from now on. If they do, ask their reasons why and see if they are either ego-based or love-based. Then watch the following week to see how they react to the applause. At my childhood parish there was a group who played for mass and almost every time after mass there would be a couple of the members who’d bow after being applauded. I will not presume what was in their hearts, but that action in response to the action of applause turned it into a concert setting rather than mass. Now, I’m sure this was probably the exception.

When the congregation applauds our organist or the choir at my parish now, the applause will literaly last about 30 seconds to a minute (they are that good). And again, the organist does not want it, but we cannot have hate or anger fill our hearts because of it. We realize that many of those congregants are visitors and just aren’t used to the music that they hear and this is their way to express it. (I’ve also explained my beliefs on why that is in my previous post.)

I think one of the best compliments our organist and choir received was not through applause at all during Holy Week. A pastor who was at the Chrism mass told his congregation at his parish on Easter that he was so incredibly touched by the beauty of the music and the spirituality of words to the music “God So Loved the World” that he began to cry. Embarrassed by this as he was surrounded by a room of priests, he put his head down. But as he looked up and had to turn around for some reason, all of the priests around him were crying as well. They were all spiritually touched by it. No one applauded afterwards. No one didn’t even say anything to the musicians, until someone who was in that congregation related the story to them. To those musicians, that is better than any amount of applause ever given. For those musicians, it was a gift to know that what they produced was spiritually driven and that the people downstairs were touched in a good way.

 

[Sarabande]

You got that right. Did you read about the music selected for the Papal Mass in Wahington DC.
adw.org/news/news.asp?ID=536&Year=2008
Gospel Music!

Although I’m not crazy about Gospel music at mass, we do have to remember that there are African-American communities of Catholics whose music liturgy consists of Gospel music. The Catholic African-American churches in my city only use Gospel music for their masses. DC has a high concentration of African-Americans and it would make sense to have one of the four choirs invited to do the music for the Papal Mass in DC as a Gospel choir.

Although the Holy Father does want and is pushing for reform in the music liturgy, I also believe he realizes that there are cultures within the faith, such as the Hispanic and African-American cultures, that will have this kind of music from their cultures. It would be a different story if he was doing mass for an all-white, European background-based church.

 

[bkovacs]

Although I’m not crazy about Gospel music at mass, we do have to remember that there are African-American communities of Catholics whose music liturgy consists of Gospel music. The Catholic African-American churches in my city only use Gospel music for their masses. DC has a high concentration of African-Americans and it would make sense to have one of the four choirs invited to do the music for the Papal Mass in DC as a Gospel choir.

Although the Holy Father does want and is pushing for reform in the music liturgy, I also believe he realizes that there are cultures within the faith, such as the Hispanic and African-American cultures, that will have this kind of music from their cultures. It would be a different story if he was doing mass for an all-white, European background-based church.

Race has nothing to do with it!. African-American Roman Catholics need to realize that they are Roman Catholics, and are equally bound to the traditions of the Church. You don’t see African-Americans who are Eastern Orthodox bringing Gospel Music to the Divine Liturgy. Gospel Music is a Protestant tradition!. It did not start in the Catholic Church, and is not part of Catholic liturgical music!. Those are the facts!.

 

[Jean_Anthony]

This thread is closed. Thank you all.