Why all the Fuss on the Reformation?

[Tomyris]

Can you please explain, then, how you can know that the Epistle to the Hebrews is inspired if the “Catholic leadership simply cannot be trusted. Ever. For anything. Period”?

For that is the ONLY way you can know that it is theopneustos, Tomy. The ONLY way. Period.

Wrong.

We believe the Bible is God’s Word because He says it is - not because the Catholic Church says it is.

To be fair, not all Protestants make that argument. The Reformed do, however. That does not leave out a role for the church, but in the end it is God Himself Who convinces us that the Bible is His Word.

You think the Bible is His Word because the Church says it is? That’s the FINAL reason? God the Holy Spirit never speaks to you, never whispers, never convicts, never acts in your life, except strictly through the sacraments and the homily? Grace is only delivered through the priest? God is not allowed to do anything? I don’t think so. I think in the end you will realize that you believe Hebrews is God’s Word because He convinced you it is, not because anyone else says it is. The Church may point, may teach, etc., but in the end it is God acting to convince you.

 

[PRmerger]

If more than one church is a scandal the Catholic Church should set the example and immediately reunite with the Orthodox. How’s that?

'Tis true indeed that it is a scandal to have the Catholic and Orthodox churches in schism.

This is a product of sinfulness of men. Not of doctrinal divergence. Nor of the idea that we can read the Scriptures and come to our own doctrines based on our own personal interpetations of these Scriptures. It is because of that that we have tens of thousands of Christian denominations.

Clearly, the existence of tens of thousands of different denominations limns the fact that one simply cannot read the Bible and come to an understanding of what doctrines are contained therein.

One needs the lens of the CC for that.

 

[Tomyris]

That’s a better argument IMHO than “well, the Church used to be trustworthy, but now is not.” I think what I outlined was God’s plan from the get-go. Or that we used to do Scripture and Tradition, but we can’t trust Tradition, so now all we have is Scripture.

I don’t exclude a role for the Church in this.

 

[PRmerger]

Wrong.

We believe the Bible is God’s Word because He says it is - not because the Catholic Church says it is.

Well, that’s very Catholic to say.

And unless you believe that the Bible floated down from heaven, leatherbound and intact, then you have to agree that God used MEN to say “This is inspired. This is not”.

 

[Tomyris]

'Tis true indeed that it is a scandal to have the Catholic and Orthodox churches in schism.

This is a product of sinfulness of men. Not of doctrinal divergence. Nor of the idea that we can read the Scriptures and come to our own doctrines based on our own personal interpetations of these Scriptures. It is because of that that we have tens of thousands of Christian denominations.

Clearly, the existence of tens of thousands of different denominations limns the fact that one simply cannot read the Bible and come to an understanding of what doctrines are contained therein.

One needs the lens of the CC for that.

‘Limns’: I like that. I had to look it up. I am planning to use it a lot.

Have you read any Orthodox Christians’ opinions on what the Catholic Church says about how close you are in doctrine? Usually they emphasize profound differences.

I don’t think having x number of churches can be blamed squarely on SS. The Old Catholics split for other reasons, despite its lack. Do you blame the OO/Catholic split and the Orthodox/Catholic splits on SS? A central authority really hasn’t helped, has it? I mean there was a pope in place at the time of the Reformation, and it seems to me Leo X and his following popes made things worse. I think there was one pope who could have straightened things out, but rumor has it the cardinals poisoned him.

I think, somewhere, you missed the comment someone made about how SS lies properly at the level of the church, not at the level of the individual (although there are some who insist on their own beliefs, on both sides of the Tiber).

 

[PRmerger]

You think the Bible is His Word because the Church says it is? That’s the FINAL reason? God the Holy Spirit never speaks to you, never whispers, never convicts, never acts in your life, except strictly through the sacraments and the homily? Grace is only delivered through the priest? God is not allowed to do anything? I don’t think so. I think in the end you will realize that you believe Hebrews is God’s Word because He convinced you it is, not because anyone else says it is. The Church may point, may teach, etc., but in the end it is God acting to convince you.

