Why all the Fuss on the Reformation?

[PRmerger]

However, repeating it, if it’s not factual, is not any improvement.

Firstly, what is the actual number, if it’s not “tens of thousands” of denominations?

I am not claiming to know.

If you don’t have a number, and I have a number that’s been used by numerous Catholic professional apologists, and my number is mathematically sound, logical and validated by my experience…then I must conclude that your objection to my number is based primarily on this: you really just don’t like how obscene it sounds.

I agree with you.

You ought to not like that number. At all.

It is an obscenity.

 

[PRmerger]

Those professional “apologists” use a flawed source, with a flawed methodology. Despite repeated examinations of the source by other individuals, both within and without the Christian apologetic world, their use of it is misguided at best, deceptive at worst.

I would be very, very careful here, PC. Your use of quotation marks around the word “apologist” is quite provocative–you are, essentially, calling into question whether Tim Staples, John Martignoni and our own host, the Catholic Answers are truly professional “apologists”.

And you are questioning their motivations, and posit that they may be intentionally deceiving?

I would hope that you retract the above.

But that’s not for me to decide.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

I often find myself musing whether to make the swim. When that happens, I just read some of the posts on CAF. I’m quickly reminded that the grass ain’t any greener on the other side of the Tiber.

There are real doctrinal differences that separate various groups from unity with each other. Certainly it’d be better if those individual differences were discussed one-by-one with individual communions, rather than lobbing the same tired polemics?

Yes but keep in mind that the differences between Lutherans and Catholics are not church dividing. Reunion is most definitely coming. Alleluia!

 

[Denise1957]

Yes but keep in mind that the differences between Lutherans and Catholics are not church dividing. Reunion is most definitely coming. Alleluia!

I dunno. That Lutherans cannot accept the universal jurisdiction of the Pope is a church dividing issue, I would think.

 

[benjohnson]

If you don’t have a number, and I have a number that’s been used by numerous Catholic professional apologists, and my number is mathematically sound, logical and validated by my experience…

For me, the problem isn’t the number - any number above ‘one’ indicated a problem. My problem is the attempt to ascribe this number to any particular church.

For if (from the Catholic perspective) the Lutherans are responsible for this high number of churches, then Catholics are responsible for the Lutherans.

What I’d rather talk about is how do we convince this body of churches to become more Sacramental, Liturgical, Orthodox, Evangelical and Catholic (and all the other virtues) that point more clearly to the One Church.

 

[pablope]

For me, the problem isn’t the number - any number above ‘one’ indicated a problem. My problem is the attempt to ascribe this number to any particular church.

For if (from the Catholic perspective) the Lutherans are responsible for this high number of churches, then Catholics are responsible for the Lutherans.

.

So Catholics are responsible for what the first Lutherans did-throw out the authority of the Church in favor of their own authority and church?

What I’d rather talk about is how do we convince this body of churches to become more Sacramental, Liturgical, Orthodox, Evangelical and Catholic (and all the other virtues) that point more clearly to the One Church

I just cam across this article…it is a good read…calledtocommunion.com/2011/06/st-optatus-on-schism-and-the-bishop-of-rome/

It is about St. Optatus and the donatist schism:

Later in Against the Donatists St. Optatus continues to make theologically significant references to St. Peter. He refers again to having shown that the Catholics possess the first Endowment of the Church, namely, the unique and authoritative Cathedra upon which St. Peter first sat, and which continues in the succession of bishops in Rome. He writes:

So, of the above-mentioned Endowments, the Cathedra is, as we have said, the first, which we have proved to be ours, through Peter, and which draws to itself the ANGEL — unless, perchance, you claim him for yourselves, and have him shut up somewhere or other.30

A few pages later he states this again:

For it has been proved that we are in the Holy Catholic Church, who have too the Creed of the Trinity; and it has been shown that, through the Chair of Peter which is ours — through it — the other Endowments also belong to us.31

To be in communion with the bishop occupying the Chair of St. Peter is to be in the Catholic Church, and thus to possess in some sense all the gifts Christ bestowed on His Church. In both quotations he shows that the answer to the question “Where is the Holy Catholic Church?” is this: All those in communion with the Chair of St. Peter constitute the Holy Catholic Church. In this way St. Optatus provides the divinely established means by which to determine where is the Church, who is in schism from the Church, and what the Church does and does not teach.

On that same page he writes:

So — to answer you — we have shown what is heresy, and what is schism, and which is the Holy Church, and that of this Holy Church there has been constituted a Representative, and that the Catholic Church is the Church which is scattered over the whole world (of which we amongst others are members) and that her Endowments are with her everywhere.32

According to St. Optatus, God has established a Representative of His Holy Church. What St. Optatus means by this is clear from everything that he has said up to this point. Because the Pope functions as the principle of unity by which we can know where is the Church, and which groups are in schism from the Church, he likewise functions as the Representative of the Church.33

 

[steido01]

So Catholics are responsible for what the first Lutherans did-throw out the authority of the Church in favor of their own authority and church?

