Why all the Fuss on the Reformation?

[Tomyris]

Just up be clear – you’re saying you know Christ in the same way the Apostles knew Christ?

No. That would be impossible.

When the apostles walked with Christ those three years, they did not have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them, did they? They were in the middle of what we can reflect and look back on (as they did, later, when they wrote what became the New Testament).

I don’t have the Aramaic or Greek cultural reference, I did not grow up in that time, and there are other reasons I cannot claim my relationship with Christ is the same. A certain lack of an apostolic call that colored their whole existence, for example.

Have you read “Practicing the Presence of God” by Brother Lawrence?

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Humor is always difficult in this Forum. I just looked at what you posted and thought what I thought and then said it. I was expecting much better from you, as you have posted well at times.

:tiphat:

How we discern truth is at the heart of this thread. If you struck a nerve, there it is, because everyone wants to talk about what is non-essential instead of what is essential.

Ah! You missed the reference to this very subject in my scenario.

The Church that knows there are 4 lights but thinks only 2 of them are essential. That was a reference not only to sacraments but to doctrine and tradition as well.

For me, unity is of the utmost importance (But not at the sake of sacrificing truth). We (Notice I said we) are doing a horrible job at showing a unified front to the world as Christians. We get together for this and that, but in general we fight too much and for the most part, away from some Churches - all there is out there is an anarchistic system of Christianity. Post-Christianity if you’d rather.

I can only imagine the Reformers twisting in their graves at what is happening today.

Allow me to put on my Catholic Apologist hat and tell you what you should be attempting.

1. All truth is Catholic truth. We only know truth because only the Catholic truth really has a handle on truth. If you want to know truth, you must learn to know it through the Church, because that is an essential of the Church’s business. As the Bride of Christ the Church is married to truth and knows it intimately.
2. Once you accept #1, the idea of the authority of the CC comes naturally and docilely…
3. Once you accept #2, all the teachings of the Church are naturally and docilely accepted.

People are attempting this backwards, thinking that if someone accepts #3 point by point they will accept @2, and #1 they can fuggitaboutit.

#1 is where the battle ought to be fought.

Docilely!? Oh no, my friend. You need to have a talk with my Priest and the people at my parish and diocese, lol. Did I mention that I have not been perfected in the gift of patience?

Not docile at all, but respectful, yes. I ask more questions than the average non-catholic poster here. And I am a serious pain too… I do my research. So a pat in the back and the normal parroting lines do nothing for me, actually they only agitate me more, lol.

On a separate note, there is a flip side to what you said.

Posters that don’t recognize and ignore the role of the Church and Her presence since Christ… That stirs the pot just as much as what you said.

 

[Sy_Noe]

Yes, but faith in what, or whom?

We have faith in Christ, as relayed to us by the Apostles. THAT is the Catholic starting point.

And even that is sometimes derived, at first (“primed” if you will) by a faith in natural reason which leads us to discern the veracity of the “biographies” of Jesus, and the Apostolic Tradition which tells us that Jesus endowed the Church with His authority and divine protection.

For me the starting point was faith in God. Then faith in the Son and Holy Spirit. And yes most definitely faith in reason as well.

 

[benhur]

Yes - there are such people too…but I hope that the above isn’t intended as an analogy to the Catholic Church hierarchy.

Peace
James

I know i just reread and thought it could be taken that way and i should have been more specific, as in I have seen too many movies, as about Caesar’s day. As far as any analogy ,I suppose all must beware of vain disputations and theologizing in balance with really living it .

 

[benhur]

It’s not a “possibility” that is needed.
Christ’s guarantee is what is needed in order for us not to fall for error.

The possibility is in who is the “us”.

 

[stewstew03]

No. That would be impossible.

Exactly – you know Him through the Church (and Scripture)!

Have you read “Practicing the Presence of God” by Brother Lawrence?

Yes.

 

[guanophore]

Guano addressed this much better. I suggest you read his post.

I am honored by your tolerance and willingness to attempt the discussion. I did have another thought which I left out because I got in a time crunch.

Faith and understanding

156 What moves us to believe is not the fact that revealed truths appear as true and intelligible in the light of our natural reason: we believe “because of the authority of God himself who reveals them, who can neither deceive nor be deceived”.28 So "that the submission of our faith might nevertheless be in accordance with reason, God willed that external proofs of his Revelation should be joined to the internal helps of the Holy Spirit."29 Thus the miracles of Christ and the saints, prophecies, the Church’s growth and holiness, and her fruitfulness and stability “are the most certain signs of divine Revelation, adapted to the intelligence of all”; they are “motives of credibility” (motiva credibilitatis), which show that the assent of faith is “by no means a blind impulse of the mind”.30

157 Faith is certain. It is more certain than all human knowledge because it is founded on the very word of God who cannot lie. To be sure, revealed truths can seem obscure to human reason and experience, but "the certainty that the divine light gives is greater than that which the light of natural reason gives."31 "Ten thousand difficulties do not make one doubt."32 (32 John Henry Cardinal Newman, Apologia pro vita sua (London: Longman, 1878) 239.)

