Why all the Fuss on the Reformation?

[benhur]

Yes, we have unity by virtue of our mutual faith in Christ, but what the Apostles meant by “we” in speaking about the Chruch is not the same as what you are saying here. They were talking about those validly ordained in unity with the successor of Peter.

I was referring to 1John 2:20, “Ye have an unction from the Holy One and ye know all things”. vs 18, and 1 says the “ye” is “little children”. Was John writing only to “successors” ? This is at the crux of many reformations, the institutionalizing and "qualifying’ of illumination

The fact that Jesus established a priesthood does not return the veil that was rent. The new priesthood, though foreshadowed by the old, is of a different order.

Indeed, a much different order. That is why the OT "priest " word is not used for NT church offices. Priest as a middle man is abolished. A bishop,presbyter does not have totally same function as OT priest, esp in sacrifices and sin offering. Again at the heart of much reformation.

You have a misunderstanding about the priesthood in condemning it as “respecter of persons”. Everyone has gifts and callling. The fact that one has one gift, and another a different gift does not mean that one is more “respectable” than anothoer. The priesthood is a life of service to which not everyone is called. The same can be said of motherhood.

No problem with giftings and church offices, just in insisting mediating priesthood as opposed to original intent of a “nation of priests”. Shepherd fine. Priest not so. A priest is a mediator for sin and because of sin . Israel sinned and hence God ordered only one tribe for that privilege, instead all twelve as intended.

And by what authority do you make this assessment?

Again, at the heart of reformation, this institutionalizing Truth by the asking of what authority does one pretend to speak truth. Someone we know was often asked that also, by what authority.

Should your judgment on this point have more value to us than that of Christ, who teaches us that He is a priest after the order of Melchizedech?

That is right. And who is in us ? What mind (whose) are we to have ? How else could we be a royal priesthood ? A priesthood who can not do such and such ( commemorate communion, forgive, bind etc). Melchizedech was quite non-instsitutional, before the law and ritual and offices.

There were some things spoken only to the ordained and for their successors. Why do you think that nothing of the 40 days after the resurrection are recorded?

Who decides what things were just for them and not us ? Sounds intstitutional ,even a bit gnostic. Of course some things were for apostles and their mission. Any christian is a “successor” and a living stone built upon the twelve and others right on up to us.

This does not “take way” anything from the laity, who need to be equipped by them for the work of the ministry.

That is right, to be just like the shepherd, to be disciples, imitators yet within giftings.

 

[Charley1444]

In searching for TRUTH we have to put our faith where we find it. The Reformation was more about being contrary to the TRUTH in the Catholic Church. Thus the Reformers left behind them a great deal of that TRUTH and settled only partial truth. Personally I hate to see those who put their faith in the Reformation settling for partial TRUTH when they could put it in the fullness of TRUTH found in the Catholic Church.

 

[guanophore]

All of us look back to the original deposit of faith. The desire of the Reformed is to reclaim that, to cut away what was not there.

What do you think is the most effective way to do this?

Right, text says “gospel”, as per ministry of Paul. You can not exclude that Paul did not baptize gentiles as part of his gospel.

You think that Paul did not baptize Gentiles as part of his Gospel?

You can not exclude that he had problems with Jews because of this, per other texts.

You mean, Paul did not circumcise the Gentiles? Yes, he certainly did have problems with the Jews over that.

Again gospel covers a bit of details therefore you can no deny nor can i prove the circumcision problem in this text , that is why it is called an interpretation, given all other writ.

I can certainly concede the point that circumcision was part of the reason Paul went to Jerusalem to consult the “pillars”.

 

[guanophore]

I don’t understand the first sentence. OTOH, at one time I had the beginnings of an electronic data base to sort and locate the books not on shelves. Back in the DOS days. Had 7 sortable fields to locate author, title, general subject, more specific subject, location, comment and something else I forget. Had entered maybe 4-5 thousand books, which, at the time, was possibly 25% of the total. A guess.

I will get on that as quickly as may be. You wait here, don’t go to sleep until I finish.

Ordered a book today, on a topic touched on in this thread.

GKC

Would you be so kind as to will your library to me when you no longer need it?

I will start building a climate controlled multiplex so it will be ready.

 

[guanophore]

Because you said that Christ sent only His Apostles without money or bags, when He actually sent more (70) than the 12 in this event (Luke 10).

And I doubt guano “poorly” explains the Catholic Faith to others. He is steadfast in the faith.

I thank you for the compliment, but really the insult goes to St. Paul, since it was his passage to which she was responding.