This is a curious position.

One can know what books are inspired because God whispers that to Christians?

Somehow, without any other authority, a Christian can read “My breath is offensive to my wife” and know, through the Holy Spirit, that this is an inspired verse?

 

[Tomyris]

Well, that’s very Catholic to say.

And unless you believe that the Bible floated down from heaven, leatherbound and intact, then you have to agree that God used MEN to say “This is inspired. This is not”.

With what implication? People say all kinds of things. People believe all kinds of things.

For example, someone may hear 10,000 sermons on adultery and they all fall on deaf ears. Then God works, and they are convicted of sin. Did men preach? Yes. Did God use the preaching? Yes. But the faith was from God that adultery was a sin. It was not an act of man. Likewise in the end we believe the Bible is the Word of God not because anyone says it is (though they should) but because He does. To us.

 

[Tomyris]

This is a curious position.

One can know what books are inspired because God whispers that to Christians?

Somehow, without any other authority, a Christian can read “My breath is offensive to my wife” and know, through the Holy Spirit, that this is an inspired verse?

I guess God has no authority?

I think, typically, it is on an overall level, rather than a verse by verse or word by word level: “I have a lot of trouble with the word “the” in a certain verse in the Book of Numbers.”

It is not at all curious. God has authority. God speaks. When He speaks, we should listen.

What is the problem here? You don’t believe God ever speaks to anyone? Moves on anyone? Convicts us of sin? Gives us hope and faith? Life itself?

 

[benhur]

Then you’ll have to throw your bible away because you can not trust that what you are reading is the inspired and inerrant written Word of God.

Now,now, even the second vatican said be careful here for we are to say God gave us the bible. What is next, the CC gave us Jesus ? See what the council was trying to get at ? Who really gets the credit, and to be trusted ? That (He) is failure proof and universal (catholic)

 

[Annie39]

Now,now, even the second vatican said be careful here for we are to say God gave us the bible. What is next, the CC gave us Jesus ? See what the council was trying to get at ? Who really gets the credit, and to be trusted ? That (He) is failure proof and universal (catholic)

I have not been following this thread but I clicked on it tonight for some reason and your post caught my eye. If this question or one like it was asked I’m sorry. But you say that God gave us the bible and I wonder in what manor He did that.

Annie

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Wrong.

We believe the Bible is God’s Word because He says it is -

Can you please tell me who did He say it to? And when and how?

 

[PRmerger]

Now,now, even the second vatican said be careful here for we are to say God gave us the bible.

How do you think God did this?

Did it come floating down from heaven on wings of a dove, leather bound (and in KJV)?

Or did God use people? Men, specifically? Catholic men, to be more specific? Catholic bishops, to be ultra-specific?

 

[benhur]

I have not been following this thread but I clicked on it tonight for some reason and your post caught my eye. If this question or one like it was asked I’m sorry. But you say that God gave us the bible and I wonder in what manor He did that.

Annie

Have to check what the council said,… but all credit takers please step forward.

 

[joe371]

Yes, of course it’s reasonable, and the CCC passage you quote demonstrates this.

Edwin

 

[Porknpie]

Wrong.

Tomyris,

You can say wrong all you want but …

Catholic bishops at the Council of Rome, in 382 ad, first compiled the canon of scripture, 73 books in total. Affirmed by the Synod of Hippo in 393. The Synod of Carthage in 397. And later, the Synod of Carthage II, the Council of Florence and the Council of Trent …

Everyone of them, guided to all truth by the Holy Spirit, determined that there were 73 books in the bible.

Why the fuss? Someone then decided 1,100 years after the Council of Rome that 73 books were not inspired. That only 66 books were inspired. What’s interesting here is that even the original King James Bible of 1611 had 73 books.

While we are at it, let’s discuss Purgatory, Eucharist, papal authority, Mary and anything else we can think of.

would rather first hear why you would want a bible with only 66 books?

