Why all the Fuss on the Reformation?

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Possibly. But then, the town I used to live in (Huntington, Indiana) had two Catholic parishes right next to each other, because the Irish and the Germans couldn’t get along. St. Mary’s was founded by people who couldn’t get along with the folks at St. Peter and Paul.

Now if non-denominational people did that, you’d cry triumphantly, “division!”
Not at all. I see nothing wrong with two or three Baptist faith communities in the same area. Or two or three or more of any faith tradition that professes the same doctrine. The Catholic Church covers a multitude of cultures, pretty much every culture in the world. It is usually a matter of language differences that separate parishes and you are correct, sometimes they are standing right next to each other. But there is no doctrinal division whatsoever.
The vast majority of Protestant divisions in modern America (this was not the case in the first few centuries of Protestantism) are like that–over personality, ethnicity, styles of worship or evangelism, etc., rather than over doctrine.
Sorry, but my own experience right here in my own community belies that statement.
The basic problem with your approach, though, is that Protestants don’t necessarily have a problem with this.
Yes, and that in itself is a problem.
 
Possibly. But then, the town I used to live in (Huntington, Indiana) had two Catholic parishes right next to each other, because the Irish and the Germans couldn’t get along. St. Mary’s was founded by people who couldn’t get along with the folks at St. Peter and Paul.

Now if non-denominational people did that, you’d cry triumphantly, “division!”

But because in this case they got permission from the bishop to do it, it’s OK.

That makes no sense to me. The Christians who go to St. Mary’s were still divided from the Christians who go to St. Peter and Paul’s.

The vast majority of Protestant divisions in modern America (this was not the case in the first few centuries of Protestantism) are like that–over personality, ethnicity, styles of worship or evangelism, etc., rather than over doctrine.

There are of course quite a lot of doctrinal divisions. But not tens of thousands.

Also,** using small extreme congregations as examples isn’t helpful**. All traditions have fringes.
Its very ‘unhelpfulness’ is likely why doing so is directly against forum guidelines. Several posters in this thread like to flirt with the forum rules and flaunt various self-“researched” figures while placing all the blame on one party or several. But the truth of the matter is that even one division is too many. We are sinful creatures and so long as we are sinful, we -all of us- will continue to sin. So I think it’s best to set aside the triumphalism and boldly acknowledge what we are: sinners. the Roman Catholic Catechism puts it best:
In fact, “in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame.”
 
No problem. I have the same problem many times

I’m not an artist, but I too think in “pictures” many times - or a phrase will come to mind that has all sorts of things behind it and like you I struggle to describe it in the written word.

Sorry if I sounded accusatory there - Didn’t mean to. Some of my own prejudice or maybe guilt showing perhaps. 😊
It’s just that generalizations often don’t paint a really accurate picture - and I guess that is what I was trying to get at.

Join the club. 👍
For me - I finally had to quit trying to understand so much. I broke it down to it’s most basic (see Mt 22:36-40) and have been working out from there.

Agreed

Yes - and yet sometimes such discussion (or just reading or listening to discussions can help). But the light will come in it’s own time - and not necessarily how we expect.

Thanks for sharing this. I think you did a fine job.

Peace
James
Thanks, James.

I shouldn’t have said discussions don’t help—sometimes they can. And sometimes the hard work of being a considerate, respectful partner in dialogue is just as much an example of rolling up one’s sleeves and getting dirty as feeding the poor in our neighborhoods. But it’s the arguments and debates, when they become adversarial rather than respectful, that are useless in giving me any more light.

I originally looked at Catholicism in hopes of shedding some light upon a resolution to some of my 20 year old issues between Judaism vs. Christianity. What I’ve learned, though, over the past 5 years is that Catholicism just made my particular intellectual problems worse (it’s complicated), so that if Catholicism was my only option in being a Christian, I don’t know what I’d do. There are many other people like me–we’ve honestly tried in good faith to believe all the CC teaches and has taught to be true, and we just can’t. If the Reformation hadn’t taken place and we had nowhere else to go as Christians, what would happen to us?

I think most of us are in fact trying to be charitable, but we have a long way to go in that regard…particularly when it comes to the idea of “in humility regard others as better than yourself”. Maybe most people here really are that humble, but to me it seems like most of us struggle with regarding those on the other side as equals in intellectual integrity, let alone as our betters.
 
Possibly. But then, the town I used to live in (Huntington, Indiana) had two Catholic parishes right next to each other, because the Irish and the Germans couldn’t get along. St. Mary’s was founded by people who couldn’t get along with the folks at St. Peter and Paul.

Now if non-denominational people did that, you’d cry triumphantly, “division!”

But because in this case they got permission from the bishop to do it, it’s OK.

That makes no sense to me. The Christians who go to St. Mary’s were still divided from the Christians who go to St. Peter and Paul’s.

The vast majority of Protestant divisions in modern America (this was not the case in the first few centuries of Protestantism) are like that–over personality, ethnicity, styles of worship or evangelism, etc., rather than over doctrine.