158 “Faith seeks understanding”:33 it is intrinsic to faith that a believer desires to know better the One in whom he has put his faith, and to understand better what He has revealed; a more penetrating knowledge will in turn call forth a greater faith, increasingly set afire by love. The grace of faith opens "the eyes of your hearts"34 to a lively understanding of the contents of Revelation: that is, of the totality of God’s plan and the mysteries of faith, of their connection with each other and with Christ, the center of the revealed mystery. "The same Holy Spirit constantly perfects faith by his gifts, so that Revelation may be more and more profoundly understood."35 In the words of St. Augustine, "I believe, in order to understand; and I understand, the better to believe."36

This is a section of the Catechism that treats “doubt” and other topics. As Catholics we assume that there are many mysteries we do not understand, but the reason that we can accept what the Church teaches in spite of not being able to rationally grasp and explain it is because we believe that Jesus has revealed to the Church everything we need to know in this life. We may not “get” it, but because we know we can trust the Giver, we can follow in faith, and trust that understanding will come, if not in this lifetime, then in the next.

 

[SteveVH]

As Catholics we assume that there are many mysteries we do not understand, but the reason that we can accept what the Church teaches in spite of not being able to rationally grasp and explain it is because we believe that Jesus has revealed to the Church everything we need to know in this life. We may not “get” it, but because we know we can trust the Giver, we can follow in faith, and trust that understanding will come, if not in this lifetime, then in the next.

Much like the Apostles in the Bread of Life discourse when asked “will you also leave?”. They didn’t respond “No, Lord, we understand you completely”. They responded “To whom shall we go. You have the words of eternal life”. They believed because of the One who told them, not because they grasped what he was telling them.

 

[guanophore]

This kind of thing makes me wonder if you have it exactly backwards.

Christ is rescuing us out of and from error. Not keeping us from falling. If you maintain you are sinless and without error, you crash and burn on 1 John 1:8. We are not sinless. We are not unfallen. Any righteousness we have is a gift of God, not something we have that keeps us from falling into error.

“We rejoice in the grace of God, poured upon our lives
Lovingkindness has come to us, because of Jesus Christ”

Christ does also keep us from falling, and His grace is sufficient so that we do not have to sin. He was not just talking to hear himself when He said He would deliver us from sin. Here and now, as well as in the future. It is a myth that we must be slaves to sin.

But what I really want to address here is the difference between infallibility and impeccability. Yes, people are capable of sin, and do sin. But this has little relation (if any) to the Gift of Infallibily. Infallibility was given to the Churc (as a whole) rather than to individuals, and pertains directly to teaching error (we believe that teaching error will allow the gates of hell to hold against us). Error separates us from Christ, and thus, from the power that enables us to conquer. He is “all Truth” and He has promised to lead us into “all Truth”. Infallliblty prevents the Church from embracing and teaching error. Knowing the Truth can prevent individuals from sinning, but the fact that they do sin does not invalidate the gift.

Then you don't know Him, except through a long historical trail?

This is a good question. Unfortunately there are far too many Catholics who are sacramentalized but not evangelized. There are those who really do not know HIm, in the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of HIs sufferings.

The benefit of having the Apostolic Succession is that we have the opportunity to know Christ through those who have also known Him, and walked in His way. I am sure you have known people like this, and it has enriched your faith. Catholics have 2000 years of this kind of richness. The Sacred Tradition connects us with our faith continously bakc to those who walked with Him.

2 Tim 2:2
what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.

This is how we expect the Gospel to be made available to us. Paul committed it to Timothy,who was directed to commit it to faithful men who could teach others (us). This is the paradosis, or the handing down of the faith. Timothy was a recipient of the paradosis from his mother’s family also:

2 Tim 1:4-5
5 I am reminded of your sincere faith, a faith that dwelt first in your grandmother Lo’is and your mother Eunice and now, I am sure, dwells in you.

2 Tim 3:14-15
14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it 1

The faith dwells in our spiritual ancestors, and is taught to successive generations. This is how Jesus intended the faith to be passed -through discipleship. He promised to preserve this faith infallibly.