The Church can be helpful in pointing us in the right direction, but in the end we know it is God’s Word because He tells us.

He does … he guided his Church to know that there are 73 books in the bible.

Your final authority is NOT the Church, it is God.

Yet Christ promised to lead his Church to all Truth. A good reason to believe that God’s written Word has 73 books.

God has protected His Word despite men,

and some men have removed 7 books from his Word.

I know it is His Word because He has convinced me it is, not because any human has convinced me it is.

And how did he do this? How did he lead you to believe that the bible has only 66 books?

I have trust that you love the Written Word of God Tomyris. Catholics love the bible. We hear four separate scripture passages at every Sunday Mass. But you’re following a man-made error: that the Written Word of God only has 66 books. Just wish you had all of His Word, not most of it.

PnP

 

[benhur]

How do you think God did this?

Did it come floating down from heaven on wings of a dove, leather bound (and in KJV)?

Or did God use people? Men, specifically? Catholic men, to be more specific? Catholic bishops, to be ultra-specific?

Yes, the Corinthians, and Galatians, and Philippians and Colossians and Romans and Jews all did not trust but waited a few hundred years for bishop/councilar approval of their received letters…not.

 

[joe371]

Yes, the Corinthians, and Galatians, and Philippians and Colossians and Romans and Jews all did not trust but waited a few hundred years for bishop/councilar approval of their received letters…not.

The Corinthians, and Galatians, and Philippians and Colossians and Romans and Jews, all had the codified Bible that you and I have today? All the books in the NT today were included in the Bible in the first century?

Now,now, even the second vatican said be careful here for we are to say God gave us the bible.

Through which church, in the world today did God give the world the Holy Bible?

What is next, the CC gave us Jesus?

LOL…Jesus gave us His Catholic church, in fulfilment of the scriptures. .

See what the council was trying to get at ? Who really gets the credit, and to be trusted ? That (He) is failure proof and universal (catholic)

Like you said, God gets the credit and God did this via His Catholic Church, and we can trust the decisions of the Catholic Church because we have Gods word that states that the Holy Spirit will forever guide His Church into all truth.

 

[PRmerger]

Yes, the Corinthians, and Galatians, and Philippians and Colossians and Romans and Jews all did not trust but waited a few hundred years for bishop/councilar approval of their received letters…not.

You still haven’t answered the question, ben.

God gave us the Bible–on that, we are agreed.

But how did he do this again? Could you offer the process of how you think the Christians received this codex?

Catholics have an answer to this.

I’m not sure what your answer is. Again: HOW did God give us the Bible? If it didn’t come floating down from heaven via the Holy Spirit, then…HOW?

 

[benhur]

Tomyris,
Catholic bishops at the Council of Rome, in 382 ad, first compiled the canon of scripture, 73 books in total. Affirmed by the Synod of Hippo in 393. The Synod of Carthage in 397. And later, the Synod of Carthage II, the Council of Florence and the Council of Trent …

Actually Trent was the more official, binding statement (ecumenical) , not the previous councils. Pope Gregory did not go along with apocryphal books I have been told. Before Trent it was ok to have your opinion of 66 books or 72 or 73.

 

[joe371]

Tomyris;12182001]Wrong.

While we are at it, let’s discuss Purgatory, Eucharist, papal authority, Mary and anything else we can think of.

The Church can be helpful in pointing us in the right direction, but in the end we know it is God’s Word because He tells us.

Where does Gods word identify the table of Contents? That was put there by the Catholic Church, much to my surprise as a former non-Catholic. Gods word is awesome because it is from God. However, in no way does Gods word lead to doctrinal truth, outside Gods church, the pillar and foundation of truth, where the manifold wisdom of God can be found, as per scripture. Gods word via individual interpretation, promotes division, not unity, as can be seen in the world today. Agree, or disagree, it is a fact that people have been starting new churches for the past 500 years, based on their interpretation and corresponding beliefs. This cannot be the work of the Holy Spirit Who is the spirit of truth, not division.