There are of course quite a lot of doctrinal divisions. But not tens of thousands.

Also, using small extreme congregations as examples isn’t helpful. All traditions have fringes.

The basic problem with your approach, though, is that Protestants don’t necessarily have a problem with this. So repeating numbers, whether accurate or inaccurate, vague or specific, is pretty pointless.
I think Jimmy Akin addresses this Tu Quoque fallacy quite aptly here:

eboards4all.com/813467/messages/88993.html
 
Not at all. I see nothing wrong with two or three Baptist faith communities in the same area. Or two or three or more of any faith tradition that professes the same doctrine.
Then you need to rebuke your fellow-Catholics who are making a big deal about the plethora of “non-denominational” churches.

What I find dreary about these churches, in fact, is the regularity with which they agree doctrinally (because the doctrines they agree on are typically the “lowest common denominator” of evangelicalism, without the intellectual depth and spiritual discipline of the major Protestant traditions, let alone Catholicism or Orthodoxy).

Folks seem to be assuming that any two churches that are totally independent will have different doctrines. That just isn’t how it works. Of course they may, but they may not. And they are more likely not to, on the whole.
Sorry, but my own experience right here in my own community belies that statement.
So you can list all the Protestant congregations in your area and name the major doctrinal divisions that divides each of them from all the others? That’s quite a feat. . . 😛

In the tradition my family comes from, the “Wesleyan Holiness movement,” there are all kinds of small denominations with no significant doctrinal disagreements. Wesleyans, Free Methodists, and Nazarenes are the three biggest. There are differences of emphasis and tradition, but members of all three churches regard members of the others as likely to be doctrinally sound. And there are a lot more small denominations. A number of those are genuinely divided from the Big Three because they regard the Big Three as too “worldly.” But they aren’t doctrinally divided from each other for the most part. And then of course there are the United Methodists, whose more conservative members would be doctrinally comfortable in the Big Three Holiness denominations, but many of whom would definitely not.

So there are three major divisions within the Wesleyan tradition on a conservative/liberal spectrum, even though the middle group has several big organizational divisions and a bunch of smaller ones, and the most radical wing has a lot of tiny denominations and independent churches.

I put the Church of God, Anderson in a separate category because of their distinctive eschatology and their restorationist tendencies.

So just this one branch of Protestantism has several divisions, and I admit that I’ve oversimplified things a bit. Protestantism is plenty divided. You just can’t read off doctrinal divisions from organizational ones. And attacking organizational divisions in Protestantism sends the wrong message–it bewilders Protestants as to why you care about something so superficial, it is silly given the parallel organizations within Catholicism, and it reinforces the Protestant stereotype that Catholics mostly care about tight organizational structure.
Yes, and that in itself is a problem.
Agreed–if we are talking about the actual doctrinal divisions and failure to be mutually accountable, and not simply the fact that there are parallel ecclesiastical organizations.

Edwin
 
Agreed–if we are talking about the actual doctrinal divisions and failure to be mutually accountable, and not simply the fact that there are parallel ecclesiastical organizations.

Edwin
Yep. That’s exactly what we’re talking about: doctrinal divisions wrought by the Great Divorce–now to the tune of tens of thousands (although it’s probably more accurate to estimate it’s in the *hundreds *of thousands) of denominations.
 
You are exactly right.

That is why in the past 4 years or so I have never given a precise number, but rather say “tens of thousands”.

However, even this imprecision causes some to bristle.

I believe, like the folks who bristle at, say, the putative “wealth” of the CC, their anger is misdirected. They are actually unhappy with the CC telling them that their particular behavior is sinful.

Similarly, those who bristle at the “tens of thousands” of denominations are actually unhappy with the reality: the fruit of the Prot Ref is, indeed, very messy and complex. In fact, it is an obscenity.

It is to that that they are really bristling.
Incidentally, this prompts a reference to an old post on Facebook that I read by Catholic Apologist Dave Armstrong:
facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/731196140248707?stream_ref=10
THE RADICAL AND BIZARRE ALL-TOO-COMMON PROTESTANT “QUEST FOR UNCERTAINTY”
Some Protestants make such a big stinking deal about how Catholics like to have “certainty” and how silly and foolish – almost “infantile” – that supposedly is (as if it were some foreign concept in Scripture). It’s not at all! One anti-Catholic tonight even ridiculously compared this to being nearly mentally ill, or on the path to same, anyway.
I flip that canard around and talk about how many Protestants are on a “quest for uncertainty” that never ends. I have many papers along those lines, because it’s a very common theme. They glory in it. They think it’s great (rather than a tragic scandal) that they can’t figure lots of things out in Christianity and that their sects endlessly contradict each other.
They are forever searching (i.e., those who think like this). I like the treasure hunt as much as the next guy (and I joyously found the pearl of great price in 1990), but God wants us to know the truth, so we can fully live by it, not to spend our whole lives searching, as if faith and spirituality were mere philosophy or a sort of “whodunit” where the (lifelong?) search is for the fullness of Christian truth rather than the murderer.
 