He is not allowed to introduce Himself to you now? That is against Church policy?

You are kidding, right?

I think the Catholic understanding of our relationship with Jesus is different. We don’t find anywhere in the history of the faith this concept of the “personal relationsihp”. It is not that we don’t have one, but we understand it primarily from the perspective of covenant. Not all Catholics experience their relationship emotionally the way modern Protetants do.

Fooey. We have faith in Christ as the gift of God, not as the gift of the apostles.

For us the two are not separated. We are all members of His One Body, and the gifts that He gave to the Apostles through His investment of time and training have been passed on to us infallibly preserved by the Holy Spirit. This way we can have confidence that our personal experiences are grounded in eternal Truth.

And natural reason is touched by the fall like everything else.

Yes, but we believe that Jesus came to redeem us from the effects of the Fall, and that we do not need to live enslaved to sin any longer.

 

[Tomyris]

Exactly – you know Him through the Church (and Scripture)!

This would have been a good time to drag the Eucharist into the discussion. It’s on my checklist of things we need to argue about before this thread is done.

As a Catholic you touch and taste Him. You know Him.

Yes.

Knowing Him on a daily basis outside of the Eucharist and directly, not as with Church as conduit, but directly, not ‘just through Scripture’ but directly, entering His presence and walking with Him and knowing He is there and He is neither silent nor inactive, inhaling and exhaling Christ, having Christ in me and Christ around me, Christ above me and Christ before me, Christ on my left hand and Christ on my left, beginning to apprehend what is the height and the width of the depth of the love of God, of the one who favors, having my eyes opened slowly and always walking into greater light, knowing He is there…

Practicing the Presence of God is a great book.

 

[GKC]

This would have been a good time to drag the Eucharist into the discussion. It’s on my checklist of things we need to argue about before this thread is done.

As a Catholic you touch and taste Him. You know Him.

Knowing Him on a daily basis outside of the Eucharist and directly, not as with Church as conduit, but directly, not ‘just through Scripture’ but directly, entering His presence and walking with Him and knowing He is there and He is neither silent nor inactive, inhaling and exhaling Christ, having Christ in me and Christ around me, Christ above me and Christ before me, Christ on my left hand and Christ on my left, beginning to apprehend what is the height and the width of the depth of the love of God, of the one who favors, having my eyes opened slowly and always walking into greater light, knowing He is there…

Practicing the Presence of God is a great book.

Got a portion of St. Patrick’s Breastplate Prayer, there.

GKC

 

[Tomyris]

Christ does also keep us from falling, and His grace is sufficient so that we do not have to sin. He was not just talking to hear himself when He said He would deliver us from sin. Here and now, as well as in the future. It is a myth that we must be slaves to sin.

Agreed. What you call ‘justification’ we split into ‘justification’ (initial) and sanctification (long term). He begins breaking the power of sin in our lives after breaking its legal authority over us at the Cross.

The benefit of having the Apostolic Succession is that we have the opportunity to know Christ through those who have also known Him, and walked in His way. I am sure you have known people like this, and it has enriched your faith. Catholics have 2000 years of this kind of richness. The Sacred Tradition connects us with our faith continously bakc to those who walked with Him. have confidence that our personal experiences are grounded in eternal Truth.

As you may know, this point is the one that I think removes the Reformed very far from the Lutheran-Catholic-Orthodox conception. Presbyterians vehemently rejected apostolic succession in the Reformation, I think mainly because of corruption., and finding the election, not the appointment of elders (not bishops) in the early church and the Bible. One of Trent’s reforms was that the clergy must be trained beyond the mechanics of the rituals, even educated, and some of the corruption of the bishops was halted. I recall travelling through Austria and learning that it was routine for the prince of a small kingdom to also be its bishop, and perhaps he had several other offices in the church. We do not see that today, and we see educated clergy. So I note these reforms have been effective, to some extent. What some of the clergy have learned and teach is another problem.

We pray for good clergy. Oftentimes we get it. I watched a seminary student a few weeks ago who definitely “has it” in terms of preaching gifts and bearing. I have also seen pastors with many years of experience who really should have done something useful with their lives. Gack. I think you guys have the same spread. Either system has its pluses and minuses, and I believe God uses both.

Yes, but we believe that Jesus came to redeem us from the effects of the Fall, and that we do not need to live enslaved to sin any longer.

Agreed. We have the mind of Christ. We are to put off the old man and put on the new man. We are no longer to think as children, live like pigs, or sin like it is who we are. That new creation thing. That higher calling and pressing in.

 

[Tomyris]

Got a portion of St. Patrick’s Breastplate Prayer, there.