If Luther was to blame for “hundreds of thousands” of denominations (which is silly in itself since Luther had nothing to do with the various non-Lutheran reform movements in his day, much less today’s), then there’s only one authority to blame for Luther: Rome.

That’s why we’ve been trying to persuade PR away from using that sort of logic. It’s fallacious at best and deceptive at worst. I’m also going to guess that’s a particularly good reason why the good Mods have determined that line of thinking has no merit. Falling to extreme polemics only agitates, provokes and elecits equally extreme responses. I pray folks who use this sort of argument understand that no one is attacking them personally; we’re simply raising calm, reasonable, logical objections to poor logic.

 

[joe371]

Hi Joe,
While I am not a branch theorist, I don’t see these as distinctly different, other than institutionally. You were Lutheran. You know we define the Church as the congregation of believers where the word is preached and the sacraments administered. These two things happen in a Catholic Church, a Lutheran Church, and many others. Christ’s Church, established in circa 33 AD, is more than institutions.

Jon

As a former Lutheran i always understood the Lutheran church to be the 16th-century product of Luther, as opposed to Jesus. Does it seem reasonable to conclude that Jesus founded the Catholic Church circa AD 33, and that all other churches, post reformation, were founded by someone other than Jesus, but nonetheless, are rightfully incorporated into the mystical Body of Christ, of which Jesus is the Head and Savior?

CCC -
"However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272
819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

 

[FathersKnowBest]

If Luther was to blame for “hundreds of thousands” of denominations (which is silly in itself since Luther had nothing to do with the various non-Lutheran reform movements in his day, much less today’s), then there’s only one authority to blame for Luther: Rome.

Luther arrogated to himself an authority. This he based on private scriptural interpretation. This is the principle that is primarily responsible for the proliferation of so many different denominations and beliefs.

"Luther had strangely assumed that those who followed him into revolt would use their right of private judgment only to affirm their entire agreement with his own opinions, for which he claimed the sanction of an inspiration received from God that equaled him with the Prophets of old. But he was soon to learn that his followers attached as high a value to their own interpretations of the Bible as he did to his, and were quite prepared to act upon their own conclusions instead of upon his. The result was that as early as the beginning of 1525 – only eight years after he first propounded his heresies – we find him acknowledging, in his “Letter to the Christians of Antwerp” (de Wette, III, 61), that “there are as many sects and creeds in Germany as heads. One will have no baptism; another denies the sacrament, another asserts that there is another world between this and the last day, some teach that Christ is not God, some say this, some say that. No lout is so boorish but, if a fancy enters his head, he must think that the Holy Ghost has entered into him, and that he is to be a prophet”.

That’s why we’ve been trying to persuade PR away from using that sort of logic. It’s fallacious at best and deceptive at worst.

Not really. It’s direct at worst and painfully truthful at best.

Sometimes the hard truth, directly stated, is called for. Oftentimes it’s not, out of charity, but at times this charity is a false charity.

 

[benjohnson]

So Catholics are responsible for what the first Lutherans did-throw out the authority of the Church in favor of their own authority and church?

That would be the logical conclusion if you have these predicates:

1. Lutherans are the ‘parents’ of the various Protestant churches.
2. Lutherans are responsible for them.
3. Lutherans split off from Catholics.

 

[PRmerger]

For me, the problem isn’t the number - any number above ‘one’ indicated a problem.

True, dat.

My problem is the attempt to ascribe this number to any particular church.

For if (from the Catholic perspective) the Lutherans are responsible for this high number of churches, then Catholics are responsible for the Lutherans.

No one ought to ascribe this number to the Lutheran church, but rather to the paradigm that one can divorce herself from one’s church if one does not agree with its doctrine.

And to the paradigm that one doesn’t need an authority to interpret Scripture.

And to the paradigm that the Bible Alone is all we need to determine doctrine.

And to the paradigm that we don’t need a pope or a magisterium to be the final arbiter of God’s revelation.

All of that is what has caused the obscenity of tens of thousands of denominations.

 

[Porknpie]

For Protestants one of the loudest lessons of history is that Catholic leadership simply cannot be trusted. Ever. For anything. Period. .

Then you’ll have to throw your bible away because you can not trust that what you are reading is the inspired and inerrant written Word of God.

 

[Porknpie]

Yes, quite symbolic , this single loaf, discerning the Body of Christ (the “ecclesia”), rich and poor, hungry or well fed.
All persuasions of the definition of “church” believe this.

And few of those 10,000 plus persuasions believe in a proper Eucharist.

“See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.” Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrneans, 8:2 (c. A.D. 110).

St Augustine relates this Catholic Church with a succession of Priests. Even then, there were those who were wanting to call themselves part of the Catholic Church. Why? Because it is the Church that Christ himself established.