 

[GKC]

Would you be so kind as to will your library to me when you no longer need it?

I will start building a climate controlled multiplex so it will be ready.

I would certainly make provision in the will.

But there are those kids of mine. The SIL likes to wander around picking up various goodies and asking if he can have it. When told no, he shrugs, “I’ll get it, in time”.

More seriously, I’ve begun placing index cards, in the more marketable/collectible items, describing them in booksellers jargon, and making a price estimate. In case my wife must turn to that source, for income. In time.

GKC

 

[JRKH]

Let’s see Paul was taught by Christ himself, laid hands on , did everything proper, had signs and wonders etc . What possibly could make him, and more importantly, others, think he was running in vain ?

I guess you would have to ask Paul that question. The purpose of my post was to simply lay out what Scripture says…and not add anything to it.

One could ask something similar in connection with the passage in Acts 15…Since Paul was taught by Christ himself, laid hands on, did everything proper, and signs and wonders, Why was he unable to resolve the dispute with the Judaizers in Antioch? Why was there need for a council?

The most important point in all of this is that Paul, Peter, James John and the others…all sought to be on the same page…to be one…to support one another in the Truth…and that meant communication, humility and submission, one to the other, along with discussion debate and resolution of issues.
In short - it meant being doctrinally unified…teaching the same thing and coming together to work out any differences as ONE ekklesia - - - not a bunch of variously independent ekklesia.
This is what NT Scripture points to repeatedly and this is (IMHO) where the Protestant model, as it has evolved, fails the test of it’s own doctrine of SS.

Peace
James

 

[AbideWithMe]

I would certainly make provision in the will.

But there are those kids of mine. The SIL likes to wander around picking up various goodies and asking if he can have it. When told no, he shrugs, “I’ll get it, in time”.

More seriously, I’ve begun placing index cards, in the more marketable/collectible items, describing them in booksellers jargon, and making a price estimate. In case my wife must turn to that source, for income. In time.

GKC

Dear Book Collecting People—Art Materials Girl, on a precautionary note, wants to remind everyone to use only acid-free index cards and page markers inside their valuable books, as the acid from ordinary paper cards can affect pages with which they come in contact over time. Some non-paper materials such as some acetates also contain acid, but AMG can never remember which ones are safe or not without looking it up.

 

[GKC]

Dear Book Collecting People—Art Materials Girl, on a precautionary note, wants to remind everyone to use only acid-free index cards and page markers inside their valuable books, as the acid from ordinary paper cards can affect pages with which they come in contact over time. Some non-paper materials such as some acetates also contain acid, but AMG can never remember which ones are safe or not without looking it up.

Highly Experienced Bibliophile agrees. Newspaper clippings found in collected books prove the point. High wood pulp content bad. Most rag content paper, while not of archival quality, less problematic

GKC

 

[JonNC]

Because you said that Christ sent only His Apostles without money or bags, when He actually sent more (70) than the 12 in this event (Luke 10).

And I doubt guano “poorly” explains the Catholic Faith to others. He is steadfast in the faith.

Guan is one of the best here, in explaining the Catholic faith.

Jon

 

[PRmerger]

Well, I may re-consider excluding it.

If I could just see what the canon law was that the pope was following…

Helloooooo…anyone?

Can anyone show what canon law the pope was obeying when he sanctioned the kidnapping of that little boy?

 

[GKC]

Helloooooo…anyone?

Can anyone show what canon law the pope was obeying when he sanctioned the kidnapping of that little boy?

Since I’m the one (and logically so) who said I’d look into it, and you are not reading my posts, getting an answer to you will be problematic, but so it goes.

For any others here, I ordered Kretzer’s book on the Mortara case yesterday. May take a week +/- to arrive, longer to digest. Meanwhile, I’m on p. 148 of his other book I had (runs to 355 pages, with end material; he footnotes adequately for a popular level, semi-scholarly book) focused on relations between the Jews and the Papacy/Church, roughly from late 18th century, to the Lateran treaty, more or less. I can suspect what the story will be in the Mortara book.

Patience. I’ve already stopped reading in my current pre-WWII book (at p.190) to look into this stuff. Which actually forms only a very minor interest area for me; no more than 6-7 books on the general subject on hand.

And I have the new Kratman SF tempting me.

GKC

 

[guanophore]

Guan is one of the best here, in explaining the Catholic faith.

Jon

I am greatly honored by your confidence.:bowdown:

Just as you are of your faith. I had to go back through this thread to read all your posts, which I found enriching, but not so much as your prayers and striving for unity, which brings great blessing to the One Church, as well as to myself.

