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EvangelCatholic
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The comments about churches popping up all over the place * is great. It is like we have reminders of Christ all around us. Little chapels that we can seek shelter in.*
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SteveVH
Guest
The comments about churches popping up all over the place * is great. It is like we have reminders of Christ all around us. Little chapels that we can seek shelter in.*
:doh2: Yes, the Apostles would be so proud.
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AbideWithMe
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AbideWithMe
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In my mind, it does come down to how we are using our energy and time: are we really expending ourselves, energy and attention-wise, being obedient to God in the many areas we do agree on what we should do as Christians? Have we exhausted ourselves in obeying God in practical ways to serve people, since we can all agree we been commanded to do this? If God has set before us a task such as caring for the poor, and we all know with crystal clarity that He wants us to do these things, but we give the clear tasks only a little of our energy while burning off more energy elsewhere, why should we expect Him to give us light and understanding on the murkier, messier issues?
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SteveVH
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Finding areas where we can work together for the glory of God is always a good thing. We call what you describe “corporal works of mercy”. This, however, does not cover over or make up for doctrinal error.
On the flip side, even if one believes in doctrines that are free from error but fails to put flesh on the words of the gospel (feed the hungry, give water to the thirsty, clothe the naked…) he has failed in keeping God’s commands. We need the Truth and we must respond to the Truth. We need both.
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AbideWithMe
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Here’s a local news story from today, here: “Reading residents turn to a higher power to stop the violence”. wfmz.com/news-regional-berks/reading-residents-turn-to-a-higher-power-to-stop-the-violence/26929976
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EvangelCatholic
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Yes, when I see a church, regardless the denomination, a good feeling comes to me since I know Christians are nearby.
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AbideWithMe
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Yes, I agree we need both. But, respectfully, Steve, I was trying to make some different points.
We humans have a limited amount of energy and time. It’s easier, and more gratifying, IMO, to spend our limited resources of energy and time on talking about doctrines (a good to neutral use of energy), charitably trying to see another’s perspective ( a good thing), and arguing/trying to prove ourselves or our organization right (neutral to negative things), rather than rolling up our sleeves and getting dirty helping people.
But we all agree, at a minimum, that serving the least of us is one of the things closest to Christ’s heart. There’s no disagreement or room for argument there. So, are we really truly exhausting ourselves, spending our energy and attention, doing that? I believe we must do so, working together in obedience to the clear things, in every area we can, before we can expect God to give us light on how to resolve the murkier areas on which we disagree. I have a picture in my mind of people standing around arguing about things–arguing gratifies many people!***–but getting little resolved and meanwhile neglecting the least of us in need; on the other hand, Christ stands, within light (the works of mercy we all know with perfect clarity we should do), but on the edge of darkness (complex and murky intellectual issues over what is truth) beckoning us to take a step forward, following Him to care for those in need; once that is truly and energetically started with step after step, He gives us light to take the next step, and the next…which hopefully, in this life or the next or after His return, will result in full unity in perfected charity.
***I wish everybody who thinks they have a charism or calling to debate and argue also had a charism for really listening and considering another’s perspective. I’m not being a snark…I’m just wishing in all frankness, for all parties involved.
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AbideWithMe
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Me too. Around my city they are lights scattered in the darkness.
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JRKH
Guest
Very nicely put - along with your follow up post on this.
I am reminded of Jesus comment to the Pharisees about their attention to detail…
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law, justice and mercy and faith; these you ought to have done, without neglecting the others. - (Matthew 23:23)
The reason I thought of this is the balance it gives to the issue. Both things need to have their due an.
In the case you present, there is a rather broad and implicit assumption that we don’t take care of the poor, and instead devote ourselves to intellectual matters and disagreements.
As with so many things this will vary a great deal from individual to individual but I think that on the whole…we are not guilty of being out of balance in how we expend our energies. After all, the Christian community as a whole is the largest single charitable group of organizations in the world.
I certainly do not get the impression from most of our apologetic discussions here that those involved are lacking in charity either in how they present their arguments or in what they see as necessary in the Christian life. The exceptions to this are, for the most part weeded out over time whether they be Catholic or protestant.
Just some thoughts.
Peace
James
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SteveVH
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This.
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AbideWithMe
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Hi James–I’m not disagreeing with the need for both, and the need for balance. I’m still trying to express a different point, and it seems I’m not doing it too well. If you don’t mind a brief explanation of myself, I literally think in pictures, which can be very high-resolution and complex–I’m an artist by profession–and I often have hard time “downloading” my mental picture thought processes into the more cramped medium of words…so I do accept the blame for my lack of communication (although accepting the blame doesn’t keep me from eventually giving up and walking away from a conversation
).I don’t have any “broad and implicit assumption that we don’t take care of the poor”. It’s more like this, just using my particular religious predicament as an example: when I was younger, what the truth was seemed pretty clear. The older I get, for at least the last 20 years, the less clear things become. If I do say so myself
I’m a very intelligent woman, not fuzzy-minded, but that’s just made it harder for me—the more I’ve learned and listened to the other sides’ perspectives on religious issues (among Judaism vs. Christianity in particular in my case) the more I’m able to see why others believe as they do, grasping some of the nuances of their beliefs, and so the more respect I have for people with differing beliefs. I’ve also come to see that intellect and learning alone cannot resolve religious conumdrums; light has to come from God. I believe He will give me the amount of light I need to obey for the next step I take if I am obedient to the clarity I do have, but He doesn’t promise everyone any more light than that. Among the set of things I believe, the subset of “things I’m sure about” is pretty small, and the subset of “things I hope are true” is larger. I used to believe I was sure about much more. I realize some people have a large set of things they are sure about.Anyway, I think there are many people in the same boat as me, of having an totally earnest desire to seek for greater clarity on religious issues, but finding such definitive clarity is denied them over a long period of many years, despite their best efforts, study, open-mindedness and lack of attachment to a sin that might cloud their understanding. For me, I’ve come realize all I can do is walk forward in obedience into the small area of light which I do have. If I don’t spend my energy faithfully that way–doing justice, loving mercy, and walking humbly with God, I can’t complain if God doesn’t give me more light on other religious issues which I would like resolved.