“For in the Catholic Church, not to speak of the purest wisdom, to the knowledge of which a few spiritual, men attain in this life…–not to speak of this wisdom, which you do not believe to be in the Catholic Church, there are many other things which most justly keep me in her bosom. The consent of peoples and nations…so does her authority…the succession of priests…[a]nd so, lastly, does the name itself of Catholic, which, not without reason, amid so many heresies, the Church has thus retained; so that, though all heretics wish to be called Catholics, yet when a stranger asks where the Catholic Church meets, no heretic will venture to point to his own chapel or house. Such then in number and importance are the precious ties belonging to the Christian name which keep a believer in the Catholic Church…Now if the truth is so clearly proved as to leave no possibility of doubt, it must be set before all the things that keep me in the Catholic Church…For my part, I should not believe the gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church…for it was through the Catholics that I got my faith in it; and so, whatever you bring from the gospel will no longer have any weight with me. Wherefore, if no clear proof of the apostleship of Manichaeus is found in the gospel, I will believe the Catholics rather than you.” Augustine, Against the Epistle of Manichaeus, 4:5,5:6 (A.D 397).

 

[FathersKnowBest]

No one ought to ascribe this number to the Lutheran church, but rather to the paradigm that one can divorce herself from one’s church if one does not agree with its doctrine.

And to the paradigm that one doesn’t need an authority to interpret Scripture.

And to the paradigm that the Bible Alone is all we need to determine doctrine.

And to the paradigm that we don’t need a pope or a magisterium to be the final arbiter of God’s revelation.

All of that is what has caused the obscenity of tens of thousands of denominations.

Egg-zactly.

 

[guanophore]

For me, the problem isn’t the number - any number above ‘one’ indicated a problem.

This is well said

For if (from the Catholic perspective) the Lutherans are responsible for this high number of churches, then Catholics are responsible for the Lutherans.

To a great extent I think this is true. Catholics acting badly have been responsible for a great deal of wounds to unity, including the roots of the Reformation, and the Schism with the East. Some of it has been language, culture, and misunderstanding, but a substantial amount can be attributed to pride, greed, lust for power, etc, etc. and poor catechesis.

What I’d rather talk about is how do we convince this body of churches to become more Sacramental, Liturgical, Orthodox, Evangelical and Catholic (and all the other virtues) that point more clearly to the One Church.

Yes, this is a much better focus, is it not? We are all responsible for creating and maintining unity in the Body, being of one mind, and one Spirit.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Then you’ll have to throw your bible away because you can not trust that what you are reading is the inspired and inerrant written Word of God.

Word.

As opposed to Protestant leadership…

 

[Contarini]

As a former Lutheran i always understood the Lutheran church to be the 16th-century product of Luther, as opposed to Jesus. Does it seem reasonable to conclude that Jesus founded the Catholic Church circa AD 33, and that all other churches, post reformation, were founded by someone other than Jesus, but nonetheless, are rightfully incorporated into the mystical Body of Christ, of which Jesus is the Head and Savior?

CCC -
"However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272
819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

Yes, of course it’s reasonable, and the CCC passage you quote demonstrates this.

Edwin

 

[Tomyris]

Then you’ll have to throw your bible away because you can not trust that what you are reading is the inspired and inerrant written Word of God.

Wrong.

While we are at it, let’s discuss Purgatory, Eucharist, papal authority, Mary and anything else we can think of.

The Church can be helpful in pointing us in the right direction, but in the end we know it is God’s Word because He tells us.

Parallels with:

The Church can help us understand that it is the Body of Christ, but in the end we know it is because He tells us.

Your final authority is NOT the Church, it is God. God has protected His Word despite men, and you should not praise men for the direct act of God and take glory from Him and give it to mere men.

I know it is His Word because He has convinced me it is, not because any human has convinced me it is. Many hear the Gospel but He does not work in the hearts of all.

I guess we could discuss the two wills of God while we are at it. And tongues, the rapture, holding hands during the Our Father, female altar servers, celibacy, end times in general and legalism and the meaning of the sacraments while we are at it.

Anyone for OSAS? Is Francis the last Pope? Maybe we are running out of conversation and we need something to talk about? What do you think about the new fall fashions? I am hoping leggings go away because some really people really are overly explicit in their proportions. What is a proper Christian hemline? Should wallpaper be used in a carpeted room? Should you always play classical music while eating spaghetti? Where does the salad fork belong, really, when you are setting the table?

 

[Tomyris]

If more than one church is a scandal the Catholic Church should set the example and immediately reunite with the Orthodox. How’s that?

 

[PRmerger]

For Protestants one of the loudest lessons of history is that Catholic leadership simply cannot be trusted. Ever. For anything. Period.

Then you’ll have to throw your bible away because you can not trust that what you are reading is the inspired and inerrant written Word of God.

Wrong.

Can you please explain, then, how you can know that the Epistle to the Hebrews is inspired if the “Catholic leadership simply cannot be trusted. Ever. For anything. Period”?

For that is the ONLY way you can know that it is theopneustos, Tomy. The ONLY way. Period.