Personally I don’t find the listing of thousands of denominations helpful at all. For one thing there are too many to keep track of, and as others have noted the differences are often very small.

It is more helpful for me to think of them as denominational ‘families’. But the Catholic church is not a denomination, it is the first church that others have splintered from.

The denominational families I think of are these:

The Anglican family.

The Lutheran family.

The Presbyterian/Reformed family.

The Methodist/Holiness family.

The Baptist family.

The Pentecostal family.

The Restorationist family which would include the Disciples of Christ, independent Christian churches, and the thousands of congregations calling themselves Church of Christ.

Originally I came from a Holiness church of the Nazarene mother and Church of Christ father family.
 
Personally I don’t find the listing of thousands of denominations helpful at all. For one thing there are too many to keep track of, and as others have noted the differences are often very small.

It is more helpful for me to think of them as denominational ‘families’. But the Catholic church is not a denomination, it is the first church that others have splintered from.

The denominational families I think of are these:

The Anglican family.

The Lutheran family.

The Presbyterian/Reformed family.

The Methodist/Holiness family.

The Baptist family.

The Pentecostal family.

The Restorationist family which would include the Disciples of Christ, independent Christian churches, and the thousands of congregations calling themselves Church of Christ.

Originally I came from a Holiness church of the Nazarene mother and Church of Christ father family.
What about this church? Does it answer to any of the above authorities when there is a doctrinal dispute?

http://biblechristianchurch.org/Bible_Christian_Church/About_BCC_files/History01.jpg
 
There are of course quite a lot of doctrinal divisions. But not tens of thousands.
Actually, way back in 2009 I did the math (with the help of my then 16 yr old daughter :)). Mathematically, if we only take just 17 doctrinal divisions, the possibilities are over 130,000 different permutations of doctrinal beliefs.
Originally posted by ME in 2009:
Dern! You beat me to this! I had the math problem all worked out, (courtesy of my 16 yr old daughter) using the factorial equation 17C17 and the number she came up with was a grand total of 131, 071.
Now, that of course is if we even accept that there’s really only 17 different belief systems.
As Nowak pointed out, there’s even 4 different theologies on the Rapture alone.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5714142&postcount=30
 
Because, like all divorces, the repercussions on the children are long-lasting, devastating and contrary to the unity willed by Him.
As much as I like the rhetorical turn of this answer, I find myself thinking that divorces do also provide new opportunities for self-determination and personal development, bringing about kinds of good not anticipated in the grief of the split itself.
 
I continually see threads here on the Reformation and its issues. It’s like if hubby and I had a fight thirty years ago and he keeps bringing it up, even though he and I both agreed, then, that the issues were settled. Both Catholics and Protestants (uh, western, non-Catholic Christians) have moved along from what happened 500 years ago. Why are people dealing with it as if we are frozen in time and nothing has happened since then?
Because some really, really have not moved on (not looking at Northern Ireland at all … much).
Because the past forms the foundations of the present.
Because history is just really interesting.
Because it can be more fun complaining about what their church said about our church than facing ordinary life.
Because we Protestants still protest, in as much as we are not flocking to join the Catholic Church.
Because the rhetoric of the Reformation still persists, q.v. the incomparable Jack Chick.
 
Because some really, really have not moved on (not looking at Northern Ireland at all … much).
Because the past forms the foundations of the present.
Because history is just really interesting.
Because it can be more fun complaining about what their church said about our church than facing ordinary life.
Because we Protestants still protest, in as much as we are not flocking to join the Catholic Church.
Because the rhetoric of the Reformation still persists, q.v. the incomparable Jack Chick.
I’ll take #3, as generally true.

GKC
 
I’ll take #4, as frequently true on the internet.
Does seem to happen, now and then. But for me, it’s the lure of history. My wife always smiles when I say, of a subject, “I need to know more about this”. Means more books are coming.

GKC
 
As much as I like the rhetorical turn of this answer, I find myself thinking that divorces do also provide new opportunities for self-determination and personal development, bringing about kinds of good not anticipated in the grief of the split itself.
Never for the children. Never.

That lemonade is created from lemons…well, that doesn’t change the fact that it would have been better to not have lemons in the first place.
 
As long as they preach the Truth, I say 👍

But if they are preaching, say, that the Epistles of St. Paul are satanic, I would not “seek shelter” there.

If they preach that eating grass is a means of growing closer to God, I would not “seek shelter” there.

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If their pastor proclaims that preaching in the nude is a sacrament, I would “not seek shelter” there.

http://www.iefimerida.gr/sites/default/files/naked_0.jpg

So, I don’t think it’s good that there are all sorts of churches springing up in malls and city corners all over the world.

Rather, it’s just what the devil ordered, IMHO.
lol. Where in the world do you find this stuff?
Um, well, that last photo is PRmerger herself before the “operation”. Shhhh…
 
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