For people like myself, more and more discussions, debates and arguments don’t help. We just have to trust and obey and wait.
I know I haven’t expressed myself clearly, but that’s all I’ve got for now, words-wise.
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PRmerger
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What is the correct number of denominations, HH?
You have stated that 30K is “ridiculously inflated”.
So what is the “exceedingly small” number of Christian denominations?
Does your number include this church?
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
As well as this church?
http://cbctn.org/themes/Custom/cbctn/images/logo.png
And this one, too?
http://churches.kcm.org/sites/defau...stry_image/summit_bible_church.jpg?1335636043
Independent churches, all. None of them answerable to any other entity save for their own fallible pastor’s interpretation of the Bible.
As far as the 242 Catholic churches–well, I think the mathematical answer to that is: subtract 242 from 30K and add 1. Or, simply subtract 241.
Whatever the case may be, I will consider using your “exceedingly small” number, as long as you tell me what it is, what your source is for this, and assure me that it includes all of the above, as well as every other church that answers to no one except for its own fallible pastor.
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PRmerger
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PRmerger
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You are exactly right.
That is why in the past 4 years or so I have never given a precise number, but rather say “tens of thousands”.
However, even this imprecision causes some to bristle.
I believe, like the folks who bristle at, say, the putative “wealth” of the CC, their anger is misdirected. They are actually unhappy with the CC telling them that their particular behavior is sinful.
Similarly, those who bristle at the “tens of thousands” of denominations are actually unhappy with the reality: the fruit of the Prot Ref is, indeed, very messy and complex. In fact, it is an obscenity.
It is to that that they are really bristling.
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PRmerger
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The comments about churches popping up all over the place * is great. It is like we have reminders of Christ all around us. Little chapels that we can seek shelter in.*
As long as they preach the Truth, I say
But if they are preaching, say, that the Epistles of St. Paul are satanic, I would not “seek shelter” there.
If they preach that eating grass is a means of growing closer to God, I would not “seek shelter” there.
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If their pastor proclaims that preaching in the nude is a sacrament, I would “not seek shelter” there.
http://www.iefimerida.gr/sites/default/files/naked_0.jpg
So, I don’t think it’s good that there are all sorts of churches springing up in malls and city corners all over the world.
Rather, it’s just what the devil ordered, IMHO.
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PRmerger
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JRKH
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No problem. I have the same problem many times
I’m not an artist, but I too think in “pictures” many times - or a phrase will come to mind that has all sorts of things behind it and like you I struggle to describe it in the written word.If you don’t mind a brief explanation of myself, I literally think in pictures, which can be very high-resolution and complex–I’m an artist by profession–and I often have hard time “downloading” my mental picture thought processes into the more cramped medium of words…so I do accept the blame for my lack of communication (although accepting the blame doesn’t keep me from eventually giving up and walking away from a conversation
Sorry if I sounded accusatory there - Didn’t mean to. Some of my own prejudice or maybe guilt showing perhaps.
It’s just that generalizations often don’t paint a really accurate picture - and I guess that is what I was trying to get at.
Join the club.It’s more like this, just using my particular religious predicament as an example: when I was younger, what the truth was seemed pretty clear. The older I get, for at least the last 20 years, the less clear things become. If I do say so myself
For me - I finally had to quit trying to understand so much. I broke it down to it’s most basic (see Mt 22:36-40) and have been working out from there.
Agreed
Yes - and yet sometimes such discussion (or just reading or listening to discussions can help). But the light will come in it’s own time - and not necessarily how we expect.
Thanks for sharing this. I think you did a fine job.I know I haven’t expressed myself clearly, but that’s all I’ve got for now, words-wise.
Peace
James
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Contarini
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Possibly. But then, the town I used to live in (Huntington, Indiana) had two Catholic parishes right next to each other, because the Irish and the Germans couldn’t get along. St. Mary’s was founded by people who couldn’t get along with the folks at St. Peter and Paul.
Now if non-denominational people did that, you’d cry triumphantly, “division!”
But because in this case they got permission from the bishop to do it, it’s OK.
That makes no sense to me. The Christians who go to St. Mary’s were still divided from the Christians who go to St. Peter and Paul’s.
The vast majority of Protestant divisions in modern America (this was not the case in the first few centuries of Protestantism) are like that–over personality, ethnicity, styles of worship or evangelism, etc., rather than over doctrine.
There are of course quite a lot of doctrinal divisions. But not tens of thousands.
Also, using small extreme congregations as examples isn’t helpful. All traditions have fringes.
The basic problem with your approach, though, is that Protestants don’t necessarily have a problem with this. So repeating numbers, whether accurate or inaccurate, vague or specific, is pretty pointless.
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SteveVH
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lol. Where in the world do you find this stuff?As long as they preach the Truth, I say
But if they are preaching, say, that the Epistles of St. Paul are satanic, I would not “seek shelter” there.
If they preach that eating grass is a means of growing closer to God, I would not “seek shelter” there.
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If their pastor proclaims that preaching in the nude is a sacrament, I would “not seek shelter” there.
http://www.iefimerida.gr/sites/default/files/naked_0.jpg
So, I don’t think it’s good that there are all sorts of churches springing up in malls and city corners all over the world.
Rather, it’s just what the devil ordered, IMHO.
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