GKC

Ok, I STOLE IT.

Dad-gum book worms anyway. Mumble-mumble mutter mutter.

 

[Tomyris]

In my balancing routine here let me say that I am not a wild-eyed individualist lone-ranger Christian.

It is important to know Christ through the Church, and sacramentally.

 

[GKC]

Ok, I STOLE IT.

Dad-gum book worms anyway. Mumble-mumble mutter mutter.

Book worm is the correct term.

But it’s also one of my favorite hymns.

GKC, librosa tinea

 

[PRmerger]

As a Catholic you touch and taste Him. You know Him.

Yes. We know Him so intimately we become One Flesh with Him.

 

[guanophore]

This would have been a good time to drag the Eucharist into the discussion. It's on my checklist of things we need to argue about before this thread is done. :rolleyes:

You crack me up!

Knowing Him on a daily basis outside of the Eucharist and directly, not as with Church as conduit, but directly, not ‘just through Scripture’ but directly, entering His presence and walking with Him and knowing He is there and He is neither silent nor inactive, inhaling and exhaling Christ, having Christ in me and Christ around me, Christ above me and Christ before me, Christ on my left hand and Christ on my left, beginning to apprehend what is the height and the width of the depth of the love of God, of the one who favors, having my eyes opened slowly and always walking into greater light, knowing He is there…

Practicing the Presence of God is a great book.

And a great experience, as you describe. But Jesus did not intend for these experiences to be separate. He wants us to know Him personally this way in our hearts but also communilly withing His One Body, the Church. He wants us to break that Holy Bread together,and sit together with His Holy Word.

The shadow and type of the Church is Israel. Yes, he did save individuals, but He saved them as part of a community, a community that He made visible in the world by their distiction from the world, with ritual celebrati

Agreed. What you call ‘justification’ we split into ‘justification’ (initial) and sanctification (long term). He begins breaking the power of sin in our lives after breaking its legal authority over us at the Cross.
Tomyris;12213593:

As you may know, this point is the one that I think removes the Reformed very far from the Lutheran-Catholic-Orthodox conception.

I may have an idea.

Presbyterians vehemently rejected apostolic succession in the Reformation, I think mainly because of corruption., and finding the election, not the appointment of elders (not bishops) in the early church and the Bible.

Well…we read the documents differently.

One of Trent's reforms was that the clergy must be trained beyond the mechanics of the rituals, even educated, and some of the co:Drruption of the bishops was halted.  I recall travelling through Austria and learning that it was routine for the prince of a small kingdom to also be its bishop, and perhaps he had several other offices in the church. We do not see that today, and we see educated clergy. So I note these reforms have been effective, to some extent.  What some of the clergy have learned and teach is another problem.

Yes, the lack of education was a serious problem, but it was also essential to prevent the clergy from holding secular offices.

 I think you guys have the same spread. Either system has its pluses and minuses, and I believe God uses both.

Yes, but the role of the priest is very different than it is for ministers.

 

[FathersKnowBest]

This kind of thing makes me wonder if you have it exactly backwards.

Christ is rescuing us out of and from error. Not keeping us from falling. If you maintain you are sinless and without error, you crash and burn on 1 John 1:8. We are not sinless. We are not unfallen. Any righteousness we have is a gift of God, not something we have that keeps us from falling into error.

“We rejoice in the grace of God, poured upon our lives
Lovingkindness has come to us, because of Jesus Christ”

You’re confusing infallibility with impeccability.

 

[FathersKnowBest]

If I may, this isn’t a matter of either knowing him through the faith handed down to us by the Apostles through a long historical trail or having a personal relationship with him each day of our lives. We must have both.

Exactly. It’s the old Catholic “both/and” premise, so common a response to the false dichotomies presented to us.

Tomi, you did not wake up one morning with the gift of faith. You received your faith from someone else; parents, grandparents, a friend, a pastor… Yes, faith is a gift from God but the fact is that you must have something to have faith in and that something was handed down to you, i.e. it was not given to you directly out of heaven.

As a Catholic I received the faith given by Jesus himself to the Apostles and handed down from generation to generation. My acceptance of it is truly a gift of God.

Just as St. Paul commanded that the faith be spread. Amazing, Catholicism is again so scriptural.

 

[FathersKnowBest]

The possibility is in who is the “us”.

Precisely.

And that is answered first through scripture (the Church, and more specifically as we see in scripture, the magisterium of the Church), and second through history (the Catholic Church of today is organically the very same Church as the first century Church started by Christ).

So, we have a reliable answer if we truly seek it.