 

[guanophore]

Helloooooo…anyone?

Can anyone show what canon law the pope was obeying when he sanctioned the kidnapping of that little boy?

No but the point was ceded.

Now we are on to fussing over other things.

 

[AbideWithMe]

Highly Experienced Bibliophile agrees. Newspaper clippings found in collected books prove the point. High wood pulp content bad. Most rag content paper, while not of archival quality, less problematic

GKC

I figured a Highly Experienced Bibliophile should know that, but since we former Art Conservationist Employees don’t know how much that is general knowledge among bibliophiles, I got a little worried and thought I’d mention it for any book collecting folk hanging around.

Yup about rag content. Some newer lignin-based paper is supposed to be buffered to prevent acid problems, but I’m a bit suspicious of it, myself.

 

[GKC]

No but the point was ceded.

Now we are on to fussing over other things.

No, the point seemed to be what authority was behind the action in the Mortara case. And the answer, I think, is going to be the same generic authority that was behind other such cases, as found in the literature, and also underlying other aspects of the life of the Jews in the Papal states, during this period.

But if all interest is satisfied, let me know. I got 3 more books on the pre-WWII period in line. And there’s that Kratman.

GKC

 

[GKC]

I figured a Highly Experienced Bibliophile should know that, but since we former Art Conservationist Employees don’t know how much that is general knowledge among bibliophiles, I got a little worried and thought I’d mention it for any book collecting folk hanging around.

Yup about rag content. Some newer lignin-based paper is supposed to be buffered to prevent acid problems, but I’m a bit suspicious of it, myself.

For the most part, it’s an academic issue for me. Either the books would be disposed of, card removed, or they would not be, and the widow deceased, in some few years.

But I don’t put newsprint in books of possible value, and spreading the word is good.

GKC

 

[AbideWithMe]

Helloooooo…anyone?

Can anyone show what canon law the pope was obeying when he sanctioned the kidnapping of that little boy?

No but the point was ceded.

Now we are on to fussing over other things.

PRmerger—Now I’m confused…Tomyris asked that we leave that subject and get on topic, so I didn’t post quotes from the CAF Ask the Apologist entries on the Mortara affair. GKC will be reading Kretzer’s book at some point.

Guanophore—Tomyris can’t concede a point she never made. I’m the one who said Pope Pius IX was “following the rules” which applied at the time, and which were based on an interpretation of a teaching and not merely on secular concerns, in his decision regarding Edgardo Mortara.

Although Tomyris sometimes holds a gastronomically indiscriminate Kraken under the sway of her cyber pen in the Clubhouse, I will bravely defy her request and post the links to the AAA answers during some other break in my day.

 

[PRmerger]

PRmerger—Now I’m confused…Tomyris asked that we leave that subject and get on topic, so I didn’t post quotes from the CAF Ask the Apologist entries on the Mortara affair. GKC will be reading Kretzer’s book at some point.

Guanophore—Tomyris can’t concede a point she never made. I’m the one who said Pope Pius IX was “following the rules” which applied at the time, and which were based on an interpretation of a teaching and not merely on secular concerns, in his decision regarding Edgardo Mortara.

Although Tomyris sometimes holds a gastronomically indiscriminate Kraken under the sway of her cyber pen in the Clubhouse, I will bravely defy her request and post the links to the AAA answers during some other break in my day.

Ok.

So if the point wasn’t ceded, then can you please post the rule that the pope was obeying in sanctioning the kidnapping of that little boy?

Thanks.

 

[GKC]

PRmerger—Now I’m confused…Tomyris asked that we leave that subject and get on topic, so I didn’t post quotes from the CAF Ask the Apologist entries on the Mortara affair. GKC will be reading Kretzer’s book at some point.

Guanophore—Tomyris can’t concede a point she never made. I’m the one who said Pope Pius IX was “following the rules” which applied at the time, and which were based on an interpretation of a teaching and not merely on secular concerns, in his decision regarding Edgardo Mortara.

Although Tomyris sometimes holds a gastronomically indiscriminate Kraken under the sway of her cyber pen in the Clubhouse, I will bravely defy her request and post the links to the AAA answers during some other break in my day.

I’ve now read those AAA posts. Immediate comment: Hmmm.

But someone take a vote. I’m glad to get the book, it is a small itch I can scratch, connects with several primary reading and collecting areas. But I’m not interested in diverting my on-going reading scheme unless there is a reason.

GKC